- Jul 27, 2013
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Hmmm - so when the state tries to put a payroll tax on the private schools (like every other private enterprise) they squeal like stuck pigs and even Andrews goes weak at the knees.
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Public vs Private School funding
- Thread starter Gralin
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Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
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I didn't dispute that.
What I said was it would not be too hard to wind it back further to fix the system that past governments broke, would it?
The movement of that money back to public schools is a separate issue.
If the states needed to do it? Jack up other fees and taxes to redistribute the money.
There are tried, tested, standardised methods for distributing resources. That's not the problem that needs new solutions.
Here, now, in this discussion, we know that:
- Past funding has been unfair.
- The effects of this past unfairness is not fixed just by making current funding more fair - that just stops it getting worse.
- Righting that past unfairness does not require anyone to invent new processes.
I agree with all of that, I am just of the view that there isn't the wherewithal among government to do anything about it, so the point is moot and amounts to shouting at clouds.
In my opinion, the chances of winding back funding below 100% SRS are exactly zero.
We are talking about it. We just have differing opinions on it. Like Carn The Berries, I just don't see this happening at all. In my opinion, there will not be an attempt to recuperate the over-funding of the previous model.
The way I'm looking at it is that we should work towards a readjusted funding model that will essentially result in public education growth over time to a level of the majority of current non-government schools. If we see that, I would actually expect that more and more of the population would choose public schools which would likely see the gradual drop of the number of non-government schools to the proportion we see in places like Finland.
Yep, I get that. I'm just unsure what more you are wanting as a reply.
The feasibilities of your suggestions are there, but I just don't see it happening. That's just my opinion, of course.
- Jul 27, 2013
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i admire and respect your positivity and sincerity, and I apologise for any comments that may have contradicted this. But I simply think you overestimate the impact of fee levels on parent choice to send their kids to non-government schools. I live and ran a government school (now retired) in a large provincial city. I am now a grandparent, and my children are negotiating school choice. There is clearly social pressure on them to use the private sector and basically, the suggestion that you are not doing the best for your child if you opt for a state school. This is not my imagination. Friends who are strictly non-religious recently saw their daughter have her two kids baptised (which she never was) to help get them over the line in an exclusive Catholic girl's school. Parents will simply go without other things if the fees rise in private schools. The status and social pressure give them no choice plus I think the majority believe they are getting a better product. Politicians actively talk of state schools having interior values, etc. It really is a diabolical situation and not just about the funding. You'll find no other country has such a 2 tier system actively cultivated by governments.
There is some truth to this, but there are also many, many non-government schools where fees would absolutely have an impact on whether children go there or not (particularly in the primary space). This notion that nobody would leave the non-government school sector if fees increased significantly (to cover reductions in government funding) is simply not true in a lot of cases.
The "top end of town" schools are a different story, but are a minority in terms of total number of non-government schools.
- Jul 27, 2013
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How do you know? I suggest the drop off would be limited and manageable by a government system with under-used accommodation in many areas. Growth corridors maybe not so much but nothing a couple of the 2 story relocatables couldn't handle. Don't forget, the Catholic sector apparently can make arrangements for families who are having difficulty with the fees. Or so they said back in the day. I guess a fair slab of their enrolments arent even catholic anymore , so this generosity might be tempered a bit.
Chief
~ Shmalpha ~
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- #3,562
It was interesting that during the late 2000s financial crisis, my child's state primary all of a sudden had kids staying on into grade 5 and 6. A number of parents put off plans to send their kids to the local private school that started in grade 5, simply due to money problems.
Our school just built a few more classrooms.
- Jul 27, 2013
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If you're going to make a saving that's where you'd do it. The private primary school is a bit of a luxury item. Down the track no one gives a stuff what primary school you went to.The grade 5 move is usually just to stitch up the year 7 place. Bit like the baptisms,
I have been a part of the conversation. I don't see why I couldn't continue being a part of it.
No one here truly knows. We're just dealing with anecdotal opinions at the moment.
