Peter Gordon explores Swiss appeal and injunction on suspension

[Jimthegreat]

It does specifically state that the players involvement in the courts was a big reason for the delay (CAS Arbitral Award, para 169). The players were definitely cited as not having been parties in the Federal Court case - and didnt want to be parties to the case (Essendon & Hird v the CEO of ASADA, para 36 & 37). The case was always Essendon and Hird v ASADA, and then on appeal just Hird v ASADA.

Peter Gordon also apparently believes that the AFL Anti Doping Code should apply as it stood in 2010, and not the revised version in 2015 that allowed the CAS hearing to be heard "de novo". Gordon believes this gives ASADA/WADA an unfair double whack if the first doesnt take. CAS addressed this in para 114 of its Award which says it understood player contracts to include changes to AFL rules and regulations including the AFL Anti Doping Code, thus allowing it to proceed under the 2015 code rather than the 2010 edition.

(CAS also noted in para 114 that the hearing would have been de novo even if the AFL code didnt allow for it, since CAS believes a national bodies regulations must reflect the WADC without substantial change, and not including a provision for de novo hearings would be considered a substantial change by CAS. CAS believes its obligations arent to determine the merits of an appeal but to determine whether in fact an anti doping violation has occurred.)

CAS would've worked out that if Essendon won the won Federal Court case the players would've benefitted. It was done on the PLAYER'S behalf. Essendon players are THE major part of the Essendon Football Club hence no chance they weren't involved in the delay. CAS weren't going to buy the fact the players separated themselves.

2010 version makes no mention at all of any agreed guidelines of how a WADA appeal is to proceed at the CAS. As it's "silent" on that aspect the CAS operates in it's usual "de novo" way as it does with every appeal all round the world. Nothing in the 2010 code to say any appeal to the CAS has to be on an "error of law" basis. That was only for appeals to the AFL Appeals Tribunal. Doesn't carry over to the CAS. Just because the 2010 code was an "error of law" at the Appeals Tribunal doesn't make it as such at the CAS. Gordon, Essendon and the players knew that anyway before it went to the CAS, accepted it and the hearing went ahead as it usually does. Why do they think the Swiss Federal Court will think any differently? Now they're looking for desperate arguments. The only change in the 2015 AFL anti-Doping code is now an appeal to the AFL Appeal Tribunal is now "de novo" too.

 

[Kwality]

In addition to that, if they had dared question what was going on, either the athlete or family members - or both - would have been imprisoned or would have disappeared.

No comparison.

The players actions are comparable with a 16 year old girl - wusses or desperadoes?

Andreea Raducan: 'I lost a medal but in my soul I know it was mine' .... only Jobe know how he differs from this 16 yo, one on the world stage !!

The 16-year-old, who weighs less than six stones and stands just 4ft 9ins, has won sympathy across the world after being stripped of her gold in the all-round competition, the blue riband event of women's gymnastics.

She tested positive for the banned stimulant pseudo-ephedrine after being given a Nurofen Cold and Flu tablet by her team doctor. The decision by the International Olympics Committee to deny her the medal was upheld at a four-hour court of arbitration hearing on Wednesday.

 

[Kwality]

If there are injunctions and the players free to play, what does the AFL do about the fact Essendon have a larger list that the rest of the comp, and a bigger salary cap thanks tot he top-ups? They can't just cancel the contracts.

(Don't bother with COLA comments, we've heard them all before).

Its happened before, when the Eagles joined the AFL they were limited to 35 players & the rest had 53 - the FIX is cultural,
The Fix(ture) is In
http://www.bigfooty.com/news/2015/10/the-fixture-is-in/

 

[Bone71]

No, the players consented to a program involving a number of substances. Question is did they exactly which of these substances was administered in each injection when it was given? If not were they simply to guess on their ASADA test forms or just not write it down since it was optional?

It is the individuals responsibility to know what goes into their body. They knew they were required to list them when tested, not knowing what substances they were administered in the week leading up to a test doesn't excuse them it just makes them more culpable.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

inb4mxettformwasoptional

 

[Kwality]

the lawyers know people at afl clubs (e.g Balme) are semi-******ed so they keep telling them they can 'win'. money for jam. cha ching!

