Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

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Demons09 said:
70% of Muslims in Gaza support Hamas and would vote them in tomorrow if there was an election, it was nice that only 7% thought Oct 7 was wrong Ive seen Muslims in the media call Hamas resistance fighters lol sure not all Muslims support Hamas but plenty do.
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I wouldn't pay too much attention to things like that, personally. That the Palestinians either support or condemn Hamas is pretty much a moot issue. Simple fact is that without being there and living there, we wouldn't really know.
I suspect it'd be a similar situation to Germany prior to and during World War two. There are claims the Germans did support the Nazis, claims they didn't, and Historians are left to debate the reasons why. People are prone to be led down all sorts of destructive pathways if they believe, or are led to believe, they have reason enough to do so.
As can be seen in the recent EU elections, the protest vote (in the sense of voting for fringe or extreme parties) is of paramount importance in those electorates who see themselves as being oppressed or disadvantaged in some way. That protest vote will grow when certain issues assume precedence among a range of issues in play, and the more moderate groups are not seen as being a solution... and in that example, it is something which is occurring in an area which is notably more democratic than in regions where democracy itself is often viewed as an imposition.

The only thing that is certain is that there has to be enough people supporting these sorts of organisations to make them viable - this line between "innocent civilians" and Hamas devotees is a construct.

That sort of thing does, however, call to attention the possibilities and difficulties surrounding a two-state solution. The international communities call for a line on a map to be drawn, and for both parties to adhere to a diplomatic solution... then presumably step back and wash their hands of the situation.
As I mentioned a couple of months back, it seems like a reasonable solution to outsiders, but the internal practicalities are bound to cause issues... one of which is who rules Palestine when Israel is gone. Hamas were elected to power in 2006, but it was a close run thing.
Sheriff mentioned something about "what happened to" the PA a few posts back, but if the intimation there was that the PA were the white hats in that situation, I'd counter that that is far from reality. Multiple attempts were made for Hamas and the PA to share power, but it ended up in a violent conflict from which Hamas emerged the victors. It's not as if a democratically elected government was deposed.

There are other things to consider, naturally. Any two-state solution would by necessity involve Palestinian access to religious sites in Israel, and cross-border traffic is bound to be an important consideration. That sort of thing has been an issue since Israel's foundation, and will continue to be. The flashpoint for the Second Intifada, for example, was violent Palestinian protest against Ariel Sharon's visit to the Al-Aqsa compound, a site in East Jerusalem of religious importance to both Jews and Muslims.
Palestine will also be left as an independent state with no real industry or source of income. It'll depend on international aid to survive.

There are many such considerations which will need to be addressed in any two-state solution, and there is certain to be cause for grievance on behalf of one side or the other as a result of any such resolution.

A two-state solution was recently employed in Sudan, a conflict which dwarfs the Israel/Palestine one in terms of casualties, dispossession, and general misery. South Sudan, created as a "homeland" for those at risk of sectarian and tribal violence and genocide, is now embroiled in further violence (the reasons for which are complex but one of which is the "question" of who is now in charge) and a created state on the verge of total failure.
I often observe with a wry smile how assiduously the humanitarians avoid any mention of it, or at least half a dozen other nations in Africa where conflict and dispossession are commonplace.

A closer look at that situation, however, should give at least some pause to any who champion a two-state solution with regard to Israel and Palestine. It's not necessarily the solution Palestinian advocates think it might be.
 
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Taylor said:
Can anyone think of another circumstance in which the group, terrorist or otherwise, who triggered a round of violence against a group of people from an outside party was blamed by the group of people suffering as a result?

I didn't think the Taliban are all that popular globally.
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Tough question - there aren't that many are there, at least not recently.
Italy (Mussolini), going back to World War II. Again, though and as I noted above, questions surrounding the extent of initial support are difficult to answer.
 

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Kram said:
So when do we think they will be releasing the ads educating Australians on anti semitism?
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One of the problems we have in society now in dealing with any issue is that the vast majority of people don't watch any mainstream outlets so campaigns that have worked in the past won't work today. In so many ways I think the labelling of anything anti Israeli Government as anti semitism and any opposing view as Zionist harms all debate.
 
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Taylor said:
Progressives do like putting minorities out the front for a photo op and then at the back for ideas, but watch what happens if those minorities get any thoughts of speaking for themselves outside of the party line.

Oh boy, they'll get savage.
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Posts elsewhere on here attacking Jacinta Price are quite disgusting.

And no doubt almost all from ignorant, self serving white phoneys.
 
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Kram said:
So when do we think they will be releasing the ads educating Australians on anti semitism?
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Conflating the subject matter isn't an unknown tactic.
Having a transgender person move in next door is a completely different kettle of fish to having a transgender person play in women's sport, but that means little in the context of a 1 minute advertisement.
Most people aren't going to make that distinction.

As far as the Israelis go... well. As we can see, the general response is "who cares?".
Moral positions are adopted easily, but just as easily abandoned in the face of expediency.

"The Unsaid Says a Lot"...
Yes, it does. Apparently, even a poker face is repugnant these days. Get with the program, think what you're told to think.
Smile, lie back, and think of England.
 
Kram said:
Posts elsewhere on here attacking Jacinta Price are quite disgusting.

And no doubt almost all from ignorant, self serving white phoneys.
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On here, maybe.
Opposition to Price comes just as much from within Aboriginal communities elsewhere, though.

I've often wondered about the demographic makeup of Bigfooty, particularly in the political sphere. I have a feeling it would be quite revealing.
 
Episode IV said:
On here, maybe.
Opposition to Price comes just as much from within Aboriginal communities elsewhere, though.

