Preview Round 7, 2021: St.Kilda v Hawthorn - Marvel Stadium, Saturday 1st May, 4:35PM AEST *CROUCH 100TH*

[ScrappyDo]

It's hard to criticise the man, but would like to see a bit more direction and passion towards his teammates from Steele as the captain- not knocking his efforts as a player, but as a captain you need to bring a little bit extra. I just don't see much leadership out there. Over the years I've seen and played sport with guys who are natural leaders and drag others along with them, and those who are not, although very good at what they do.

Give him time. It'll click for him eventually.

 

[Circus]

Give him time. It'll click for him eventually.

I hope it's as soon as tomorrow, during the first quarter when he absolutely loses his temper and let's rip at his "helpers," otherwise he'll be a worn out, forlorn wreck later this season. There is simply no excuse for a lack of intensity, passion or commitment. There is no structure, system, cohesion or even a sense of triumph in a win without that. There is no team without passion. If we lose tomorrow I'd drop the players out of a helicopter without parachutes and get them to help each other land safely.

 

[AirWinmar]

As said sometimes bad training session is not bad thing , some guys are frustrated .

Love to say ball movement to forwards is great it’s not.

Would say however we did train with ball movement around the ground differently , it was more in line
with rule changes ..let’s see what happens.

Appreciate your traxk reports S66. Not a great sign that ball movement isn't looking great during training..

 

[ScrappyDo]

I hope it's as soon as tomorrow, during the first quarter when he absolutely loses his temper and let's rip at his "helpers," otherwise he'll be a worn out, forlorn wreck later this season. There is simply no excuse for a lack of intensity, passion or commitment. There is no structure, system, cohesion or even a sense of triumph in a win without that. There is no team without passion. If we lose tomorrow I'd drop the players out of a helicopter without parachutes and get them to help each other land safely.

I know it's not easy to see but the team is in a pressure cooker at the moment. It won't be easy for Jack as a self confessed introvert, but I'm waiting for the lid to blow off and have him deliver a massive bake to the team.
Right now it seems he believes that leading by example is his way, but if the others still don't follow he will need to learn a new trick to whip them onto shape.. Fear is one of the greatest motivators.

 

[Greshs Eye]

Wouldn't a win be nice just to cool the temperature a bit. Forget about the context of the season as a whole. It feels like its never been tougher to support the Saints than right now. No easy answers, every saints supporter I've talked to has a different theory on what has happened- Is it effort, fitness or game plan ? We've just got to dig in and fight our way out. Hang in there everyone.

 

[saintsrfreak]

What is going wrong with St Kilda’s misfiring midfield?

By Daniel Cherny
April 30, 2021 — 11.30am


There is little doubt Paddy Ryder, who returns to face Hawthorn on Saturday, makes the Saints a better player when he is in their 22, but expecting he - or Rowan Marshall - to be the panacea to St Kilda’s ills is wishful thinking.
The AFL’s official player ratings had Marshall best afield last Sunday night against Port Adelaide in just his second game of the season and yet the Saints were crushed by 54 points, their third non-competitive showing out of four.

There are issues all over the ground: small forward Dan Butler hasn’t replicated his 2020 form, while the defence - sans Ben Paton and Jarryn Geary - has been regularly overawed. But it is the midfield to which most responsibility must be sheeted home. On paper it is an accomplished group, even without the injured Jade Gresham and perpetually injured Dan Hannebery.
Jack Steele, Brad Crouch, Bradley Hill and Seb Ross are all winners of AFL club best-and-fairest awards. Along with Zak Jones and Jack Billings they are all between 25 and 27. This is a group that should be close to the peak of its powers. And yet it is misfiring. The Age approached coaching staff from rival clubs - speaking this week on the condition of anonymity - in a bid to better understand where St Kilda are being let down.

The Saints have had a disappointing run of losses.CREDIT:GETTY IMAGES
After a noticeably up-tempo training session on Thursday at which Jones and Hill had an eye-catching heated exchange, Saints coach Brett Ratten said his side needed to play more ferocious football.
“A little bit more intensity, without the ball, with the ball, and a bit more urgency around our communication and what we’re trying to achieve. We’ve had a few weeks that we haven’t been at the level that we want to,” Ratten said.



