The Law PSO's - what the hell?

[Pie eyed]

I'd have to do some dredging.
Apt username BTW.

I know it was done prior to the recent upgrade of the ticketing system...Mykey is it?
I'm not from Vic

 

[The Passenger]

I know it was done prior to the recent upgrade of the ticketing system...Mykey is it?
I'm not from Vic

All good I will have a hunt around for it. I'm surprised I didn't pick up on it. I living in Melbourne around the time of the myki "upgrade"

 

[Gus Poyet]

It makes more sense to not charge for public transport. The money saved simply not having any ticketing system is a massive saving let alone not paying people to police it. It also means there are no unsuitable tools put in positions of power to run amok on the general public.
The Vic Government did a study not long ago and found it would lose less if the system was free.

What about all of the human trash that would then be free to get about on public transport unchecked?

Remove the cost factor and what's to say public transport doesn't become an even worse experience?

 

[The Passenger]

What about all of the human trash that would then be free to get about on public transport unchecked?

What's it like carrying the burden of spite?

 

[jiphoc]

i have been an advocate of free public transport for a long time. or at the very least looking into how it would impact the government economy and environment, cause i reckon it would be fairly substantial. i'm not sure if it would be positive or negative and it might possibly all come out even, but there would be a redistribution of where revenue was coming from, but also saving money elsewhere.

the most likely results would be more people using public transport, so you would need to find more buses, trams and trains, and people to drive them, and also costs to service them.

would take cars off the road, so you might save some money in terms of maintenance and development of roadways, but that could also have a downturn in terms of contractors losing work.... i don't think there would be much of an impact in terms of loss of revenue from car registrations and taxes because most people who have a car would still keep one, they'd just likely use it less. less petrol being consumed, which would mean less taxes collected.

do you have a link to that study? i'd like to read it.

The study was done a while ago now (looked into it during a university lecture, I was half asleep at the time though so my memory is sketchy). Adelaide tried free public transport in the 80's or 90's I think to some extent and it was a huge failure. The lost revenue estimated by free public transport would be close to 400 million based on current trends. After it is free you then will have a likely increase in patronage. This again leads to the requirement for better facilities/ security, etc. However after already spending 400 million you are asking a lot. It is a nasty cycle and would never ever work in a city like Melbourne.

Not only of all of the above no government would ever win power with that proposal (for example see Liberals trying in 2006 for free Student public transport).

 

[The Passenger]

Interesting. There are a lot of side effects that would be hard to estimate. I don't know whether it would work or not and it would probably vary from town to town, and culture to culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

 

[Gus Poyet]

What's it like carrying the burden of spite?

Nothing to do with spite. All to do with reality. A place perhaps you don't live in.

Go on, open up the gates for free travel. Guess what you'll have to do then?

Hire PSO style people to ride the trains to ensure that extra trash you let on doesn't harm the average commuter.

Then when they start confronting scummers on the train the hang wringers will be able to fire up the moaning agian.

 

[The Passenger]

Human trash? Scummers? Anyone would swear you are talking about people beneath you.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Human trash? Scummers? Anyone would swear you are talking about people beneath you.

Junkies, thugs, vandals etc etc

They are scummers without a doubt. So yes, well below me.

 

[The Passenger]

If you believe so.

 

[Gus Poyet]

I know so.

 

[radiojake]

So what do the scummers do at the moment, Gus? Hide away under rocks?

You're a f*cking idiot and that's being nice about it -

 

[The Passenger]

Compassion and empathy are two of my favourite feelings as well.

Anyway, digressing. Thread getting dereailed - pardon the pub.

Noticed Tallin has moved to a free public transport system. Currently the largest city in the world to do so. Going to have a read on that tomorrow. It does seem in general to be something that is more common in smaller cities.

 

[Gus Poyet]

So what do the scummers do at the moment, Gus? Hide away under rocks?

You're a f*cking idiot and that's being nice about it -

Do you want a band aid for your bleeding heart?

Massive cry baby too.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Compassion and empathy are two of my favourite feelings as well.

Anyway, digressing. Thread getting dereailed - pardon the pub.

Noticed Tallin has moved to a free public transport system. Currently the largest city in the world to do so. Going to have a read on that tomorrow. It does seem in general to be something that is more common in smaller cities.

From the link you provided.

Several large North American municipalities have attempted zero-fare systems, but many of these implementations have been unsuccessful. A 2002 National Center for Transportation Research report suggests that, while transit ridership does tend to increase, there are also some serious disadvantages:[3]

• A sharp increase in vandalism and hooliganism
• Transit vehicles turning into de facto homeless shelters
• In large transit systems, significant revenue shortfalls
• A significant increase in driver complaints and staff turnover, even though farebox-related arguments are all but eliminated
• Slower service overall (not collecting fares has the effect of speeding boarding, but increased crowding tends to swamp out this effect)
• Declines in schedule adherence
• Increased costs in security and vehicle-maintenance

This report suggests that, while ridership does increase overall, the ultimate goal of reducing emissions by enticing drivers to take transit instead is rarely met: because fare-free systems tend to attract large numbers of hooligans, vagrants and other "problem riders", zero-fare systems often have the effect of frightening potential riders back into their cars.

