Review Round 6, 2024 - Brisbane Lions vs. Geelong

[Squizz89]

I mean we got McCluggage with pick three while Essendon struggle with McGrath not living up to potential. s**t happens. JHF literally left the club that drafted him first overall.

I’d stop looking at players through the lens of where they are drafted after 4-5 years and start looking at the talents we picked up in each draft as a whole.

We got Rayner, Bailey, Starcevich and Payne that 2017 draft.

In 2016 we got McCluggage, Berry and Big O.

The only player we got out of the 2018 draft is Answerth.

We got Kiddy, Dev and Prior from 2019.

We got Sharp and Smith in 2020.

Wilmot, Tunstill and Lohmann in 2021.

Ashcroft and Fletcher in 2022.

2018 was very disappointing. There’s a decent chance that Kiddy is the only long term consistent seniors player we get out of 2018/19/20 though Smith is obviously long term as a ruck prospect.

Overall, 2017 was probably our best draft haul.

Yeah good point. It’s an exercise that can only be performed in hindsight, but Walsh, Rowell, JUH, JHF, Cadman (would’ve been Will in an open draft) and Reid are all the top picks after Cam’s draft, which just highlights how top end that number one pick can actually be.

As briztoon said it probably comes down to a bit of development too both from the club and Cam’s perspective. Love him as one of ours, but shit if we could get the type of performance out of him on a more consistent basis that some of those other names have produced, we’d have probably won a flag by now.

 

[buttermuffs]

Yeah it wasn’t so much as to the players we missed out in that draft, as you say it was pretty average. It’s more the year we really bottomed out, we didn’t have one of those “generational” type players as a stand out in their draft pool.

You’re right though I’m not sure his development has been helped by playing him in a number of different roles, but on the flip side I’m not sure Cam has always put himself in peak condition to command some of those “more senior” roles either. To his credit he does look fit this year though.

In those first couple years I’d definitely agree. It was documented that he and Witherden weren’t exactly 100% committed to fitness especially when it came to diet. Witherden was pushed out and Cam switched on but then did his ACL that preseason. 2022 was his first year back and then we got Ashcroft and Dunkley who are inside mids. He went back and then moved back forward. This season is the first one where it seems like there’s been some preparation for actual midfield time.

Overall, I think we failed at not giving him more centre bounce attendances and proper stints on ball from about halfway through 2022 onwards. The only explanation is that we gave Bailey a good run through as he also looked promising but I think he’s more effective at half forward.

Some of it is on Cam and some of it is on development.

 

[janty]

It's over.

 

[MSB ROYS]

It's over.

"Things are never as good or as bad as they seem", L. Matthews.

 

[buttermuffs]

Yeah good point. It’s an exercise that can only be performed in hindsight, but Walsh, Rowell, JUH, JHF, Cadman (would’ve been Will in an open draft) and Reid are all the top picks after Cam’s draft, which just highlights how top end that number one pick can actually be.

As briztoon said it probably comes down to a bit of development too both from the club and Cam’s perspective. Love him as one of ours, but s**t if we could get the type of performance out of him on a more consistent basis that some of those other names have produced, we’d have probably won a flag by now.

That’s fair.

What is interesting is how touch and go the first overall pick has been from 2017 and before.

2010: Swallow (220 games)
2011: Patton (95 games)
2012: Whitfield (209 games)
2013: Boyd (61 games)
2014: McCartin (63 games)
2015: Weitering (150 games)
2016: McGrath (133 games)
2017: Rayner(116 games)

From then onwards every first overall pick has been excellent but before it wasn’t as guaranteed. Weitering, Whitfield and Swallow have done great but I’d say only Weitering and Whitfield has played at levels seen by the likes of Walsh and Rowell. JUH and JHF have shown incredible flashes but lack the consistency. Cadman is a developing tall so of course he needs more time but Reid is playing better than JHF and JUH right now, he’s hustling that good.

I’d rank Rayner higher than Boyd, McCartin, Patton and I’d prefer him over McGrath even though McGrath’s had a better career.

I liken it to how the minor premiers for a long time never won the premiership and now they have won it in the past three seasons.

 

[M Malice]

This season has been so frustrating.

1- Would of got long odds we would be 0-3 at the Gabba.
2- We have played some of our best ever footy in the Fagan era ie. v Demons at the MCG for 3 quarters, a quarter and a bit against the Blues, a quarter against the Pies were all extraordinarily great footy. Just can not do it consistently, maybe that heart breaking GF loss took a lot out of the boys mentally.
3- The uncontrollable frustrations, Coleman, Doedee, Ashcroft ACLs.

