Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

[King Huskii]

I am trying to understand your meaning, lack of full stops has me trying...

He said 'why do you hate muslims?'

That is a personal attack.

If you can show me the clear negative stereotype I will agree - if it is 'reading between the lines' that is not clear.

Have I said on here I am a Christian? Should I assume you are a Muslim if you defend them?

You paraphrased what I said and you assumed wrong about Sheriff. Very wrong.

 

[poshman]

You paraphrased what I said and you assumed wrong about Sheriff. Very wrong.

Sorry you are correct - what you said wasn't a question it was a statement which is what made it a personal attack. Thank you for correcting that.

You really hate Muslims don't you

This is a personal attack. It isn't needed.

 

[poshman]

You paraphrased what I said and you assumed wrong about Sheriff. Very wrong.

I was upfront saying his post was unclear - if you can point out the part that I read wrong or assumed wrong I am willing to discuss.

 

[Taylor]

Correct. And that child should enjoy all the rights and benefits that citizenship entails.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Sherriff Incorporated]

I am trying to understand your meaning, lack of full stops has me trying...

He said 'why do you hate muslims?'

That is a personal attack.

If you can show me the clear negative stereotype I will agree - if it is 'reading between the lines' that is not clear.

Have I said on here I am a Christian? Should I assume you are a Muslim if you defend them?

Read any of your his views on Palestine and the fact he assumes muslim migrants support muslim extremism and the far left when in the vast majority of cases the exact opposite is true. Eg. Most muslims don't support the far left as evident by how badly the Greens do in highly multicultural seats like Fowler where the Greens got 4% of the 1st preference votes last election. .

I was referencing how you advocate Christian values and make mention to how many of the people you have contact with helping others are Christian.I currently work with Christian and muslim refugees. What I'm saying is the negative stereotyping helps no one and I'm pointing out how the person you've advocated for here negatively stereotyoes all the time because no

I don'thave the slightest problem with Christians who don't dictate how others whould behave and ivs the same with muslims. Somehpw the poster you support assumes a Labor politician advocating for the stopping of bombing in Gaza has extreme views. Its not extreme to want pressure on Israel to stop bombing just like its not extreme to note that Hamas' refusal to do a hostage//prisoner swap is also prolonging war and deaths in Gaza.

 

[Sherriff Incorporated]

I was upfront saying his post was unclear - if you can point out the part that I read wrong or assumed wrong I am willing to discuss.

I just have. No. It wasn't unclear. You've talked bout how many of the people you come across doing great work in society are Christian which I can 100% agree that's its true many Christians do some great charity work. However you then agree with someone who constantly negatively stereotypes a different group. In fact the actual stereotype quoted by that poster is pure utter rubbish and the exact opposite of the truth as many muslim migrants (in fact most) are escaping muslim extremism and thats why they are migrating to a new country.

 

[King Huskii]

I just have. No. It wasn't unclear. You've talked bout how many of the people you come across doing great work in society are Christian which I can 100% agree that's its true many Christians do some great charity work. However you then agree with someone who constantly negatively stereotypes a different group. In fact the actual stereotype quoted by that poster is pure utter rubbish and the exact opposite of the truth as many muslim migrants (in fact most) are escaping muslim extremism and thats why they are migrating to a new country.

Both you and Wahoo have pointed out his hypocrisy.

 

[Episode IV]

This a distinction that you have drawn yourself. Not the article. Nor the group campaigning in Labor seats.

Is it?
"A spokesperson for The Muslim Vote told the ABC the "grassroots" campaign group had been formed from a desire to "mobilise the Muslim community to vote as a bloc in the next federal election, predominantly on the issue of justice in Palestine"

Seems fairly clear who they're targeting. They're not using general terms here.
I wouldn't mind seeing some of those flyers. And it'll be interesting to see how the communities being targeted respond. You'll note I haven't made any particular judgement on that score as yet - but I have expressed some concerns.

In fact, this post leaves me with a fundamental question, one that I'm shocked to even ask - do you realise that you need to be an Australian citizen to vote?

I'm not surprised you're shocked to be asking. It's an incredibly stupid question, particularly given the context, which is what it means to be an Australian, and the difference in opinion (or direction) as to what that actually is.