Firstly - thanks for that first sentence
. Back to the anecdotal evidence, you've clearly had your experience here, and I certainly can resonate with your example of the social pressures some may feel. However, in the area I work (and live) in, there are many highly regarded government and non-government schools. Attending any of those is seen as quality education. Another example is that property prices in one of what I see as the most boring suburbs in Victoria are elevated heavily by the fact that the address gives you access to Balwyn High School.
I can honestly say that if we were to have a fee bump there would be a fair few families leaving, and the surrounding government schools are not struggling for numbers at all and would likely struggle with the influx. They don't have the land space and local council restricts building up. I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that there's also restriction on total student numbers based on total land area... so going up may not allow for more numbers anyway. Happy to be corrected on that though!
- Jul 27, 2013
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I don't know of any such restriction. If there is, its come in since I was in the game. Many gov schools are less than full and there is a massive fleet of relocatable stock. In nominating Balwyn HS youve hit on an outlier and a half. In the dept its considered the Scotch College of the gov schools. Just remember though that the gov provides schools in areas where no private school would dream of opening.No one here truly knows. We're just dealing with anecdotal opinions at the moment.
Firstly - thanks for that first sentence
Back to the anecdotal evidence, you've clearly had your experience here, and I certainly can resonate with your example of the social pressures some may feel. However, in the area I work (and live) in, there are many highly regarded government and non-government schools. Attending any of those is seen as quality education. Another example is that property prices in one of what I see as the most boring suburbs in Victoria are elevated heavily by the fact that the address gives you access to Balwyn High School.
I can honestly say that if we were to have a fee bump there would be a fair few families leaving, and the surrounding government schools are not struggling for numbers at all and would likely struggle with the influx. They don't have the land space and local council restricts building up. I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that there's also restriction on total student numbers based on total land area... so going up may not allow for more numbers anyway. Happy to be corrected on that though!
Sorry, I may have not been clear, I think the size restriction is actually a local council one (as would the building story restriction). Possibly specific for the area I work in? I'd imagine it may be characteristic for established suburbs?
Balwyn is not a standalone example in that area either. My point is, every area would be different. Some will have government schools that have the capacity to take on an influx, some would not. Hence why we may have different anecdotal opinions on this.
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- Oct 4, 2016
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that is why it needs to be a staged process. to give gov’t schools time to build the infrastructure and get the personnel. that shouldn’t prevent us from starting the process. going after the wealthy end first.
Which is what I've been saying all along. I don't think there's been any suggestion that we shouldn't start (in fact, and again, there is already change in the right direction).
It seems the conversation is getting regularly mixed up between immediate vs staged funding model adjustment.
- Jul 27, 2013
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I see that we're making progress with the "reviews" 
- Jul 16, 2013
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I understand that lots of smaller private schools rely on government funding for survival but **** me.
Public schools should receive at minimum 50% more than private schools. No wonder the public system has gone down the shitter in the last two decades (I am a teacher and work in the public sector)
Public schools should receive at minimum 50% more than private schools. No wonder the public system has gone down the shitter in the last two decades (I am a teacher and work in the public sector)
They do. Public schools receive almost 100% more government funding than non-government schools. Remember that schools receive funding from both federal and state governments.
F*ing rinse and repeat... Another article that points out something that is already known and being addressed, without making any reference to the fact that this is being rectified...I see that we're making progress with the "reviews"
Agree with the recommendation to have a floor rather than cap for Federal contributions, though I doubt it will get over the line, some (many?) states are quite comfortable with not fully funding their schools. Despite being a state responsibility, state school funding still generates more issues for federal governments than states.
Would be nice if state pollies took responsibility for their bad decisions? Look at Shepparton High, Melbourne based crats decide to merge four bad schools and created one large under resourced violent school. Got media attention, introduced changes in policies but in the short term made the stats look better while things actually got worse. Now things are so bad, even cooked books can't hide them with families who have the resources fleeing to the private system, poorer decent hard working families just not sending kids anymore and teachers in constant fear.
Money would help but better policies and local led decision making informed by teachers not crats and all parts of society not just a few groups will help more.
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