All is not lost though, if we can jag the away win against the Giants we have a reasonably "easier" stretch of games > Suns(H), Crows(A), Tigers(H), Hawks(A), Bulldogs(A), Saints(H). We need at the absolute minimum to win 5 of those 7 games which would leave us at 7-6 and probably in the bottom half of the 8 for the run to the finals.

 

[DreadBat5701894]

It's over.

If we beat GWS our hopes are very much alive, as our fixture opens up dramatically after that game.

 

[MSB ROYS]

This season has been so frustrating.

1- Would of got long odds we would be 0-3 at the Gabba.
2- We have played some of our best ever footy in the Fagan era ie. v Demons at the MCG for 3 quarters, a quarter and a bit against the Blues, a quarter against the Pies were all extraordinarily great footy. Just can not do it consistently, maybe that heart breaking GF loss took a lot out of the boys mentally.
3- The uncontrollable frustrations, Coleman, Doedee, Ashcroft ACLs.

All is not lost though, if we can jag the away win against the Giants we have a reasonably "easier" stretch of games > Suns(H), Crows(A), Tigers(H), Hawks(A), Bulldogs(A), Saints(H). We need at the absolute minimum to win 5 of those 7 games which would leave us at 7-6 and probably in the bottom half of the 8 for the run to the finals.

This is what I am hoping as well!

 

[martinson]

Ironically the fixture worries me because we have form losing games against opposition we should comfortably beat.

The way we're clocking off during games any of those teams could beat us . We're just not going well enough to win 5 or 6 in a row but if we get a mental recharge and switch on for 4 quarters we beat them all.

I wouldn't be betting on it though.

 

[janty]

If we beat GWS our hopes are very much alive, as our fixture opens up dramatically after that game.

If we beat Geelong we would have been 3 - 3.

 

[knaf]

Petracca spoke about this as well, I believe between his fourth and fifth seasons. He wasn't living a proper professional life, concentrating on diet, fitness, etc. And as a kid, he was waaay ahead of Rayner.

This might have to be a development year for the team. Playing Rayner in midfield and put up with his growing pains of learning a new role. Keep playing Lohman. Give Tunstill a solid block of games. Maybe bring in one of the young third talls later in the season.

And give HSmith a run even it is as bad as that night Darcy gave Charman a lesson. Need to find out if the kid is the ruckman we need to replace Oscar.

 

[Elixuh]

This season has been so frustrating.

1- Would of got long odds we would be 0-3 at the Gabba.
2- We have played some of our best ever footy in the Fagan era ie. v Demons at the MCG for 3 quarters, a quarter and a bit against the Blues, a quarter against the Pies were all extraordinarily great footy. Just can not do it consistently, maybe that heart breaking GF loss took a lot out of the boys mentally.
3- The uncontrollable frustrations, Coleman, Doedee, Ashcroft ACLs.

All is not lost though, if we can jag the away win against the Giants we have a reasonably "easier" stretch of games > Suns(H), Crows(A), Tigers(H), Hawks(A), Bulldogs(A), Saints(H). We need at the absolute minimum to win 5 of those 7 games which would leave us at 7-6 and probably in the bottom half of the 8 for the run to the finals.

We need to go on a streak of 7 wins starting with the Giants. This is as soft a stretch coming up (after the giants) as we will probably get.

 

[cotter101]

Can we play Andrews, Lester and Gardiner back and Payne as a third tall forward? Gardiner is not working and I think Payne might actually do ok up forward.

Suggested this a couple of years ago and then we actually done it once McStay got injured and we had no Hipwood. IIRC it was in a final against the dogs.

Payne looked like he had a real presence up forward that we haven’t had since Brown, but got injured very early and missed 90% of the game.

I’d be trying this again.

 

[Scubaveg]

We make do. That’s an issue. We make do with Hipwood, we make do with Lyons, we make do with Rayner.
Outside of the last 2 games and one other a season since 2019 we make do with Berry. We’re making do with Gardiner in forward line. We make do relying on Lachie every week, we are short on quality support for him. Dev and Tunstill are the answer.


Instead of fixing these glaring issues continue to recruit and draft into the back line. McKenna, Prior, Doodee, Ah Chee, Brain, Reville. And despite this Coleman goes down we turn to a 36yo to play there, on top of that Lester continue to get a game. Hes been okay, but in himself is an example of how bad the drafting and recruiting has been. What exactly are they after in the backline that isn’t/wasn’t available causing the need to double down time and again in this area of the ground over other areas with glaring issues.


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[martinson]

That’s fair.

What is interesting is how touch and go the first overall pick has been from 2017 and before.

