Ruckman effectiveness stats - McEvoy very poor!

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Present Not Past said:
I can't see how things have changed for 2012 except that Ben has improved with experience and maturity but I'm not sure he's a number one ruckman yet.
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well if they introduce this 'cleaning-up of the ruck' rule it'll help ben hugely i reckon.

i reckon what had been slowing him a little had been that:

a. he wasn't rucking to lenny
b. as mentioned dal doesn't talk a lot and when there's no lenny
c. joey, armo and co dont have a huge influence even though joey is a great communicator
d. when he has come up against big units he's had to concede that all the arm grabbing that has been part of the game since forever hampers his effort.

he's up against the big boys now and this new rule is a godsend for benny and the saints.

how's that eh? a new rule that actually benefits the saints. unbelievable.
 
In the post mortem thread of our first win in 2011 (Rd 5 v Brisbane) I expressed a degree of dissatisfaction with the club's decisions regarding our rucking stocks and the performance of McEvoy in the early part of 2011.

Kildonan said:
I am very concerned with the state of our ruck. Both Kosi and McEvoy are slow and neither has dominated a match with their tap outs.

Brisbane showed blatant contempt by playing a second-gamer full time in the ruck and moving the other two talls forward to try and snatch a win by outmarking our defence. McCauley convincingly beat McEvoy and Kosi in the ruck. McCauley might be a champion in the making, but McEvoy should be able to at least break even with the 2nd gamer.

As the season progresses we will find more problems with our deficiencies in the ruck.

We already rue the choice to move Pattison on, and a glance at Stanley's ruckwork for Sandringham is not inspiring. Where is our next ruckman going to come from? We have no appropriate talls coming through. We are jeopardising the careers of players who are not suited to play as a ruckman in order to fill a short term need at Sandringham. Daniel Archer deserves a chance as a KPP. Saints will send Stanley back to Sandringham and try and make a ruckman out of him. Is that where he is best suited?
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Kildonan said:
With time and match experience, McEvoy will become a great tap ruckman.
His mentor, Steven King, will help him achieve his full potential.
Also I acknowledge that Ben is a smart man, he has a good football brain.

My concerns are:
that he is not quite there now, and is being dominated in the ruck
that he is slow, like Koschitzke is, and King was
that St Kilda knew where we stood wrt injury to Gardiner, and delisted our backup ruck stocks and decided to try to make do.
The loss of Gaertner was the last straw - we were given a chance to replace him and didn't.

The days of the lumbering ruckman are numbered (dinosaur is the term often used).

We are stuck with two dinosaurs and a gazelle who isn't ready yet.

The VFL affiliate also suffers from our lack of foresight. They are suffering already.

The Saints are in a very fragile position in the ruck and we must now wait until after the season ends to procure a trade or recruit a mature aged player because of the time delay required to produce a good ruckman from a raw ruck prospect.
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Squizzy1970 said:
No-one is saying that Macca doesn't have a good future.

We are just talking about whether - at the moment - to what degree losing the ruck contests is hurting the team, and whether the rucks are providing enough of a link-man coming out of defence.

The issue gets discussed in the interview with BJ on SEN:
http://www.sen.com.au/audioplayer/Audio/Brendon-Goddard---St.-Kilda-Star-Part-One/2203
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McEvoy turned his 2011 season around.

The BigFooty Saints board Best and Fairest Player award went to Dal easily but the player selected by all of us as second best was ... Ben McEvoy

Sure Ben tended to hit the ball to his feet rather than to the advantage of one of our players, but he is improving, his tapwork definitely improved as the year went on - Steven King's tutorage was very helpful. McEvoy is hugely fit and his work around the ground has stepped up to be the equal of almost any ruckman in the league. He carried the Saints in the ruck last year and is being asked to do the same again this year. His problem around the ground has mainly been against the really big ruckmen and wrestling for position. He should benefit from the new rule and from a natural improvement through match experience.
 
SamFisher25 said:
well if they introduce this 'cleaning-up of the ruck' rule it'll help ben hugely i reckon.

i reckon what had been slowing him a little had been that:

a. he wasn't rucking to lenny
b. as mentioned dal doesn't talk a lot and when there's no lenny
c. joey, armo and co dont have a huge influence even though joey is a great communicator
d. when he has come up against big units he's had to concede that all the arm grabbing that has been part of the game since forever hampers his effort.

he's up against the big boys now and this new rule is a godsend for benny and the saints.

how's that eh? a new rule that actually benefits the saints. unbelievable.
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That rule is only being tested in NAB Cup and no matter what happens it wont be implented in the 2012 AFL Season.
 