This view was shared elsewhere in the league. It was noted that the Saints’ contested and ground-ball numbers were well down on the same point of last season. St Kilda have won the contested possession count just once in six rounds in 2021, in their stirring comeback win over West Coast in round four.
A theme from the rival views espoused was that the Saints had been drawn towards the ball too much and not paying enough respect defensively to their opponents. While a lack of cohesion - Crouch is only four games into his St Kilda career - was identified as part of the explanation, there was also a suggestion that the Saints’ midfielders looked overly focused on themselves and not in playing their part in a system.

St Kilda’s contested ball
The Saints have lost the contested possession count in five of six games this season.
Opposition (result) Con Poss
Port Adelaide (L) -9
Richmond (L) -19
West Coast (W) +23
Essendon (L) -4
Melbourne (L) -14
GWS (W) -30
Source: Champion Data

Hill, understandably, has been the Saint most squarely in focus on the back of consecutive 10-disposals matches (one of which was ended slightly early with an Achilles concern). The view from one rival club was that Hill - unarguably an outside player - would be performing much better at a team that was winning (see Ed Langdon at Melbourne) but also that Hill needed to do more to help himself, and couldn’t rely on being fed by his teammates. The incident in which he spilled a chest mark and then failed to vigorously chase Richmond’s Marlion Pickett in round five was not looked upon kindly.
Then there is the uncontested possession count, which the Saints lost by 141 against Port having already copped a triple-figure hiding in that statistic against Essendon. Ratten publicly rejected an assertion that workrate was to blame for such disparities, but that view was not shared among those questioned about the numbers for this story.

Perhaps the strongest theme from these discussions was that the Saints’ lack of accountability meant the ball was spending way too much time in their defence, meaning St Kilda had to work even harder to get the ball back, generally in their back half, meaning they have had less energy to exert in attack and were easier to defend against.
It is a vicious cycle, in contrast to that of the high-flying Western Bulldogs, whose midfield dominance has helped protect an arguably vulnerable back line.
For all that the ground-level players are under the microscope, one opposition coach pointed out that barely having an AFL-quality ruckman for five weeks hadn’t helped. But with Marshall and Ryder now back, there can be no excuses.

 

[Saintbloke]

I was saying last season, that one of our weaknesses was our midfield defensive game, even though we were doing much better in contests- now it is worse and we are not getting hands on ball either. It's what you do off the ball that makes a difference- think back to when Lyon dropped NDS and Milne.
I think old Dermie had a point last week when he said the Saints players were all hanging around packs waiting for someone to feed them the ball.

I'll go nuts if I see any more of a bunch of three Saints all tackling one player, and then it slips out to free opposition players, or a group of Saints player all flying for the ball, and it slips out the back to the opposition. It's as much a coaching thing as a player thing- not disciplined enough in our drills and setups around packs. Hope they get it right this week.

 

[CaptainRisky]

The thing that worries me which was raised before is how there was no excitement when Higgins kicked the first goal of the game and what a goal it was , With that , the Jones-Hill thing I'm sure there is something NQR at Moorabbin ATM , They played with such passion last year , this year non

 

[LiterallyNobody]

You know what?

I’m actually completely devoid of any faith we’ll even try to rectify the mistakes.

the media has been saying the same shit for weeks and Ratten and co have had plenty of opportunity to actually do something about it. As nothing has still been done I’m going to assume It stays that way.

6 wins.

 

[LiterallyNobody]

The thing that worries me which was raised before is how there was no excitement when Higgins kicked the first goal of the game and what a goal it was , With that , the Jones-Hill thing I'm sure there is something NQR at Moorabbin ATM , They played with such passion last year , this year non

My first thought was he is trying to take it seriously and focus on the bigger picture not a miracle goal. I didn’t read any more into it. But yeah, something doesn’t add up. Until that is addressed and then rectified, this season ain’t going nowhere.

too negative? DGAF.

 

[Saintbloke]

The thing that worries me which was raised before is how there was no excitement when Higgins kicked the first goal of the game and what a goal it was , With that , the Jones-Hill thing I'm sure there is something NQR at Moorabbin ATM , They played with such passion last year , this year non

That goal was a gem, but you wouldn't know it with the body language of the team that game- very untogether and uninterested.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I was saying last season, that one of our weaknesses was our midfield defensive game, even though we were doing much better in contests- now it is worse and we are not getting hands on ball either. It's what you do off the ball that makes a difference- think back to when Lyon dropped NDS and Milne.
I think old Dermie had a point last week when he said the Saints players were all hanging around packs waiting for someone to feed them the ball.

