Overrated?

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T

Trollaroo

Debutant
Nov 16, 2011
79
46
Melbourne
AFL Club
North Melbourne
After arguing at work with scum supporters for 8 hours today i found myself wondering does Bon have to much confidence in our young mids?
Does he prehaps overrate them?
I remeber reading an article not to long ago about how he would trust our mids against anyone else in the competition.
If he pumps up the kids it is quite possible they get big heads and think they are better then they actually are.
super gav anyone?
 
we got smashed in clearances and contested possessions.... dont think they can have big heads... wouldnt rate essendon as a top 8 team. they will be scraping in like us again
 
we lost to a team containing blokes like hibberd, crameri, mcveigh, hocking, hardingham, hooker, pears, jetta, myers, monfries, howlett
And Stanton lovett-murray and ryder all dominated.

We played so poorly on the weekend i feel dirty.
 

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Essendon have a habit of starting the season on fire, they had a full list to pick from, and they play good at etihad staidum (mainly at night) so it's still very hard to judge.
Let's judge at around round 7 or 8.
 
We played good for 15% of the match, inefficiently for 35% of the match, and poor for 50% of the match, yet we were beaten by a kick on the siren.

Injuries and bizarre tactics played their role.

We're better than Essendon, i'm sure of that, although i'm aiming for something a little higher than being better than Essendon in 2012. The game against Sydney in round 4 will tell us more.
 
Trollaroo said:
After arguing at work with scum supporters for 8 hours today i found myself wondering does Bon have to much confidence in our young mids?
Does he prehaps overrate them?
I remeber reading an article not to long ago about how he would trust our mids against anyone else in the competition.
If he pumps up the kids it is quite possible they get big heads and think they are better then they actually are.
super gav anyone?
Click to expand...

In best players on the weekend with 24 touches.

Have we now passed the baton to Cunnington.
 
If Wells and Boomer don't light things up we are terrible. When Wells went quiet we got flogged.

We have about 19 of Saturday nights 22 who would struggle to break 7.5
seconds over 50m. That would rank 18 in the AFL.
 
Trollaroo said:
After arguing at work with scum supporters for 8 hours today i found myself wondering does Bon have to much confidence in our young mids?
Does he prehaps overrate them?
I remeber reading an article not to long ago about how he would trust our mids against anyone else in the competition.
If he pumps up the kids it is quite possible they get big heads and think they are better then they actually are.
super gav anyone?
Click to expand...
Wells needs to go back into the middle. He should have been playing Bastinacs role on the weekend. But they may be being a little careful until he is matchfit.

Ziebell is our manchild who provides the real power and grunt in close.

With these two around the stoppages with Swallow we are a much better side. Harper or even JMac can quite easily play the role Wells did on Saturday as the release player.

TBH, our setup around the contests has been a little puzzling. We are still not maximising our resources IMO.
 
Husk said:
We are still not maximising our resources IMO.
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This needs to be written in letters 10 feet high.

We haven't played to an optimal game plan during Scotts tenure. We have played to a game plan that Brad believes (fanatically?) will make us a top 4 side.

I wouldn't say that I actually share his level of belief. I hope he's right.
 
Old Skool said:
This needs to be written in letters 10 feet high.

We haven't played to an optimal game plan during Scotts tenure. We have played to a game plan that Brad believes (fanatically?) will make us a top 4 side.

I wouldn't say that I actually share his level of belief. I hope he's right.
Click to expand...
It seems obvious though that over the course of the preseason that they have attempted to alter the game style to incorporate more run and carry off half back, which is indicated by the drastic increase in the use of handball, as well as the defensive personnel used on Saturday night. That this has occurred at the same time as a significant drop off in contested ball and clearance output is a touch concerning.

Maybe Scott is getting a bit ahead of himself? Perhaps it would be wiser to allow the core midfield group to further develop their contested ball usage and gain more experience before altering the style of game the coach wants the team to employ?

I guess we'll get a better indication of what's going on inside his head over the next 4-5 weeks. We could conceivably be 2-4 by then.
 
John Dorian said:
They played their best footy, despite the misses and we played very poorly, yet they only managed to scrape in by 2 points, leaving their fate in our hands by the end.

Don't be overly concerned.
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I heard these types of excuses last year, but look what happened when we played the top 2 sides!

