Discussion Political Correctness

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

So what happens when it becomes law?

Man investigated by police for retweeting transgender limerick

A docker from Humberside has been investigated by police over a limerick he posted on Twitter after an officer claimed it constitutes a ‘hate incident’ against transgender people.

www.telegraph.co.uk

It hasn't though, has it? And jordan peterson is a professor at a university with young and vulnerable students attending, it IS common decency to just call people by their preferred gender rather than getting all 'Well aCtUaLlY tHaT oFfEnDs My RiGhT tO fReE sPeEcH' on them, it's different than people in non government institutions dealing with each other on a day to day basis, peterson was being antagonistic and he knows it. I don't think we should stifle debate, but having watched him on a number of talk shows/podcasts it's definitely something that he could just say, 'Look I don't agree with it but I'll do it just to make you happy'. He himself said he has no issue with it if he felt the gender x person's intentions were sincere... which is kinda shitty to just assume you can surmise all the factors leading up to their decision to identify as a different gender.

Also another thing on peterson, the truth is he comes from enough privilege that his 'pull yourself up from the bootstraps' position on psychology seems, to him, to be totally legitimate, and it is for a lot of people, young men in particular (his main audience), but it doesn't work for people with greater underlying systemic problems, such as I don't know, women for starters, who don't flock to his philosophy at the rate men do, and that's because it doesn't work as well for them. Some things can't be resolved by a stiff upper lip, some things require external rather than internal change, which peterson avoids acknowledging all too frequently.

 

[Noidenous]

It hasn't though, has it? And jordan peterson is a professor at a university with young and vulnerable students attending, it IS common decency to just call people by their preferred gender rather than getting all 'Well aCtUaLlY tHaT oFfEnDs My RiGhT tO fReE sPeEcH' on them, it's different than people in non government institutions dealing with each other on a day to day basis, peterson was being antagonistic and he knows it. I don't think we should stifle debate, but having watched him on a number of talk shows/podcasts it's definitely something that he could just say, 'Look I don't agree with it but I'll do it just to make you happy'. He himself said he has no issue with it if he felt the gender x person's intentions were sincere... which is kinda shitty to just assume you can surmise all the factors leading up to their decision to identify as a different gender.

Also another thing on peterson, the truth is he comes from enough privilege that his 'pull yourself up from the bootstraps' position on psychology seems, to him, to be totally legitimate, and it is for a lot of people, young men in particular (his main audience), but it doesn't work for people with greater underlying systemic problems, such as I don't know, women for starters, who don't flock to his philosophy at the rate men do, and that's because it doesn't work as well for them. Some things can't be resolved by a stiff upper lip, some things require external rather than internal change, which peterson avoids acknowledging all too frequently.

A clinical psychologist isn't equipped to determine sincerity?

It is their job to analyse the factors leading up to identification and the subjects rationalisation process.

 

[gringo2011]

Ancestry, 23+me (or whatever its called) and those commercial genetic tests have been proven as largely guesswork.

Multiple identical twins have had massively varying results in the locale of their supposed origin.

It's not the genetic testing, it's direct line ancestry. The Ancestry.com genetic testing is just for fun, you might as well burn your money. I wouldn't want anyone seeing my shame genes anyway. We had married first cousins in 18th century England. It's not that far back.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

It's a shame Jordan Peterson is not well at the moment. Great man and thinker. Would have been very useful for many suffering mental problems around the world due to CV.

 

[gringo2011]

A clinical psychologist isn't equipped to determine sincerity?

It is their job to analyse the factors leading up to identification and the subjects rationalisation process.

My wife is just about to finish her placements and become a clinical psychologist at the start of next year. I would suggest from her and the three other clinical psychologists that we know.....maybe they are not all that insightful. As you get more experienced you probably get quite good at making quick calls on people's pathologies but realistically they just try to categorise people according to their neurosis. I wouldn't tell her, but it's a pseudoscience IMO. Most people just want someone to unload on. They probably help a lot of people but not in the structural way that they imagine. If you've fronted up you are probably in the process of dealing with your issues. And some people literally just want someone to confide in and not actually work through things.