It would seem free rides do infact increase the amount of "non-friendly" elements on the system.
Does that mean trains do then infact need to have police like elements riding them to ensure passengers saftey and the equipments protection?

 

[The Passenger]

I read that. I've never stated that it's not a possibility. I don't feel the need to look down on people for their life choices.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Aren't ticket inspectors legally allowed to restrain you until the police come if you refuse to comply

Since there is no sound on the video we don't know if they asked her to stop but you can prob assume they did

So if she didn't stop then imo they can reasonably attempt to restrain her and grabbing a shoulder is reasonable

How should he have restrained her?

She didn't have a ticket - so initially she was in the wrong.

My post on the subject was deleted in the great move, so I will reiterate.

Ticket inspectors are not PSO's. They are private individuals, not sworn officers empowered by the state.

They are rightly banned from making any physical contact with passengers, unless in response to a medical emergency, to supply consenting lawful assistance upon request, or in self defence/defence of another.

The ticket inspector, as per the law, assaulted the victim by both grabbing and restraining her. The girl then exercised her lawful right to self defence by swinging her arm out to ward off the assailant. The response was not only excessive, but unlawful. Not paying for a ticket, whilst being a shitty thing to do, is irrelevant.

Consider you grabbed and restrained a minor, you would also rightly be liable to be charged with assault.

 

[Helicopter Punt]

My post on the subject was deleted in the great move, so I will reiterate.

Ticket inspectors are not PSO's. They are private individuals, not sworn officers empowered by the state.

They are rightly banned from making any physical contact with passengers, unless in response to a medical emergency, to supply consenting lawful assistance upon request, or in self defence/defence of another.

The ticket inspector, as per the law, assaulted the victim by both grabbing and restraining her. The girl then exercised her lawful right to self defence by swinging her arm out to ward off the assailant. The response was not only excessive, but unlawful. Not paying for a ticket, whilst being a shitty thing to do, is irrelevant.

Consider you grabbed and restrained a minor, you would also rightly be liable to be charged with assault.

In Victoria they are delegated the power of arrest & release.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

In Victoria they are delegated the power of arrest & release.

Metro ticket inspectors aren't. PSO's are sworn officers who are delegated those powers, Metro ticket inspectors are private employees of Metro Trains and are explicitly forbidden from touching or restraining passengers.

 

[Sterge]

Metro ticket inspectors aren't. PSO's are sworn officers who are delegated those powers, Metro ticket inspectors are private employees of Metro Trains and are explicitly forbidden from touching or restraining passengers.

I'm not saying you are wrong but why do the posters inside trains that state ticket inspectors powers state that they are legally allowed to hold you until police arrive

If they can not touch you are you expected to just calmly hang out and wait?

 

[Helicopter Punt]

Metro ticket inspectors aren't. PSO's are sworn officers who are delegated those powers, Metro ticket inspectors are private employees of Metro Trains and are explicitly forbidden from touching or restraining passengers.

It must have changed recently then. They always had them. I had those powers not many years ago delegated from secretary of DoI - not Vicpol related.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

I'm not saying you are wrong but why do the posters inside trains that state ticket inspectors powers state that they are legally allowed to hold you until police arrive

If they can not touch you are you expected to just calmly hang out and wait?

The Metro ticket inspectors are allowed to request you stay put, but they aren't allowed to touch, or physically restrain you.

This is different to the sworn officers, such as PSO's, or the equivalent on the trams, which are employees of and empowered by the state.

 

[DivideandMultiply]

It must have changed recently then. They always had them. I had those powers not many years ago delegated from secretary of DoI - not Vicpol related.

Were you an employee of Metro, or were you a state employee? Even the armed guards at the train yards, who aren't state employees (I know one), have strict liability and protocols they have to follow when dealing with potential law breakers, which are basically the same as any private citizen.

Authorised personnel have the same powers of arrest and restraint as an everyday Joe. If you are committing an offence such as assault, they have limited powers to arrest and restrain you whilst waiting for the arrival of law enforcement. They aren't allowed to do this over ticketing issues.

 

[Sterge]

The Metro ticket inspectors are allowed to request you stay put, but they aren't allowed to touch, or physically restrain you.

This is different to the sworn officers, such as PSO's, or the equivalent on the trams, which are employees of and empowered by the state.

Excellent i'm never buying a ticket again and just running off on the metro blokes

 

[DivideandMultiply]

Excellent i'm never buying a ticket again and just running off on the metro blokes

As that video shows, you are still every chance of catching a flogging, especially if a PSO/transport police catch you.