We will again have our pants pulled down by them if we keep playing like we did this week.
 

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Old Skool said:
This needs to be written in letters 10 feet high.

We haven't played to an optimal game plan during Scotts tenure. We have played to a game plan that Brad believes (fanatically?) will make us a top 4 side.

I wouldn't say that I actually share his level of belief. I hope he's right.
Click to expand...

Talking with a couple of old ducks from Essendon on the way home and they made the point that this fanaticism in the face of mounting losses is exactly what they went through under Matthew Knights. He was renowned for having a one-way game plan. I'm starting to see similarities. Our bloke steadfastly refusing to shutdown opposition players who are having an influence. Dare I say it, but he could really use an assistant whose sole responsibility is to analyse the opposition and provide defensive options - something a certain former head coach did a little too well.
 
tazaa said:
we lost to a team containing blokes like hibberd, crameri, mcveigh, hocking, hardingham, hooker, pears, jetta, myers, monfries, howlett
And Stanton lovett-murray and ryder all dominated.

We played so poorly on the weekend i feel dirty.
Click to expand...

I think people are underselling Essendon a little. No they aren't top 4, but they played finals last year and no reason they haven't improved. They can be a dangerous team when their stars fire, especially Ryder.

I dont think Scott overrates the group but is simply persisting with players he thinks will make it, which is important (and there is not exactly anyone bashing the door down for selection) - maybe will work out in a couple of years time, but some of these players need to make rapid improvement.
 
Do we forget that Brad played for a bottom team that was built into a powerhouse.. Coached at a bottom team that was built into a powerhouse...

I think he would be able to recognise talent without overrating our list.
 
B Tron said:
It seems obvious though that over the course of the preseason that they have attempted to alter the game style to incorporate more run and carry off half back, which is indicated by the drastic increase in the use of handball, as well as the defensive personnel used on Saturday night. That this has occurred at the same time as a significant drop off in contested ball and clearance output is a touch concerning.

Maybe Scott is getting a bit ahead of himself? Perhaps it would be wiser to allow the core midfield group to further develop their contested ball usage and gain more experience before altering the style of game the coach wants the team to employ?

I guess we'll get a better indication of what's going on inside his head over the next 4-5 weeks. We could conceivably be 2-4 by then.
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Maybe it's just me and my "Old Skool" ways mate.

From Barassi to Kennedy to Pagan and even Laidley, the culture of the club have ingrained a flint hard blue collar perception in me that I am finding hard to shake in the face of modern "slick" football.

On saturday night, Essendon looked more like a traditional North side than we did. I'll give Hird this much, he's a realist about his list capabilities and plays to his advantages.
LT Smash said:
Talking with a couple of old ducks from Essendon on the way home and they made the point that this fanaticism in the face of mounting losses is exactly what they went through under Matthew Knights. He was renowned for having a one-way game plan. I'm starting to see similarities. Our bloke steadfastly refusing to shutdown opposition players who are having an influence. Dare I say it, but he could really use an assistant whose sole responsibility is to analyse the opposition and provide defensive options - something a certain former head coach did a little too well.
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Dean? I have always stood by the notion that he was a good defensive coach and I would happily have him back at the club to fill that role.

LeFtBehinD said:
Do we forget that Brad played for a bottom team that was built into a powerhouse.. Coached at a bottom team that was built into a powerhouse...
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A team which played a totally different style of football to what we are seeing now. You would need to have your eyes painted on if you couldn't see the Collingwood/Malthouse influence in Brads tactics.

LeFtBehinD said:
I think he would be able to recognise talent without overrating our list.
Click to expand...

He's done an excellent job with the list. No sane person could question that.
 
Old Skool said:
Maybe it's just me and my "Old Skool" ways mate.

From Barassi to Kennedy to Pagan and even Laidley, the culture of the club have ingrained a flint hard blue collar perception in me that I am finding hard to shake in the face of modern "slick" football.

On saturday night, Essendon looked more like a traditional North side than we did. I'll give Hird this much, he's a realist about his list capabilities and plays to his advantages.
Click to expand...
I agree completely.