If the chamber of commerce was advocating for small business owners to vote a certain way, would you accuse the chamber of commerce of encouring people to vote 'not as Australians' but as small business owners?

Where lobby groups for the catholic church encourage catholics to vote in a certain way, would you accuse them of encouraging people to vote 'not as Australians' but as catholics?

This has happened all throughout the history of Australia. The Catholic and Protestant lobbies were heavily influential during the World War One conscription debates, for example.
Lobbying, in itself, is not the issue.

Adherence to faith or culture has gradually moved, rather than to a minor political consideration as Australia had a tendency to do in the recent past, to becoming more prevalent today in some circles.

For those of a western background, religion has a far lower place in the hierarchy of values than it once had. Even in the more recent SSM debate, while religious considerations were lobbied for on behalf of some groups, they didn't have the influence they might have had in decades past. Have you done any particular research into the sources of the "No" vote in that example? Who voted "No", Wahoo?

Australia was designed to be, guided toward, and on path to becoming a more secular nation with regard to political inclination. Generally speaking, we don't vote as members of any particular religious affiliation any more. Also generally speaking, we don't vote for any candidate over another who has been placed in that position as a representative of a specific religion.

This sort of thing represents a step backwards, and while it may be a minor consideration now, it is important to note how changing demographics might bring it to the fore once again. It is not progress.

The fact is they are seeking votes from people who are Australian and those people may happen to be of muslim faith or an arabic background or any other faith/background for that matter.

No, they're canvassing for votes from the Muslim/Arabic community who are living in Australia. That was made rather clear. To be even more clear, they're also attempting to place specific chosen candidates in place to represent a minority community (for now) which is not an Australian issue, private opinions aside. It is also indicative of communities subject to social separation which have begun to form in Australia, which is another result of rapid, demographically-altering immigration.
This is a misrepresentation on your part.

To be more accurate in the context of that article, they're actually canvassing people of an Arabic/Muslim background who "happen" to be living in Australia in order to mobilize the interests of a minority community on an overseas issue. Shifting some words around doesn't change that.

I disagree. It's democracy in action. People are passionate about an issue and they're giving AUSTRALIAN people the opportunity to vote on it.

Nowhere in that article does it state that "Australians" are the focus of their campaign. It mentions, specifically and more than once, Arabs and Muslims.
"Giving Australian people the opportunity" are your words. They don't appear in that article.


Which is, as an aside, a clarification which is in response of your deflection of the issue at hand, which is the viability of democracy itself in the face of an evolving multi-cultural future. Specifically, is that democracy at risk of becoming more non-secular in nature as demographics change?

 

[Episode IV]

Is this comment being serious?
'I have never seen Episode IV show any hatred towards Muslims. "
KH's comment was not a personal attack but a comment made about a poster who has a pattern of negatively stereotyping muslims that's clear as day. In many ways you've made comments about Christians being stereotyped negatively and thats the same thing. If you agree with the views expressed by the poster KH responded too well that's not very Christian of you.
By the way Im repulsed by the Greens vote yesterday about war memorial being vandiilised. Its possible to have views critical of extreme views on both sides of this debate.

Where?

 

[Episode IV]

Read any of your his views on Palestine and the fact he assumes muslim migrants support muslim extremism and the far left when in the vast majority of cases the exact opposite is true. Eg. Most muslims don't support the far left as evident by how badly the Greens do in highly multicultural seats like Fowler where the Greens got 4% of the 1st preference votes last election. .

I was referencing how you advocate Christian values and make mention to how many of the people you have contact with helping others are Christian.I currently work with Christian and muslim refugees. What I'm saying is the negative stereotyping helps no one and I'm pointing out how the person you've advocated for here negatively stereotyoes all the time because no

I don'thave the slightest problem with Christians who don't dictate how others whould behave and ivs the same with muslims. Somehpw the poster you support assumes a Labor politician advocating for the stopping of bombing in Gaza has extreme views. Its not extreme to want pressure on Israel to stop bombing just like its not extreme to note that Hamas' refusal to do a hostage//prisoner swap is also prolonging war and deaths in Gaza.

Where?

 

[BanjoRules]

This group is asking individual Australians to vote in a bloc in support of representation not as Australians, but as Muslims and Arabs.