I'll go nuts if I see any more of a bunch of three Saints all tackling one player, and then it slips out to free opposition players, or a group of Saints player all flying for the ball, and it slips out the back to the opposition. It's as much a coaching thing as a player thing- not disciplined enough in our drills and setups around packs. Hope they get it right this week.

The defensive ability (or intent) of our midfield has been an ongoing problem for long time. It's like watching U12's play a lot of the time... blokes happy to run forward but breaking out of a jog after a turnover (yet another turnover) is too much to ask.

I don't think it has as much to do with our tactical set ups as it's footy IQ and intent. We just have too many players in vital roles that play dumb and then don't work hard enough to make up for it.

Outside of Steele and maybe Jones, our midfield is filled with guys who hate defending.

And that's something that's got to change fast.

 

[The_Steadier]

Would say however we did train with ball movement around the ground differently , it was more in line
with rule changes ..let’s see what happens.

Hallelujah.

Good thing we have 'the best strategist in the comp' in rath leading the way (6 months AFTER most other teams changed their playing style to take advantage of the new rules)

Rath is making the pelican look competent by comparison.

Meanwhile, quite a few parallels between the two- both look like they were merely in the right place at the right time to get all the slaps on the back for hawthorns success.

We bought it hook line and sinker x2 ... and sunk.

 

[The_Steadier]

What is going wrong with St Kilda’s misfiring midfield?

By Daniel Cherny
April 30, 2021 — 11.30am


There is little doubt Paddy Ryder, who returns to face Hawthorn on Saturday, makes the Saints a better player when he is in their 22, but expecting he - or Rowan Marshall - to be the panacea to St Kilda’s ills is wishful thinking.
The AFL’s official player ratings had Marshall best afield last Sunday night against Port Adelaide in just his second game of the season and yet the Saints were crushed by 54 points, their third non-competitive showing out of four.

There are issues all over the ground: small forward Dan Butler hasn’t replicated his 2020 form, while the defence - sans Ben Paton and Jarryn Geary - has been regularly overawed. But it is the midfield to which most responsibility must be sheeted home. On paper it is an accomplished group, even without the injured Jade Gresham and perpetually injured Dan Hannebery.
Jack Steele, Brad Crouch, Bradley Hill and Seb Ross are all winners of AFL club best-and-fairest awards. Along with Zak Jones and Jack Billings they are all between 25 and 27. This is a group that should be close to the peak of its powers. And yet it is misfiring. The Age approached coaching staff from rival clubs - speaking this week on the condition of anonymity - in a bid to better understand where St Kilda are being let down.

The Saints have had a disappointing run of losses.CREDIT:GETTY IMAGES
After a noticeably up-tempo training session on Thursday at which Jones and Hill had an eye-catching heated exchange, Saints coach Brett Ratten said his side needed to play more ferocious football.
“A little bit more intensity, without the ball, with the ball, and a bit more urgency around our communication and what we’re trying to achieve. We’ve had a few weeks that we haven’t been at the level that we want to,” Ratten said.



This view was shared elsewhere in the league. It was noted that the Saints’ contested and ground-ball numbers were well down on the same point of last season. St Kilda have won the contested possession count just once in six rounds in 2021, in their stirring comeback win over West Coast in round four.
A theme from the rival views espoused was that the Saints had been drawn towards the ball too much and not paying enough respect defensively to their opponents. While a lack of cohesion - Crouch is only four games into his St Kilda career - was identified as part of the explanation, there was also a suggestion that the Saints’ midfielders looked overly focused on themselves and not in playing their part in a system.

St Kilda’s contested ball
The Saints have lost the contested possession count in five of six games this season.
Opposition (result) Con Poss
Port Adelaide (L) -9
Richmond (L) -19
West Coast (W) +23
Essendon (L) -4
Melbourne (L) -14
GWS (W) -30
Source: Champion Data

Hill, understandably, has been the Saint most squarely in focus on the back of consecutive 10-disposals matches (one of which was ended slightly early with an Achilles concern). The view from one rival club was that Hill - unarguably an outside player - would be performing much better at a team that was winning (see Ed Langdon at Melbourne) but also that Hill needed to do more to help himself, and couldn’t rely on being fed by his teammates. The incident in which he spilled a chest mark and then failed to vigorously chase Richmond’s Marlion Pickett in round five was not looked upon kindly.
Then there is the uncontested possession count, which the Saints lost by 141 against Port having already copped a triple-figure hiding in that statistic against Essendon. Ratten publicly rejected an assertion that workrate was to blame for such disparities, but that view was not shared among those questioned about the numbers for this story.