I don't mid Scott changing things up and trying to add a modicum of flair and strategy to our game in response to changing game styles, but wtf happened to our contested game in the process? Our strength, our constant positive has disappeared over the course of a preseason and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Is it conditioning? Or is it the training regime employed to skill us up taking that focus away? I can't imagine that every team we have encountered so far has improved so much that they have surpassed our contested strength.
 
Old Skool said:
Maybe it's just me and my "Old Skool" ways mate.

From Barassi to Kennedy to Pagan and even Laidley, the culture of the club have ingrained a flint hard blue collar perception in me that I am finding hard to shake in the face of modern "slick" football.

On saturday night, Essendon looked more like a traditional North side than we did. I'll give Hird this much, he's a realist about his list capabilities and plays to his advantages.
Click to expand...

That's spot on I reckon. When you support North, hard ball gets and contested posession dominance is a given. Even in a side that's short on class, not that we are in this position. And we've recruited along those lines as well, but for some reason this year, all the way from preseason games, contested posession stats was a worry. But given that Bon acknowledged that after the Bulldogs game, he is clearly concerned by it, and it's not a product of his new game plan.

It may just be due to the fact that the players have been coached to improve their spread and delivery aspects, and a little less work on clearances, given we were pretty good in that area. But this should then improve over the next few weeks.

Essendon was extremely hard at it - anyone who denies that is not fair dinkum.

We were pretty good in the first quarter though - then gradually dropped off.
 
It's not just the inside work.

The handball to kick ratios also need to be analysed.

Event Horizon said:
Essendon was extremely hard at it - anyone who denies that is not fair dinkum.

We were pretty good in the first quarter though - then gradually dropped off.
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Essendon knew they had bigger bodies at the contest, rolled the dice and ran forward of the contest in the belief they would win more contests and drive forward. It paid off and this is the primary reason for their win.

We tried to play slick and throw the ball around, and our unforced errors in particular, were our undoing.

Essendon played for meterage by foot (222K/128HB/105M), we played for possession and run (184K/154HB/80M).
 
B Tron said:
It seems obvious though that over the course of the preseason that they have attempted to alter the game style to incorporate more run and carry off half back, which is indicated by the drastic increase in the use of handball, as well as the defensive personnel used on Saturday night. That this has occurred at the same time as a significant drop off in contested ball and clearance output is a touch concerning.

Maybe Scott is getting a bit ahead of himself? Perhaps it would be wiser to allow the core midfield group to further develop their contested ball usage and gain more experience before altering the style of game the coach wants the team to employ?
Click to expand...
I think your first para is spot on B Tron. Let's also not forget JZ was missing from the Richmond game (Rd 24) and the Carlton game.

But, I don't see it as Brad getting ahead of himself. Rather, I see it as him adding in another important and necessary dimension to our game plan.

I'd like to think it is a temporary thing, but getting some offensive run and carry into our game plan is a necessary complement to the tough, contested footy. Blue collar alone won't cut it if we want to win a premiership. I reckon the 'premiership plan' involves both.

I suspect there is a bit of 'wax on, wax off' going on, in terms of team development, by which I mean certain areas get a bit more attention than others, at times. While I expect the coaches hope players will simply add this to existing strengths, an inexperienced team tends to replace, rather than add.

In short, I see this as a phase in development so that, even when we don't win contested possession, we're still in a winning position. I expect the pendulum to swing back again in due course as the kids learn to put both elements together.
 
Hopefully it works out as such Kimbo as having both aspects of the game, outside strength and inside strength, will see us go along way.

Not sure that our boys are developed enough yet to do it, but I guess we'll see.Maybe it would be better for them to solidify what they do do well before attaching to that?
 
Early days yet, but we seem to be a more behind the ball in our setup this year.

Last year we always had the HFF pushing up to the wing to give us more numbers at the contest. I wondered then and again now if this artificially inflated our clearances a bit. Last year we would often win it forward, but then be outnumbered as teams dropped their spare man back.

Perhaps Bon has decided to change things up a bit.
 
tazaa said:
we lost to a team containing blokes like hibberd, crameri, mcveigh, hocking, hardingham, hooker, pears, jetta, myers, monfries, howlett
And Stanton lovett-murray and ryder all dominated.

We played so poorly on the weekend i feel dirty.
Click to expand...

Dont come on this board much but are you implying the bolded are bad? If so I dont see how.
 

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