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Winners Only said:
This article off the Player Rater site is very good and puts in to perpective how poor McEvoy with his tap work.

http://www.playerrater.com.au/news/stat ... e-hit-outs

When analysing the effectiveness of a ruckman, it’s often the ‘hitouts’ column that draws the most attention. But just like with kicking and handballing, some players are more effective than others.

The table below focuses on statistical areas relating to the tap-work of ruckmen. Including: Hit-outs (HO), Hit-outs To Advantage (HTA) and Effective Hit-outs (%EffHO)
The difference between 'Hit-outs To Advantage' and 'Effective Hit-outs'- Hit-outs To Advantage: refer to when a player taps the ball directly to a teammate from a stoppage.- Effective Hit-outs: refer to hit-outs that result in retaining team possession - and ultimately first disposal.
Notes:
•The table is sorted by percentage of Hit-outs to Advantage (%HTA).•The rank on the left refers to Hit-outs per game (HO).•When it comes to delivering effective hit-outs, it’s the heavy built ruckmen (typically stand and tap ruckmen) like Mark Jamar, Darren Jolly and Shane Mumford that deliver the best results.•For the most part, ‘Hit-outs To Advantage’ and ‘Effective Hit-outs’ go hand in hand, but there are exceptions. Robbie Warnock is an example of a ruckman that gets flattered by the effectiveness of his midfielders. The numbers indicate that Warnock is good at tapping to a general area and gaining ground for his team, but not necessarily skilled at tapping directly to the advantage of a teammate.•By these measures, Sam Jacobs is perhaps the most misleading ruckmen in the league. Jacobs is ranked 5th in the AFL for hit-outs per game, but ranks toward the bottom in hit-outs to advantage and effective hit-outs.


Hit-out statistics (per game) 2011:

Rank Player GP HO HTA %HTA %EffHO
(HO)
6 M Jamar (MELB) 14 29.2 12.1 41.4 50.9
11 D Jolly (COLL) 12 24.8 9.8 39.5 54.0
3 S Mumford (SYD) 16 32.8 12.8 39.0 50.1
23 T Bellchambers 13 20.5 7.7 37.6 46.6
8 D Cox (WCE) 21 28.0 10.5 37.5 44.8
2 A Sandilands (FR 12 34.3 11.7 34.1 48.1
25 N Naitanui (WCE)19 18.1 6.1 33.7 44.5
18 B Hudson (WB) 16 22.5 7.4 32.9 48.3
28 Z Smith (GCS) 19 17.0 5.5 32.4 48.9
4 M Leuenberger (B)21 32.0 10.3 32.2 45.5
1 T Goldstein (NM) 20 36.2 11.3 31.2 48.5
7 R Warnock (C) 17 28.1 8.5 30.3 50.2
9 B Ottens (GEEL) 16 25.2 7.6 30.2 45.7
5 S Jacobs (ADEL) 18 31.9 9.6 30.1 44.8
19 M Bailey (HAW) 13 21.0 6.2 29.5 47.6
17 B McEvoy (STK) 20 22.6 6.6 29.2 44.2
22 D Brogan (PORT) 11 20.5 5.8 28.3 43.8
15 C Wood (COLL) 11 23.5 6.2 26.4 47.9
13 A Graham (RICH) 13 23.8 6.0 25.2 48.5

NOTE: That McEvoy has the 2nd lowest hit out effectiveness with only Brogan doing worse. If they also included hitouts per game time I think you would find McEvoy would slip further down the rankings. He rucked for long periods last year where as other lower rated ruckman had much less game time. I believe he would be the worst ranked ruckman in the competition.

Take the blinkers off people this clearly shows he is one of the worst ruckman in the competition!
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Jamar ranks up there because he has players who read him well like Moloney, Scully & Trengrove.

Also remember Jamar at least got tonnes of relief from players like Stefan Martin.

The same could be said for Cox, NicNat and Sandilands.

Yet Ben is as good a mark and kick for goal as any of the others.

