Public vs Private School funding

[Caesar]

Took this discussion out of the Dan Andrew's thread where Deliverance said

Deliverance is a public school teacher, he has Stockholm syndrome

 

[Sttew]

90's

had the mates who did the double (comm/law or arts/law) and had 2 who did the straight law (the initial law degree followed by the second one you need to actually do it as a gig)

I know things changed at Melbourne since my day, no idea about monash or the others

So where did your mates study? Monash or Melbourne? In your original post on this topic you said, “everyone i knew who did one did them for one for one of two reasons 1) to be a politician, and 2) to pick up women by saying "hey, I studied law at Monash" (seriously not kidding).”

And what is the second degree Law graduates “need to actually do it as a gig”?

 

[Gralin]

Deliverance is a public school teacher, he has Stockholm syndrome

I know a few public school teachers and others in the system

None of them would say there's basically no difference between public and private

But then none of them would say a lot of the shit he does

 

[kranky al]

Because it ultimately saves the government $$$$. Imagine if there were no private schools or no private hospitals...

How would it save the federal government money. They spend more on private schools than public schools?


If all the private schools closed they could give the lower rate to all schools

 

[Sttew]

How would it save the federal government money. They spend more on private schools than public schools?


If all the private schools closed they could give the lower rate to all schools

You're right in relation to the Feds; it suits the state governments to have private schools because it saves them money

 

[Kwality]

How would it save the federal government money. They spend more on private schools than public schools?


If all the private schools closed they could give the lower rate to all schools

The total money spent on education would fall by the amount contributed by parents paying their kids to private schools, unless the taxpayer picked up the tab.
The system would certainly need the facilities. The public system isnt under utilised as it is.

There are also the public funded 'selective' schools e.g Perth Modern School or Melbourne High.
The private boarding schools sector would need to be considered.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

So where did your mates study? Monash or Melbourne? In your original post on this topic you said, “everyone i knew who did one did them for one for one of two reasons 1) to be a politician, and 2) to pick up women by saying "hey, I studied law at Monash" (seriously not kidding).”

And what is the second degree Law graduates “need to actually do it as a gig”?

as ive said all along, they went to monash. and as i said in the last post, only one of my friends did a straight law degree (and she was the only one who actually went onto practice law)

forget what the two are called (was one the jurisprudence one??), remember it was something like an initial 3 year degree, then a second 4 year one (or vice versa)

 

[Suspense]

The other issue I have with your plan is that I can't see it leading to different inequalities because of geography. Public schools from lower socioeconomic areas typically don't provide the same quality of schooling as inner city schools. Take a student that lives in Keysborough or surrounding suburbs for example. Private school options within the vicinity include Haileybury. If that same student is pushed out of the public system and into a public school in Keysborough or Dandenong, their opportunities become far more limited.

It is a self-perpetuating cycle.

Medium-to-high income earners in lower-SES areas will pay to send their kids to private schools (to get a better quality education) - which results in the public schools in that area comprised of kids with low-socioeconomic backgrounds - with parents with a higher prevalence of:

• Poor organisational skills
• Poverty
• Broken Families
• Substance Abuse
• Working extra jobs (unable to help with homework)
• Lower education (literacy and numeracy)
• Lower appreciation for the value of education

The result is that the public schools in those areas become very ghettoised where a lack of learning becomes the dominant school culture. This, unfortunately, breeds across into the staff - who become so exhausted with constantly dealing with behaviour management that they too become disillusioned. Remember, unlike private schools, public schools are unable to simply expel these challenging students (it is very hard to expel a student - as they need to go somewhere).

The public school I currently teach at is in middle SES area - it has some suburbs that are considered high socioeconomic - and some suburbs that are low SES as well. The school has a good reputation for a public school - and as a result - we get many students that come from middle-to-high socioeconomic backgrounds. We still get the students that come from low SES backgrounds - but there is no longer the same ghettoisation that you get in the lower SES-area schools that I have worked at - where almost ALL of the students come from low SES backgrounds.

My current school, with students from low, middle and high SES backgrounds, does not have the same poor culture that infiltrates many of the public schools in lower-SES areas. The kids from lower-SES backgrounds benefit from the fact that they attend a school that is able to maintain a strong-culture of learning - which is only possible because the classes also consist of students with middle-to-high SES backgrounds (students that want to learn).