2010: Swallow (220 games)
2011: Patton (95 games)
2012: Whitfield (209 games)
2013: Boyd (61 games)
2014: McCartin (63 games)
2015: Weitering (150 games)
2016: McGrath (133 games)
2017: Rayner(116 games)

From then onwards every first overall pick has been excellent but before it wasn’t as guaranteed. Weitering, Whitfield and Swallow have done great but I’d say only Weitering and Whitfield has played at levels seen by the likes of Walsh and Rowell. JUH and JHF have shown incredible flashes but lack the consistency. Cadman is a developing tall so of course he needs more time but Reid is playing better than JHF and JUH right now, he’s hustling that good.

I’d rank Rayner higher than Boyd, McCartin, Patton and I’d prefer him over McGrath even though McGrath’s had a better career.

I liken it to how the minor premiers for a long time never won the premiership and now they have won it in the past three seasons.

Looking through those Patton looked great early and injuries cruelled him , Boyd never had his heart in it with mental health issues but was a major factor in the Dogs winning their flag , and McCartin just kept getting knocked out and never got to play anywhere near the level he could. I think all three were better than Rayner as far as potential to be LT players go but didn't deliver for reasons outside their control.

Rayner and Walker are on about a par with what they've delivered so far though Walker has been far more consistent.

To me Rayner looks confused half the time at what he's meant to be doing and the time's come to settle on whatever his role is and let him focus solely on that.

 

[mpal6]

Suggested this a couple of years ago and then we actually done it once McStay got injured and we had no Hipwood. IIRC it was in a final against the dogs.

Payne looked like he had a real presence up forward that we haven’t had since Brown, but got injured very early and missed 90% of the game.

I’d be trying this again.

Payne comes across as too passive regardless of where he plays. I doubt he'd ever run a straight line and put a knee on someone's back to launch himself and mark a footy. If I see it one day, I'll start believing.

 

[Clarkythelion]

2 hours to drive from the farm to the Gabba in the rain. Another couple of hours watching the game in the rain. Then 2 hours to drive home in the rain to get back to the farm.

For what - To watch Jack Payne drop his head and shake it like a horse because he was beaten, to watch Noah Answerth

43

Noah Answerth

Age

25

Ht

183cm

Wt

82kg

Pos.

D/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.0

3star

K

8.6

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.7

4star

T

2.9

4star

MG

208.9

3star

D

15.0

4star

K

15.0

5star

HB

0.0

1star

M

4.0

4star

T

2.0

3star

MG

357.0

5star

D

12.0

3star

K

7.8

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

3.4

4star

T

3.0

5star

MG

179.2

3star

twice step back from the contest and wait to tackle the opposition once they had the ball. To again watch Charlie cameron

23

Charlie Cameron

Age

30

Ht

180cm

Wt

76kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.1

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

3.7

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

5star

G

1.5

5star

D

9.6

2star

K

7.9

3star

HB

1.7

1star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.9

5star

D

9.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.2

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

3.4

5star

G

1.2

4star

line up for goal at a crucial moment with an easy drop punt and just blow it. Dumb wet weather football all round, under 8's know to just move the ball forward as far as they can and get players to the back of the marking contest for the ball to come sliding/slipping off hands.

The Melbourne game appears to be a one off now.

Well done Joe, I thought he battled well. Lester again showing he is in his best form. Special mentions to Zorko and Neal and possibly Wilmont but driving home in some damp clothes I couldn't help wonder how we have fallen apart from last year where we won every game at home to have lost all we have played so far. Fingers crossed for a late season run of extraordinary wins.

 

[Section 5]

Before the game i had us a 50/50 chance of winning.
So, the result not surprising against the now clear ladder leader in the competition.

Wasted opportunities in the 1st relatively dry quarter did us no favors.
We should have had 5 goals on the board by quarter time.
Thats important considering we only ended up with 4 goals for the whole game.

Geelong pretty much got all their goals from a break/turnover either on the HB or wing line.
That gave them the opportunity to find a loose player inside the 25/40 line.
Not out towards the forward pocket boundary where the Lions decided was their bets avenue to goal in the wet, for some strange reason or other.
The Geelong players pretty much kicked all their getable shots on goal.
That won't happen for most teams in wet conditions but kudos to them for making the most of limited shots on goal in trying conditions.

I rarely give it to the coach, but players were either:

• following instructions playing a dry type of weather game plan that we saw them trying to implement way too often.
• ignoring instructions and falling back on what they usually do in normal conditions.

However, if the players were ignoring instructions that falls back on the game day coaching anyhow.

If ever a game after 1/4 time should have been a man-on-man, no zoning wet weather type play it was last night.
Yet we let them have a loose man in defense, and still persisted with some sort of zone for a reasonable chunk of gametime.