You didn't hear what Balme said.
I'm certain we need to retain WADA & agree by lawyer shopping you will get one who tells you what you want/need to hear.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Errors of fact (eg.the Essendon players delayed the process through their ferderal court action). They were not a party to that action. Essendon and James Hird were. That is a simpleerror of fact.

CAS weren't buying that. If Essendon won that case it was the players that benefited. Last I knew Essendon were a big part of the Essendon football club, actually THE integral part as without them you have no club. Trying to separate them from the Court action was a technicality that no-one was going to buy. Players and their Player's Association actually had to tell the club, "no, don't go to court as you're delaying the process unnecessarily", not simply just separate themselves. Given they didn't they were then a part of the Court action like it or not given the benefit a Court victory would bring. Not a hope in hell of getting that up.

 

[mxett]

I think the Cas may have asked that question you asked, they weren't satisfied with the answers they got.

im not sure i place much weight on this conclusion given some of their others. Such as the team's good start to 2012 showed they were doping, and McVeigh's lack of tan 4 years ago proves he didnt receive a melatonin injection.

 

[LoungeLizard]

im not sure i place much weight on this conclusion given some of their others. Such as the team's good start to 2012 showed they were doping, and McVeigh's lack of tan 4 years ago proves he didnt receive a melatonin injection.

It doesn't matter what weight you place on it.
You are telling us what you think the players said/thought, the Cas know what the players said.
And here you are bringing up McVeigh, wow, even you know he lied.

 

[mxett]

It doesn't matter what weight you place on it.
You are telling us what you think the players said/thought, the Cas know what the players said.
And here you are bringing up McVeigh, wow, even you know he lied.

so you think their conclusions about McVeigh's tan and essendon's first 8 winning games prove doping?

 

[LoungeLizard]

so you think their conclusions about McVeigh's tan and essendon's first 8 winning games prove doping?

I think the Cas didn't use those 2 points as proof, i think the Cas weighed up all the evidence, then made their decision.
You are just trying to justify what the players did in your own head.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

im not sure i place much weight on this conclusion given some of their others. Such as the team's good start to 2012 showed they were doping, and McVeigh's lack of tan 4 years ago proves he didnt receive a melatonin injection.

Firstly, it was melanotan not melatonin. Secondly, a lack of a tan is not an indication he did not receive an injection. I would imagine you would need a course of injections to develop a tan. Thirdly he said he received the injection to help him sleep. Melanotan does not help you sleep. Melatonin does but you don't inject it - it is taken orally. Fourthly, McVeigh was adamant he only ever received vitamin injections but now he says he received melanotan. Mxett, only a fool would use McVeigh as an example of an honest footballer.

 

[mxett]

I think the Cas didn't use those 2 points as proof, i think the Cas weighed up all the evidence, then made their decision.
You are just trying to justify what the players did in your own head.

I think theyve weighed up many elements and made some startling conclusions along the way

 

[LoungeLizard]

I think theyve weighed up many elements and made some startling conclusions along the way

Of course you would.
And i bet you also thought the AFL tribunal got it right.

 

[Jimthegreat]

so you think their conclusions about McVeigh's tan and essendon's first 8 winning games prove doping?

CAS know they doped. They know they cheated.

Those players grew extraordinarily over a period of a few months. It was the first thing Jobe noticed in 2011 when he came back from a holiday. No-one grows like that. Same blokes that looked like "runts" during the 2011 EF come out looking like the Hulk early in 2012. You can bet your arse they got more than TB4 like Cronulla did. ASADA know it but couldn't pin it to individuals like they could for TB4. Almost back like when the underworld figure Al Capone being jailed for tax fraud when they couldn't get him for underworld murders. Knew he did it but because he covered his track well, couldn't get the evidence. Good chance you'll find Essendon were loaded up with hexarelin (Dank was charged by ASADA with that) and CJC-1295 but couldn't pin the evidence on the players with a lack of records.