Perhaps the strongest theme from these discussions was that the Saints’ lack of accountability meant the ball was spending way too much time in their defence, meaning St Kilda had to work even harder to get the ball back, generally in their back half, meaning they have had less energy to exert in attack and were easier to defend against.
It is a vicious cycle, in contrast to that of the high-flying Western Bulldogs, whose midfield dominance has helped protect an arguably vulnerable back line.
For all that the ground-level players are under the microscope, one opposition coach pointed out that barely having an AFL-quality ruckman for five weeks hadn’t helped. But with Marshall and Ryder now back, there can be no excuses.

Odd conclusion to draw that merely addressing our contested poss count would go a long way to fixing our performance.... given we practically broke even with the bombers and were utterly humiliated in that game.

Yes, the article then goes onto address our smashings in uncontested ball v port and bombers... but it's more an afterthought.

Just goes to show the dangers of trying to find fixes to problems solely looking at stats sheets.

The fix for our woes isn't in focusing on improving any particular stats... it's in improving how and when we pass the ball to eachother.

The best teams this year are putting a premium on maintaining possession- the total opposite of what we do, where we try and catch the opposition napping by banging chaos balls forward quickly.

Worked well last year, but the new rules have made it easier for sides to play keepings off.
Which is very bad news for us, because our choas ball plan has baked into its core high risk of giving the ball back to the opposition often.

Once we start valuing possession of the ball more (ie play keepings off too moving the ball up the field), suddenly our our stats will improve. It's completely wrong headed to try and improve stats to improve how you play.
Improve how you play, and the stats will reflect it.

 

[The Punter]

The problem is not three players going in for a tackle. The problem is the ball getting out despite three players being in the tackle.

It's been a recurring and consistent theme throughout the last decade whenever we play poorly: we don't stop the ball.

A tackle where the ball spills free is an ineffective tackle. The only acceptable outcomes from a tackle are a free kick to the tackler or a stoppage.

 

[StCicatriz]

The problem is not three players going in for a tackle. The problem is the ball getting out despite three players being in the tackle.

It's been a recurring and consistent theme throughout the last decade whenever we play poorly: we don't stop the ball.

A tackle where the ball spills free is an ineffective tackle. The only acceptable outcomes from a tackle are a free kick to the tackler or a stoppage.

i love the Punter truth bombs! you've got a good eye!

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Odd conclusion to draw that merely addressing our contested poss count would go a long way to fixing our performance.... given we practically broke even with the bombers and were utterly humiliated in that game.

Yes, the article then goes onto address our smashings in uncontested ball v port and bombers... but it's more an afterthought.

Just goes to show the dangers of trying to find fixes to problems solely looking at stats sheets.

The fix for our woes isn't in focusing on improving any particular stats... it's in improving how and when we pass the ball to eachother.

The best teams this year are putting a premium on maintaining possession- the total opposite of what we do, where we try and catch the opposition napping by banging chaos balls forward quickly.

Worked well last year, but the new rules have made it easier for sides to play keepings off.
Which is very bad news for us, because our choas ball plan has baked into its core high risk of giving the ball back to the opposition often.

Once we start valuing possession of the ball more (ie play keepings off too moving the ball up the field), suddenly our our stats will improve. It's completely wrong headed to try and improve stats to improve how you play.
Improve how you play, and the stats will reflect it.

That bugs me in business ( KPI's ) too.
KPI's aren't results they are indicators. So are AFL statistics.
They may give you a clue as to what you are doing wrong, but you shouldn't be chasing the stats for the sake of improving the stat.

 

[PostmanBish]

Invoke the spirit of 2008 - 34 points down shortly before half time and a rousing Nick Riewoldt speech fired us up for a whopping eight goal third term.

the highlight perhaps is at 1:37:50 when Clint Jones runs down Buddy. Enjoy.

The game that got my wife "into footy", after I'd been trying to get her to games in Sydney for years prior ...

... to think, if the Hawks had won that match she might never have been into it, or might have been celebrating multiple flags ... LOL

 

[Saintbloke]

Odd conclusion to draw that merely addressing our contested poss count would go a long way to fixing our performance.... given we practically broke even with the bombers and were utterly humiliated in that game.

Yes, the article then goes onto address our smashings in uncontested ball v port and bombers... but it's more an afterthought.