Forwards are not performing when the team only kicks 4 goals in total, irrespective of the conditions.
Two goals scored by our half back one to a winger. McCarthy the only forward to goal and that was at the 58 second mark of the game.
That means for 2 hours 6 minutes and 55 seconds no forward kicked a goal.

Lots on here will disagree but i think we played better than Geelong except the last 10 minutes of the game when it was out of our reach, and we dropped off completely.
The problem is we are 2-4 and play the 2nd team on the ladder Thursday evening.
At least we are not favorites with the bookies so that gives us a chance.

 

[RoyBoy17]

We are lacking in quality/ class. Our game style is and has been just bashing teams into submission. Our contested game is strong and we rarely get beat in that area but that can only take you so far. Yes, we made the granny. But we didn’t win it and now we are struggling and have seemed to have gone backwards. Our key position players at both ends have let us down badly in games. And our forward group up until the last few weeks have been disorganised, appear unfit or just lazy.

We have seen now over a number of years poor kicking for goal and poor decision making inside 50 as key issues. That’s a personnel thing and short of getting rid of players and recruiting properly there isn’t much we can do.

Hipwood won’t be dropped but I would love for us at some stage try a smaller forward line and have a bigger emphasis on hitting up shorter options as opposed to bombing it and hoping for the best. Especially when we don’t even have contested marking beasts in the forward line.

Outside of trades, we drafted poorly for a few years and missed out on a few handy additions to this current side and it has now started to show by having a lack of depth.

 

[Section 5]

2 hours to drive from the farm to the Gabba in the rain. Another couple of hours watching the game in the rain. Then 2 hours to drive home in the rain to get back to the farm.

For what - To watch Jack Payne drop his head and shake it like a horse because he was beaten, to watch Noah Answerth twice step back from the contest and wait to tackle the opposition once they had the ball. To again watch Charlie cameron line up for goal at a crucial moment with an easy drop punt and just blow it. Dumb wet weather football all round, under 8's know to just move the ball forward as far as they can and get players to the back of the marking contest for the ball to come sliding/slipping off hands.

The Melbourne game appears to be a one off now.

Well done Joe, I thought he battled well. Lester again showing he is in his best form. Special mentions to Zorko and Neal and possibly Wilmont but driving home in some damp clothes I couldn't help wonder how we have fallen apart from last year where we won every game at home to have lost all we have played so far. Fingers crossed for a late season run of extraordinary wins.

When we lose the longer the drive home the worse it is.
However, being a farmer, the rain usually would be one good thing from the weekend.

 

[Clarkythelion]

Torrential rain, hard to plan for. Tactics almost revert to Under 9’s. Kick it long and keep it in front. We’d want a response next week.
Our draw is very difficult, and our midfield is desperately needing Ashcroft. If we are to challenge it will need to be a Doggies 2016 type run by the looks.

The rain had been coming all day, it started on the Sunshine Coast in the morning, the radar showed it hitting North Brisbane at 5 pm, I know I drove from the Sunshine Coast Hinterland with the rain. A trained monkey could see the size of the rain clouds, the Courier mail and warnings all day long about the deluge. I can't see any excuses whatsoever about the coaching staff not reminding players what it's like to play in the wet. In the first 3 months of 2024 we have had more rain then all of last year so it's not like we haven't had opportunities to train in it. I totally agree, we just didn't adapt and we have a tough draw for the year, lets hope Fagan finds the answers soon.

 

[Happy_Neale]

Really obvious that Geelong players were so much smarter than ours. Their team isn’t that good but they know where to be at any given time. Probably the worst team to play in the wet given the differences are amplified

 

[Squizz89]

Another player who certainly isn’t at the same level he was at a couple of seasons ago when AA started getting mentioned is Starce.

He obviously got shown up in the GF, then again in the rematch against the Pies a couple of weeks ago and again last night I thought Stengle was probably close to their best in those conditions.

A bit like Payne his effort towards the contest seemed a bit off a couple of times last night.

It’s no coincidence we are struggling more defensively this year missing Kiddy (HUGE out), McKenna, and then losing Doedee on top of that. Coupled that with Starce/Payne not at the level we know they’re capable of, it’s really been left to Harris, Lester and Motty to carry that defence.

 

[iBeng]

Ah Chee is another play that doesnt seem to be really living up to any potential he has. Always tries to bite off more than he can chew, pops up for an occasional great mark but otherwise doesnt really impact.

 

[Ceebee]

Must say how impressed I am with young Noah and also Darcy Wilmot .
Try their best at all times and seemingly have no fear .
Kai tries hard , but attempts huge marks that he is not really capable of yet .
I am hopeful of improvement in all these young boys .