 

[gringo2011]

It's a shame Jordan Peterson is not well at the moment. Great man and thinker. Would have been very useful for many suffering mental problems around the world due to CV.

Is he sick or still recovering from the drug addiction?

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Is he sick or still recovering from the drug addiction?

Apparantly he is back working.

 

[jwikked]

It's a shame Jordan Peterson is not well at the moment. Great man and thinker. Would have been very useful for many suffering mental problems around the world due to CV.

I bought his book last year but haven't read it yet. I quite like listening to him talk about religion, it's interesting to see the stories taken apart like that.
His so called rules (I can't remember how many, there are more than the 12 from the book) are pretty good rules I would have thought, but after the first 20 or 30 they seem to be less interesting "always pet a cat"

 

[Noidenous]

It's not the genetic testing, it's direct line ancestry. The Ancestry.com genetic testing is just for fun, you might as well burn your money. I wouldn't want anyone seeing my shame genes anyway. We had married first cousins in 18th century England. It's not that far back.

Ok, misunderstood usage of ancestry. My mistake.

My wife is just about to finish her placements and become a clinical psychologist at the start of next year. I would suggest from her and the three other clinical psychologists that we know.....maybe they are not all that insightful. As you get more experienced you probably get quite good at making quick calls on people's pathologies but realistically they just try to categorise people according to their neurosis. I wouldn't tell her, but it's a pseudoscience IMO. Most people just want someone to unload on. They probably help a lot of people but not in the structural way that they imagine. If you've fronted up you are probably in the process of dealing with your issues. And some people literally just want someone to confide in and not actually work through things.

What is the current psycho-analysis requirement for the transgender green-light?

 

[gringo2011]

Ok, misunderstood usage of ancestry. My mistake.

What is the current psycho-analysis requirement for the transgender green-light?

How would I know, I have no interest in Psych. One of my friends from our younger days is married to a woman who started a gender clinic at the RCH and gets absolutely harassed by nutters threatening her. The Murdoch press go after her all the time and people have threatened their kids and them. It's a pretty fraught subject and not something I have any knowledge about other than hearing what she does and not really understanding it still. It goes along the lines of giving hormones to young people before they become masculine or feminine in puberty though I think. It certainly makes people upset.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

A clinical psychologist isn't equipped to determine sincerity?

It is their job to analyse the factors leading up to identification and the subjects rationalisation process.

They're not his clients, they're just random students he meets on campus (not even HIS students), so no I would say making a snap judgement on a person's sincerity would be pretty hard in this situation, especially when dealing with the many layers of the human psyche. We're not talking about whether two people bumping into each other in the street that say, 'yeah we should catch up for a coffee' are being sincere, it's much more complicated. Also what even IS sincerity? That itself is not black and white, maybe the two people do want to catch up, but remembered last time they did so it was awkward and a crap hang out.

 

[Noidenous]

How would I know, I have no interest in Psych. One of my friends from our younger days is married to a woman who started a gender clinic at the RCH and gets absolutely harassed by nutters threatening her. The Murdoch press go after her all the time and people have threatened their kids and them. It's a pretty fraught subject and not something I have any knowledge about other than hearing what she does and not really understanding it still. It goes along the lines of giving hormones to young people before they become masculine or feminine in puberty though I think. It certainly makes people upset.

That's fine, not expecting you to have completed the same course by virtue of sharing a house.

Just thought you may have had passing knowledge of the current standard by-proxy.

 

[Noidenous]

They're not his clients, they're just random students he meets on campus (not even HIS students), so no I would say making a snap judgement on a person's sincerity would be pretty hard in this situation, especially on a topic with so many layers within the human psyche. We're not talking about whether two people bumping into each other in the street that say, 'yeah we should catch up for a coffee' are being sincere, it's much more complicated. Also what even IS sincerity? That itself is not black and white, maybe the two people do want to catch up, but remembered last time they did so it was awkward and a crap hang out.