I've often wondered about the demographic makeup of Bigfooty, particularly in the political sphere. I have a feeling it would be quite revealing.
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And yet you have an opinion, just like I do.
 

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Kram said:
Posts elsewhere on here attacking Jacinta Price are quite disgusting.

And no doubt almost all from ignorant, self serving white phoneys.
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I agree. What those on the left who label every view they disagree with as right wing don't get is that actually most of the cultural minorities they claim to represent have more socially conservative views (including in indigenous culture and most refugees) than mainstream oz which is why the Greens do so badly in highly multicultural seats across oz. Eg. What happened last election in Australia's most multicultural seat in Fowler where the Greens got 4% or Blaxland where they got 6% of first preference votes. Im only talking about the far left (so not the left leaning as the ALP do well in multicultural seats) but so many of the views the far left label right wing are actually views found way more in multicultural oz and many of those views used to be described as the political centre.
 
Sherriff Incorporated said:
One of the problems we have in society now in dealing with any issue is that the vast majority of people don't watch any mainstream outlets so campaigns that have worked in the past won't work today. In so many ways I think the labelling of anything anti Israeli Government as anti semitism and any semitism and anytihing as anti every opposing view as Zionist harms all debate.
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People can respect the people of Isreal and be opposed to decisions and actions the Israeli government take and not be anti-semitic.

Unfortunately some posters can't comprehend this.
 
Kram said:


Victoria :thumbsu:
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1. So women are to be discouraged from putting their feeling of safety first.
2. This bloke hasn't moved his stuff for any of the other women standing so what's the message?
3. Isn't it just normal to pick up something someone has dropped, whoever they are?
4. This one isn't even clear what the message is.
5. I wonder how the opposition team feels.
 
Episode IV said:
On here, maybe.
Opposition to Price comes just as much from within Aboriginal communities elsewhere, though.

I've often wondered about the demographic makeup of Bigfooty, particularly in the political sphere. I have a feeling it would be quite revealing.
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No. Ironically Jacinta Price has way more support from indigenous communities than people think here. Ive got friends working in frontline services in Alice in the court system.

Eg. What was not said about the Voice Referendum according to them was the vast majority of indigenous Australians didn't vote as they felt they were not given enough information to make an informed decision while the state government is massively unpopular with all locals (including indigenous people) too. Like all politicians Jacinta has people who support and oppose her but our media makes out differently Many indigenous in these communities don't support either major political party, actually most dont hence how many indigenous there aren't enrolled to vote.
 
There wasn't an obvious difference between the Voice as another branch of the government and the already existing departments of that government, all the State and Federal ones, that weren't getting the job done.

It's all seen as the same machine, staffed by the same people with the same ideas achieving the same level of next to nothing.

I couldn't argue against it, but I'm also not someone who expects government to suddenly figure out how to solve problems.
 
Sherriff Incorporated said:
No. Ironically Jacinta Price has way more support from indigenous communities than people think here. Ive got friends working in frontline services in Alice in the court system.

Eg. What was not said about the Voice Referendum according to them was the vast majority of indigenous Australians didn't vote as they felt they were not given enough information to make an informed decision while the state government is massively unpopular with all locals (including indigenous people) too. Like all politicians Jacinta has people who support and oppose her but our media makes out differently Many indigenous in these communities don't support either major political party, actually most dont hence how many indigenous there aren't enrolled to vote.
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Jacinta Price has very little support amongst the majority of Aboriginal communities.
 
My opinion is that the Free Palestine movement would have a much more successful campaign if their "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" which we will take at their face value as not meaning the destruction of Israel wasn't sat right next to the "No peace on stolen land" banner as it was today at Parliament House which is very clear. All of Israel is considered stolen land. This isn't a two state solution campaign.

If the campaign was calling for current borders to be rigid and compensation paid such that all of Gaza and the West Bank could be built up into a comfortable standard of living that allows the people to thrive in their individual pursuit of happiness then they would get more support.

Obviously there are going to be people who rightly feel that if your home was recently stolen from you that you deserve to get it back, and I think that's fair, then the discussion can shift towards drawing a border that accommodates those - or compensates for them at a multiple of value.
 
Sherriff Incorporated said:
No. Ironically Jacinta Price has way more support from indigenous communities than people think here. Ive got friends working in frontline services in Alice in the court system.

Eg. What was not said about the Voice Referendum according to them was the vast majority of indigenous Australians didn't vote as they felt they were not given enough information to make an informed decision while the state government is massively unpopular with all locals (including indigenous people) too. Like all politicians Jacinta has people who support and oppose her but our media makes out differently Many indigenous in these communities don't support either major political party, actually most dont hence how many indigenous there aren't enrolled to vote.
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I lived in the NT for quite a while, Sheriff, so your particular anecdotal evidence here is not of much value. Her stoushes with other Aboriginal political leaders, and communities, were legendary - Marion Scrymgour being one example. She feuded with non-Aboriginal ones too. The Alice Springs Land Council went so far as to say they were "not her people".
How far this goes to support her popularity among Aboriginals in general isn't completely clear, but it's a fair indicator.
Personally, I agree with her views on most things and disagree with some, as a rule of thumb.

Plenty was said about the Aboriginals decisions in many cases to not vote on the Voice referendum or vote no due to a lack of information... like many other Australians.

What are you reading in the media that indicate Price is not a controversial figure?
 
Taylor said:
...If the campaign was calling for current borders to be rigid and compensation paid such that all of Gaza and the West Bank could be built up into a comfortable standard of living that allows the people to thrive in their individual pursuit of happiness then they would get more support.
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It certainly would, but would you expect Israel to have any desire whatsoever to build up a separated Palestine, given the history?
And if they won't pay for that, who will be expected to foot the bill?
 
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