 

[Sttew]

as ive said all along, they went to monash

forget what the two are called (was one the jurisprudence one??), remember it was something like an initial 3 year degree, then a 4 year one

You just have to be careful with your 'truth'.

Fact is Law has always been a double degree at Monash, including Jurisprudence / Law. And just because you know a few w***ers who enrolled in Law for the wrong reasons hardly means you can extrapolate and claim everyone does it to go on a ego trip.

FYI, I know a guy who studied and completed Medicine but is now a multi millionaire in a completely different and unrelated field. I wouldn't claim that's the norm, or that's why people study Medicine

 

[Suspense]

FFS you are delusional

2) teachers who barely pass were at our school, because the private schools cherry pick the best of the best by paying them well above govt rates

pay is only marginally higher - and usually is inclusive of extra duties such as compulsory running Saturday sports, extra-curricular clubs, having to deal with psycho private school parents etc.

there is no difference in the "quality" of the teacher - private school teachers simply just don't have to deal with behaviour management and often have lighter face-to-face teaching loads (allowing more time for planning/marking/feedback etc.)

3) text books are the start of learning. when I was studying you needed to quote a minimum of ten external sources for a high school report. Your textbook is just one of them. FFS even for mandatory texts (not on the official text book list, but for a specific project), we usually only had 2 copies in the library for 60-120 students to fight over

the fact you think i got the same education in frankston as someone from scotch is beyond laughable

not sure what happened back in 19-dickety-eight - but in 2022, I teach two seperate VCE subjects and use the exact same textbooks and practice exams that private school teachers use.

 

[Kwality]

It is a self-perpetuating cycle.

Medium-to-high income earners in lower-SES areas will pay to send their kids to private schools (to get a better quality education) - which results in the public schools in that area comprised of kids with low-socioeconomic backgrounds - with parents with a higher prevalence of:

• Poor organisational skills
• Poverty
• Broken Families
• Substance Abuse
• Working extra jobs (unable to help with homework)
• Lower education (literacy and numeracy)
• Lower appreciation for the value of education

The result is that the public schools in those areas become very ghettoised where a lack of learning becomes the dominant school culture. This, unfortunately, breeds across into the staff - who become so exhausted with constantly dealing with behaviour management that they too become disillusioned. Remember, unlike private schools, public schools are unable to simply expel these challenging students (it is very hard to expel a student - as they need to go somewhere).

The public school I currently teach at is in middle SES area - it has some suburbs that are considered high socioeconomic - and some suburbs that are low SES as well. The school has a good reputation for a public school - and as a result - we get many students that come from middle-to-high socioeconomic backgrounds. We still get the students that come from low SES backgrounds - but there is no longer the same ghettoisation that you get in the lower SES-area schools that I have worked at - where almost ALL of the students come from low SES backgrounds.

My current school, with students from low, middle and high SES backgrounds, does not have the same poor culture that infiltrates many of the public schools in lower-SES areas. The kids from lower-SES backgrounds benefit from the fact that they attend a school that is able to maintain a strong-culture of learning - which is only possible because the classes also consist of students with middle-to-high SES backgrounds (students that want to learn).

Are you thinking of the likes of Waverley High or more correctly Glen Waverley Secondary College (https://www.gwsc.vic.edu.au/) or https://www.mwsc.vic.edu.au/ or https://www.mwsc.vic.edu.au/ for the Mount Waverley version.

The value of the education at these schools has driven real estate real estate prices & rentals.

Do school catchment areas affect local property prices?

Would you spend $50,000 more for a property to be in the catchment area of a top local school? Apparently many Australians would be happy to pay a premium...

www.openagent.com.au

Seems its not just out that way:

Schools Supercharge Suburb Property Prices

Parents wanting to be closer to well-regarded primary or secondary schools are now paying 10 to 20 per cent more for homes...

www.theurbandeveloper.com

REAL ESTATE TED TABET WED 22 SEP 21

Schools Supercharge Suburb Property Prices​

My point is one size does not fit all, despite the goodwill of those who prefer to think it does in public education.

 

[Suspense]

Are you thinking of the likes of Waverley High or more correctly Glen Waverley Secondary College (https://www.gwsc.vic.edu.au/) or https://www.mwsc.vic.edu.au/ or https://www.mwsc.vic.edu.au/ for the Mount Waverley version.

The value of the education at these schools has driven real estate real estate prices & rentals.