I think you have missed the point.

Until he -- a qualified psychoanalyst -- is comfortable someone is sincere, Peterson does not wish to be subjected to their expectation of pronouns and takes umbrage at the legality of such even coming into question.

Your argument comes very close to this framework:

You do not know me as you are not omniscient and privy to my precise thought patterns.
Yet I think I know myself, knowing I am also not omniscient.
You must comply with my wishes.

How absurd is that?

 

[gringo2011]

That's fine, not expecting you to have completed the same course by virtue of sharing a house.

Just thought you may have had passing knowledge of the current standard by-proxy.

My wife is doing early childhood and developmental psych. She probably knows but if I started asking her about it she'd think I was a weirdo. I think she chose kids psych because trying to gaslight an ignorant middle aged loser wasn't getting any traction. She's going after them early.

 

[gringo2011]

I think you have missed the point.

Until he -- a qualified psychoanalyst -- is comfortable someone is sincere, Peterson does not wish to be subjected to their expectation of pronouns and takes umbrage at the legality of such even coming into question.

Your argument comes very close to this framework:

You do not know me as you are not omniscient and privy to my precise thought patterns.
Yet I think I know myself, knowing I am also not omniscient.
You must comply with my wishes.

How absurd is that?

Funny enough, our daughter has a friend in their friend group who is non binary. I was trying to work out what this person's gender was before they came over for a party. The young people are all over it but it was like that Abbott and Costello "who's on first" skit when I was trying to work out to be prepared on how to greet them. She couldn't understand my ignorance and I couldn't understand what the **** she was on about. It turned out it was just some young arty hippy looking guy that wore a girly top but wanted to be unlabelled. It made it confusing for a middle age person to work out what to call them, but she told me to shut up and call them by their first name which actually seemed to work. I'm pretty liberal minded but I was stressing about ****ing it up, seemed like a nice kid though compared to some of the little dickheads.

 

[Johnnyrayflamingo]

Yeah, JP is back.

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

I think you have missed the point.

Until he -- a qualified psychoanalyst -- is comfortable someone is sincere, Peterson does not wish to be subjected to their expectation of pronouns and takes umbrage at the legality of such even coming into question.

Your argument comes very close to this framework:

You do not know me as you are not omniscient and privy to my precise thought patterns.
Yet I think I know myself, knowing I am also not omniscient.
You must comply with my wishes.

How absurd is that?

nah I haven't missed the point, it's literally what peterson said in an interview, that if he feels the person asking him (they were talking about students on campus that he interacts with, both his own students and random ones) is sincere in their desire to be called a different gender from the one they project to be, then he will do so, if he doesn't think so he won't. That's the point I made initially, that is the context of my point and the one you replied to. Moving the goalposts ain't gonna work here.

 

[gringo2011]

Yeah, JP is back.

Surprised he needs someone else to do lines for him.

 

[jwikked]

Yeah, JP is back.

Seeing the cover of the book being completed before the book has been written reminds me of bands in high school that spent all their time designing album covers and no time playing music

 

[Noidenous]

nah I haven't missed the point, it's literally what peterson said in an interview, that if he feels the person asking him (they were talking about students on campus that he interacts with, both his own students and random ones) is sincere in their desire to be called a different gender from the one they project to be, then he will do so, if he doesn't think so he won't. That's the point I made initially, that is the context of my point and the one you replied to. Moving the goalposts ain't gonna work here.

So after analysing a student's work, he has no idea how much of it is steeped in ideology?

Is a single sentence even 'having a coffee' level exposure?

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

So after analysing a student's work, he has no idea how much of it is steeped in ideology?

Is a single sentence even 'having a coffee' level exposure?