It's an indictment, to some extent, on the viability of democracy itself in an increasingly multicultural society

Thanks for raising this topic Episode IV. A very important and emotive one.

I would rather have a country where all voters vote as Australians first. Anything other than that can result in democracy itself being used to subvert the goals of the democratic system. The problem with democracy is that giving people the ability to vote for what they want does not guarantee they will vote for what's good for the country.

Interesting galvanizing Fijians of all ethnic backgrounds to vote on a Fijian first basis is what Bainimarama achieved in the long run but had to undertake a military style coup to make that happen.

I see France is now heading towards deporting Muslim brotherhood (said to be in the hundreds of thousands) and others who hold the "Make Islam Great Again" ideology and closing down mosques who preach this radical form of Islam.

Hopefully the Jewish community will start to feel safe living there again having dropped from the peak of about 750,000 to 400,000. Maybe the moderate Muslims will no longer feel the need to have to send there kids to Catholic schools to protect them from being radicalized.

Australia needs checks and balances in place to ensure our democratic system is safe from blocs of voters who donot vote as Australians first.

I am not talking about voting as an Australian citizen I am talking about voting with the interests and wellbeing of the Australian nation and all who live in it as a priority, regardless of religion, skin color etc.

 

[Taylor]

I am very curious to see what comes of a political group seeking to mobilise a particular religious group specifically against the ALP in seats in which that specific religious group are over represented.

Not because I think a caucus of Muslim interests in Parliament will be a problem, but because minorities that are supposed to vote progressive who do not tend to get savagely treated by their own party when they don't fall into line and side with them on what they want.

 

[Sherriff Incorporated]

Sorry you are correct - what you said wasn't a question it was a statement which is what made it a personal attack. Thank you for correcting that.


This is a personal attack. It isn't needed.

How is that comment by KH not factually true. No. It wasn't a personal attack but a statement of fact

Where?

Are you kidding? How about your entire previous post. You constantly reference any muslim view as if they all support Hamas as muslim extremism when in fact the exat opposite is true and most muslims revile muslim extremism. Ive pointed this out many times and the last time you just went on an unhinged incoherrant rant so I put you on ignore. Rather than going round in circles I'll let you rant all you like but I'll put you on ignore again. Good luck in the real world.

 

[Sherriff Incorporated]

I am very curious to see what comes of a political group seeking to mobilise a particular religious group specifically against the ALP in seats in which that specific religious group are over represented.

Not because I think a caucus of Muslim interests in Parliament will be a problem, but because minorities that are supposed to vote progressive who do not tend to get savagely treated by their own party when they don't fall into line and side with them on what they want.

Its the left in oz eating its own. It will be very interesting to see if the Greens change preferences as it could mean the ALP will be in trouble. Recent polling shows both the greens and One Nation are gaining support.

 

[Episode IV]

Are you kidding? How about your entire previous post. You constantly reference any muslim view as if they all support Hamas as muslim extremism when in fact the exat opposite is true and most muslims revile muslim extremism. Ive pointed this out many times and the last time you just went on an unhinged incoherrant rant so I put you on ignore. Rather than going round in circles I'll let you rant all you like but I'll put you on ignore again. Good luck in the real world.

Ok. So you contention here is that my "entire previous post" was a reference to how Muslim all support Hamas. Without any corroborating evidence, just... "reading between the lines". Where on Earth did Hamas even come up at all?
Same as the last little stoush we had, really.

I suppose the only real question left under the circumstances is to try and determine whether you're a liar, or linguistically and intellectually incompetent. I lean toward the latter.

I've been trying not to engage with idiots recently, but it's so very difficult when they absolutely insist upon it.

 

[poshman]

Read any of your his views on Palestine and the fact he assumes muslim migrants support muslim extremism and the far left when in the vast majority of cases the exact opposite is true. Eg. Most muslims don't support the far left as evident by how badly the Greens do in highly multicultural seats like Fowler where the Greens got 4% of the 1st preference votes last election. .