Accept that they cheated. That's the bottom line. All the spin in the world won't change that.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

I think theyve weighed up many elements and made some startling conclusions along the way

No. They have looked at all the evidence and there was only one answer that pulled all the evidence together and that is that they received TB4. The players also erred in having a collective defence. That is their problem, not the CAS's. There are no startling conclusions, just conclusions that they knowingly doped.

 

[Kwality]

Firstly, it was melanotan not melatonin. Secondly, a lack of a tan is not an indication he did not receive an injection. I would imagine you would need a course of injections to develop a tan. Thirdly he said he received the injection to help him sleep. Melanotan does not help you sleep. Melatonin does but you don't inject it - it is taken orally. Fourthly, McVeigh was adamant he only ever received vitamin injections but now he says he received melanotan. Mxett, only a fool would use McVeigh as an example of an honest footballer.

McVeighs very public responses are a guide to the group think leading the Essendon 34, from go to whoa, & they haven't got to whoa yet.

I understand that Gubby Allen had to explain to McVeigh what the CAS decision meant - McVeigh did not comprehend it for himself:
Mark McVeigh is no longer at Essendon. He is a coach at Greater Western Sydney. On the day the WADA ruling was handed down, he was ripped from the oval where he was working with his players and sent home. He can’t contact the club or even communicate football opinions to his players by the phone.

 

[Proper Gander]

so you think their conclusions about McVeigh's tan and essendon's first 8 winning games prove doping?

No, and neither does CAS. I think you may have missed the strands towards a cable analysis.

 

[mxett]

Of course you would.
And i bet you also thought the AFL tribunal got it right.

Im not uncomfortable with the overall conclusion, except I dont think the players were complicit

 

[LoungeLizard]

Im not uncomfortable with the overall conclusion, except I dont think the players were complicit

That's fair.
If you want to think the players are not cheats, go for it.
But i doubt you will change one persons mind on here.
For what it's worth, i think they knew what was happening, but i still don't put all the blame on them, i still think the club is the blame.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

CAS know they doped. They know they cheated.

Those players grew extraordinarily over a period of a few months. It was the first thing Jobe noticed in 2011 when he came back from a holiday. No-one grows like that. Same blokes that looked like "runts" during the 2011 EF come out looking like the Hulk early in 2012. You can bet your arse they got more than TB4 like Cronulla did. ASADA know it but couldn't pin it to individuals like they could for TB4. Almost back like when the underworld figure Al Capone being jailed for tax fraud when they couldn't get him for underworld murders. Knew he did it but because he covered his track well, couldn't get the evidence. Good chance you'll find Essendon were loaded up with hexarelin (Dank was charged by ASADA with that) and CJC-1295 but couldn't pin the evidence on the players with a lack of records.

Accept that they cheated. That's the bottom line. All the spin in the world won't change that.

This is spot on. The player were injected with more powerful substances. You know I've been saying that since day 1. I have evidence that Dank told an ASADA witness this directly although it is hearsay evidence. This witness told me that ASADA had more on TB4 and so decided to pursue this rather than these other drugs. They wanted the drug with the strongest evidence to be used exclusively. The other drugs would only give the defence more ammunition as the evidence of their use was more flimsy due to the fact of destroyed or hidden records.

 

[Demons09]

I think theyve weighed up many elements and made some startling conclusions along the way

The club you support are drug cheats those are the facts move on.

 

[Kwality]

Im not uncomfortable with the overall conclusion, except I dont think the players were complicit

Why did all the 34 lie ? Complicit or coincidence?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

The players actions are comparable with a 16 year old girl - wusses or desperadoes?

Andreea Raducan: 'I lost a medal but in my soul I know it was mine' .... only Jobe know how he differs from this 16 yo, one on the world stage !!

The 16-year-old, who weighs less than six stones and stands just 4ft 9ins, has won sympathy across the world after being stripped of her gold in the all-round competition, the blue riband event of women's gymnastics.

She tested positive for the banned stimulant pseudo-ephedrine after being given a Nurofen Cold and Flu tablet by her team doctor. The decision by the International Olympics Committee to deny her the medal was upheld at a four-hour court of arbitration hearing on Wednesday.

Lol

Typical brave souls of WADA, upholding the good

Heroes

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Why did all the 34 lie ? Complicit or coincidence?