Just goes to show the dangers of trying to find fixes to problems solely looking at stats sheets.

The fix for our woes isn't in focusing on improving any particular stats... it's in improving how and when we pass the ball to eachother.

The best teams this year are putting a premium on maintaining possession- the total opposite of what we do, where we try and catch the opposition napping by banging chaos balls forward quickly.

Worked well last year, but the new rules have made it easier for sides to play keepings off.
Which is very bad news for us, because our choas ball plan has baked into its core high risk of giving the ball back to the opposition often.

Once we start valuing possession of the ball more (ie play keepings off too moving the ball up the field), suddenly our our stats will improve. It's completely wrong headed to try and improve stats to improve how you play.
Improve how you play, and the stats will reflect it.

The other thing to ponder is actually getting the ball- we can't seem to get it enough to do anything.

 

[austinnn]

The thing that worries me which was raised before is how there was no excitement when Higgins kicked the first goal of the game and what a goal it was , With that , the Jones-Hill thing I'm sure there is something NQR at Moorabbin ATM , They played with such passion last year , this year non

I saw that and thought at the time that he was holding back his emotion because he expected the video playback to rule it out at first and then kind of just went with it to make him look cool.

Then I thought maybe it was a message to other players to get into work mode and just get it done. Looks pretty bad celebrating the first goal when you've been getting done by 10 goals in most games.

But I suspect you may be right.

 

[Joffaboy]

What is going wrong with St Kilda’s misfiring midfield?

Don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this, but apparently the Saints could have selected Petracca over McCartin.

Does anybody know anything about the urban myth?

 

[Premium]

Odd conclusion to draw that merely addressing our contested poss count would go a long way to fixing our performance.... given we practically broke even with the bombers and were utterly humiliated in that game.

Yes, the article then goes onto address our smashings in uncontested ball v port and bombers... but it's more an afterthought.

Just goes to show the dangers of trying to find fixes to problems solely looking at stats sheets.

The fix for our woes isn't in focusing on improving any particular stats... it's in improving how and when we pass the ball to eachother.

The best teams this year are putting a premium on maintaining possession- the total opposite of what we do, where we try and catch the opposition napping by banging chaos balls forward quickly.

Worked well last year, but the new rules have made it easier for sides to play keepings off.
Which is very bad news for us, because our choas ball plan has baked into its core high risk of giving the ball back to the opposition often.

Once we start valuing possession of the ball more (ie play keepings off too moving the ball up the field), suddenly our our stats will improve. It's completely wrong headed to try and improve stats to improve how you play.
Improve how you play, and the stats will reflect it.

Winning contested ball is a must if you want to win a game but it is important what you do with it when you win it just like the Bombers game.

Essendon	Statistic	St Kilda
124	Contested Possessions	120
308	Uncontested Possessions	201
358	Effective Disposals	238

they had over 100 more effective disposals , this is the area they have to fix and it was a area they said they aimed to fix.

 

[The_Steadier]

The other thing to ponder is actually getting the ball- we can't seem to get it enough to do anything.

Correct, although I would say that we are getting it enough... but giving it back far easier than our opposition is.

That results in the opposition having far more total possessions than us.

If we maintained possession more, that would lower the oppositions possession count, and total possession counts would be closer to even between the 2 sides.

 

[Premium]

What is going wrong with St Kilda’s misfiring midfield?

Don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this, but apparently the Saints could have selected Petracca over McCartin.

Does anybody know anything about the urban myth?

I'm hoping Marshall , Steele , Crouch and Jones can start to win the ball in the middle then we will win games - the Hawks game we will see.

 

[The_Steadier]

Winning contested ball is a must if you want to win a game but it is important what you do with it when you win it just like the Bombers game.

Essendon	Statistic	St Kilda
124	Contested Possessions	120
308	Uncontested Possessions	201
358	Effective Disposals	238

they had over 100 more effective disposals , this is the area they have to fix and it was a area they said they aimed to fix.

There is to my eye a decent correlation between good 2021 teams and high total number of effective disposals.

Also conversely, there appears to be a decent correlation between weak 2021 teams and lower effective disposal totals.

AFL Statistics Team Rankings for Season 2021

AFL Statistics Team Rankings for Season 2021.

www.footywire.com

Of course the fix isn't to simply try and increase this stat.
But it serves to highlight that in 2021 gameplans that revolve around hitting up teammates have a better chance of success than hit and hope bombs onto tall forward heads.