I was referencing how you advocate Christian values and make mention to how many of the people you have contact with helping others are Christian.I currently work with Christian and muslim refugees. What I'm saying is the negative stereotyping helps no one and I'm pointing out how the person you've advocated for here negatively stereotyoes all the time because no

I don'thave the slightest problem with Christians who don't dictate how others whould behave and ivs the same with muslims. Somehpw the poster you support assumes a Labor politician advocating for the stopping of bombing in Gaza has extreme views. Its not extreme to want pressure on Israel to stop bombing just like its not extreme to note that Hamas' refusal to do a hostage//prisoner swap is also prolonging war and deaths in Gaza.

I think you need to go through and look at my posts on Gaza - I have not made many. You continue to reference 'my support of a poster'. I don't support any poster, I try my best just to interact with the individual post. I know that is a discipline that has been lost in modern political discourse but that is my stance.

If you quote a post that you think is negatively stereotyping I am willing to look at it. The poster you are referencing is typically quite specific with the words they use, and I have not seen a negative stereotype, but I could have missed them and I have not read all the posts in the last fortnight, let alone all the posts on this thread.

 

[Episode IV]

I am not talking about voting as an Australian citizen I am talking about voting with the interests and wellbeing of the Australian nation and all who live in it as a priority, regardless of religion, skin color etc.

That's the key, isn't it.
What are the capabilities of democracy in that regard, with particular respect to Australia being a representative democracy?

 

[poshman]

How is that comment by KH not factually true. No. It wasn't a personal attack but a statement of fact

Are you kidding? How about your entire previous post. You constantly reference any muslim view as if they all support Hamas as muslim extremism when in fact the exat opposite is true and most muslims revile muslim extremism. Ive pointed this out many times and the last time you just went on an unhinged incoherrant rant so I put you on ignore. Rather than going round in circles I'll let you rant all you like but I'll put you on ignore again. Good luck in the real world.

He answered your question for you, when he said it wasn't said, he was reading between the lines. By definition that is an assumption not a fact.

Can you acknowledge that?

 

[poshman]

Where?

When you ask for a quote it is all 'reading between the lines' while being 'factual', which despite being an impossibility is a claim they are holding too.

 

[poshman]

How is that comment by KH not factually true. No. It wasn't a personal attack but a statement of fact

Are you kidding? How about your entire previous post. You constantly reference any muslim view as if they all support Hamas as muslim extremism when in fact the exat opposite is true and most muslims revile muslim extremism. Ive pointed this out many times and the last time you just went on an unhinged incoherrant rant so I put you on ignore. Rather than going round in circles I'll let you rant all you like but I'll put you on ignore again. Good luck in the real world.

Show where the link was drawn to support of Hamas.

Am I correct in understanding that there is no direct quote, it is all reading between the lines, but you are claiming it as fact?

 

[Episode IV]

I think you need to go through and look at my posts on Gaza - I have not made many. You continue to reference 'my support of a poster'. I don't support any poster, I try my best just to interact with the individual post. I know that is a discipline that has been lost in modern political discourse but that is my stance.

If you quote a post that you think is negatively stereotyping I am willing to look at it. The poster you are referencing is typically quite specific with the words they use, and I have not seen a negative stereotype, but I could have missed them and I have not read all the posts in the last fortnight, let alone all the posts on this thread.

Oy. I'm a male

 

[Taylor]

I believe you will have a very difficult time justifying the claim of hate on the balance of probabilities in a defamation court.

 

[Episode IV]

I believe you will have a very difficult time justifying the claim of hate on the balance of probabilities in a defamation court.

Note I've never once been asked what my views of Islam actually are.

*edit - Given that, I suppose in that light any discourse on the relevance or impact of Islam upon Australia would be a conversation far in excess of the capabilities of some here. Impossible even to establish a foundation.

 

[King Huskii]

Note I've never once been asked what my views of Islam actually are.

*edit - Given that, I suppose in that light any discourse on the relevance or impact of Islam upon Australia would be a conversation far in excess of the capabilities of some here. Impossible even to establish a foundation.

Thats because you have already told us

 

[Taylor]

If you can directly compare fundamental Islamic sects with fundamental Christian sets, and I don't believe you can, but let's pretend they are equal - I don't think it's really fair for someone to be directly talking about the fundamentalist extreme and then the moderate versions of each are used to discount the arguments against the extremism.