1. All work is ideology
2. His main main issue is with people using it for political ends, which he somehow thinks automatically lessens its sincerity (it doesn't, these things aren't mutually exclusive, i.e. the civil rights movement for example).
3. As mentioned above, some of these students are people he bumps into on campus during gatherings and speeches, he doesn't know them, but he won't call them by their preferred gender because he feels their politics infringe on his freedoms, he uses the sincerity card as a catch 22.
4. He's a dick.
5. I don't think it should be law that he use the preferred pronouns, but in the same way that you wouldn't hire a waiter that farts on customers in their trial shift, you wouldn't hire a professor that makes a big song and dance about his freedom rather than just calling the short haired kid that was born with women bits 'he/him'.

He's the embodiment of old white men feeling threatened by a changing landscape and being dicks about it because it doesn't include them in the decision making process, even though it has nothing to do with them.

 

[Noidenous]

4. He's a dick.

And there we have it.

If you think there isnt a stark difference between genuine cases of gender dysmorphia and morons who claim they are transgender because it is supposedly the new Punk, then it isn't Peterson who happens to be the dick.

You are the equivalent of a mallcore kiddy who calls someone an arseh*le because they won't call their favorite band Metal.

Is Jonathan Yaniv sincere?

 

[George]

1. All work is ideology
2. His main main issue is with people using it for political ends, which he somehow thinks automatically lessens its sincerity (it doesn't, these things aren't mutually exclusive, i.e. the civil rights movement for example).
3. As mentioned above, some of these students are people he bumps into on campus during gatherings and speeches, he doesn't know them, but he won't call them by their preferred gender because he feels their politics infringe on his freedoms, he uses the sincerity card as a catch 22.
4. He's a dick.
5. I don't think it should be law that he use the preferred pronouns, but in the same way that you wouldn't hire a waiter that farts on customers in their trial shift, you wouldn't hire a professor that makes a big song and dance about his freedom rather than just calling the short haired kid that was born with women bits 'he/him'.

He's the embodiment of old white men feeling threatened by a changing landscape and being dicks about it because it doesn't include them in the decision making process, even though it has nothing to do with them.

I'm not getting involved in this debate at all but I want to point out the reason he is pushing back on the restrictions to free speech is because his country, Canada, almost passed (or actually may have passed) a bill for it to be law to call people by what they identify as.

He has stressed before that this has more to do with his own government's supposed way of drip feeding the removal of free speech.

Basically a thinking of 'well if we adhere to this then what's next?'.

Personally I couldn't give a stuff about this specifically and would call anyone whatever they prefer but I can see where he is coming from regarding overbearing governments.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Milgram Experiment

Yeah i thought about that after i made that post too. Pretty amazing how people assume their role.

 

[tomjoad]

There's some really good points on this thread. It's been mostly enjoyable reading.
I'm not going to throw my hat into any of the rings, I have my theories, and I'm happy not to share them...they are, after all opinions...so who gives a shit.
What I will say is that the majority of people are fairly reasonable and open, and know when to either relent in their argument, or progress. It doesn't mean a person's mind is changed either way, or after the fact...it just means that we're not all liked minded (and thank f*CK too)
However the minority whack jobs on both sides are generally the loudest and most fundamental in their views, which unfortunately gets the most attention, and as a result we get sucked into their orbits and are judged accordingly.
Unfortunately thus far there is not a cure for being an arseh*le or for being stupid...and that is where the problems manifest.
Not long ago for example my mate was racially abused by a gay dude. When I intervened on my friends behalf, the gay guy started his homophobia nonsense (I hadn't mentioned sexual preferences or choice at any stage, because I quite frankly don't care about people I don't know. It saves time)
Now, because homosexuality is more of a topic than the less cool racist topic, those around us started picking their sides accordingly, and at our detriment. Nothing happened, just words from those weighing in from a point of stupidity and ignorance in relation to the event, but it spoke volumes to me.

How does one get called a homophobe afterall, when decrying the topic of racism?

For me the problem is language and our understanding of it...it seems no one really knows what they're saying anymore, and weighing in...not because they understand, but because of being sucked into the siege like orbits of morons.
Silence will end up being the loudest voice of all soon enough.