Do school catchment areas affect local property prices?

Would you spend $50,000 more for a property to be in the catchment area of a top local school? Apparently many Australians would be happy to pay a premium...

www.openagent.com.au

Seems its not just out that way:

Schools Supercharge Suburb Property Prices

Parents wanting to be closer to well-regarded primary or secondary schools are now paying 10 to 20 per cent more for homes...

www.theurbandeveloper.com

REAL ESTATE TED TABET WED 22 SEP 21

Schools Supercharge Suburb Property Prices​

My point is one size does not fit all, despite the goodwill of those who prefer to think it does in public education.

What does that have to do with my post?

 

[Carn The Berries]

FFS you are delusional

2) teachers who barely pass were at our school, because the private schools cherry pick the best of the best by paying them well above govt rates

The award for the Catholic Schools has pay parity for teachers with the Government sectors. Many of the individual awards for other independent schools follow the same structure. This simply isn't true.

 

[Kwality]

What does that have to do with my post?

Re read your post, e.g

Medium-to-high income earners in lower-SES areas will pay to send their kids to private schools (to get a better quality education) - which results in the public schools in that area comprised of kids with low-socioeconomic backgrounds - with parents with a higher prevalence of:

there is no difference in the "quality" of the teacher

motherhood statements ....

 

[Ice-Wolf]

depends where they are from. the frankston north vs south divide is massive

More of a literal which side of the tracks. The irony being that every person born in Frankston starts life on the good side of the tracks.

Also just realised the TAFE is on the "wrong" side of the tracks where as the Uni is on the "right" side.

 

[tandino]

You realise that many of the Frankston kids parents have more coin than the Balwyn kids parents.

Yeah of course. But the socio-educational advantage is what it is.

 

[Christopher Buttersnip]

It’s argued that private schools generate competition in the school marketplace, in turn improving school performance across the board. It’s another argument with little to show for itself. More and more of this kind of competition has been accompanied by an inexorable decline in student achievement. The most recent research findings confirm that there is little or no difference in student test results between school sectors once the social background of students is accounted for. What, then, is all the public expenditure on private schools aimed at achieving?

While the purpose of funding remains unclear, it is a massive program of public expenditure with a profound impact on our country’s schools. Ever-increasing spending on private schools is one big reason why so many public schools remain under-resourced. While private schools are thousands of dollars ahead of public schools in total per student funding, current trends suggest it will be 2030 before most public schools reach even 90 per cent of Gonski’s schooling resource standard.

What is the point of taxpayer funding of private schools? - Pearls and Irritations

Ever-increasing spending on private schools is one big reason why so many public schools remain under-resourced.

johnmenadue.com

 

[Kwality]

What is the point of taxpayer funding of private schools? - Pearls and Irritations

Ever-increasing spending on private schools is one big reason why so many public schools remain under-resourced.

johnmenadue.com

NAPLAN analysis shows no difference between public, private schools

Researchers followed students’ progress in NAPLAN and found there was no difference between the three school sectors.

www.smh.com.au

'A major study of NAPLAN results over time found only slight differences in scores between the three school sectors, and these differences disappeared once a student’s family background was considered.'


So its +/- your family background
What?

 

[Gralin]

NAPLAN analysis shows no difference between public, private schools

Researchers followed students’ progress in NAPLAN and found there was no difference between the three school sectors.

www.smh.com.au

'A major study of NAPLAN results over time found only slight differences in scores between the three school sectors, and these differences disappeared once a student’s family background was considered.'


So its +/- your family background
What?

What, what?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Did Tom Morris go to a Private School?

He certainly talks like he did

 

[The Punter]

Did Tom Morris go to a Private School?

He certainly talks like he did

He did indeed go to Melbourne Grammar.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

He did indeed go to Melbourne Grammar.

Yeah, I guessed it would be somewhere like that

 

[Gough]

Yeah, I guessed it would be somewhere like that

He's being scouted by the Vic Libs as I type. He'll fit in a treat if only he can harden his views slightly.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

He's being scouted by the Vic Libs as I type. He'll fit in a treat if only he can harden his views slightly.

He'll be their spokesperson on Women and GLBTQ

He has that LNP way with words, in relation to those issues

 

[The Punter]

21st century Victorian Premiers who went to Melbourne Grammar scoreboard:

Liberals: 1
ALP: 1