Remember last year up in Sydney when our fellas got the runs from the vindaloos prior to the game. Macca got destroyed that day by Mumford & their bigs.

Rhys Stanley needs to harden up and stop being such a pinup dud. Kosi & Roo are not rucks.

Don't blame the man. A strong experienced Lenny will be great for third ups, much like Bartel has been at Geelong for Ottens,Hawkins etc...
 
aussiethunda said:
That rule is only being tested in NAB Cup and no matter what happens it wont be implented in the 2012 AFL Season.
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the strong word is that it will almost certainly be a change for 2013.

if one were to measure the various leaps from ruckmen, mcevoy would probably be classed as requires a run-up rather than having a vertical spring. in that sense i suspect that the fact any contact impeding his run will be removed should technically allow him to get closer to the ball (on average) than what he presumably does at present.

make any sense?

while your natanui can still run-up and take a vertical spring he has to land somewhere. your sandilands is not allowed to stand and lock horns. your mumford who is quite possibly the dirtiest ruck in the game has to cut out all the crap and jolly, well jolly is a spent cartridge everyone knows his knee is done.

the new rule is just designed to help the younger rucks not do a max bailey i believe.
 
Mortibacio said:
No point in people saying he isnt a #1 ruckman, he is our # 1 ruckman.
He was far from crap last year and will only improve this year.
Unless somewhere in the off season we recruited a better ruckman I missed you may as well suck it up princesses....
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squizz is pretty keen on archer who it must be said has a reasonable and hopefully improving vertical spring, can take a knock and is potentially dumb enough to be a pretty good #2.

we shall see.
 
SamFisher25 said:
squizz is pretty keen on archer
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Not as a ruckman unfortuntely (although it looks like he'll do more than his fair share in the VFL this year if Rhys is in the AFL team).
 
Squizzy1970 said:
Not as a ruckman unfortuntely (although it looks like he'll do more than his fair share in the VFL this year if Rhys is in the AFL team).
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Dont worry i have confidence Rhys will be doing majority of ruck-work :eek::D:p
 

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I think McEvoy's emergence last year was fantastic for the Saints. His around the ground work and marking was superb. His tap work was well behind that - which these stats show - and indicate right now he's not the be all and end all of ruckmen. But he's got plenty of time to improve. I think he needs solid support in there, too, from a second legitimate ruckman, rather than a fill-in, so that if McEvoy is getting beaten comprehensively there's a plan B. Ruckmen around the league appear to be getting bigger and meaner, so it's not going to get easier.
 
Faz 2000 said:
I think McEvoy's emergence last year was fantastic for the Saints. His around the ground work and marking was superb. His tap work was well behind that - which these stats show - and indicate right now he's not the be all and end all of ruckmen. But he's got plenty of time to improve. I think he needs solid support in there, too, from a second legitimate ruckman, rather than a fill-in, so that if McEvoy is getting beaten comprehensively there's a plan B. Ruckmen around the league appear to be getting bigger and meaner, so it's not going to get easier.
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went pretty good against your mob of blowhards last time i checked
 
Get off his back for goodnes sake. Anyone that really follows footy will know that a ruckman doesnt come into their own until they reach the mid to late 20's. Big Ben is only 22 and still has a lot to learn about the game only have played about 40 games. Lets see how much he improves again this year as he has shown improvement each year he has played. Dont expect him to be a Dean Cox or Sandi at his age with such little game experience.
 
My personal opinion is that is the Ruckman is good enough to contest the ruck, ie not make it incredibly easy for his opponent, thats OK.
If they get smashed in the middle, so the opponent can do what he pleases, then that is really really bad.
I think McEvoy last year was in the former category most of the time.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
My personal opinion is that is the Ruckman is good enough to contest the ruck, ie not make it incredibly easy for his opponent, thats OK.
If they get smashed in the middle, so the opponent can do what he pleases, then that is really really bad.
I think McEvoy last year was in the former category most of the time.
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exactly.

people place way too much importance on ruckwork IMHO.
as long as a ruck A. gets to the bounce B. jumps and C. gets a few to his own men the rest is seemingly of very little significance to his overall role.

the new rule will assist his technique in coming years one feels. it'll allow him to jump more freely and get more taps in the long run and that's a good thing when you combine it with his work at ground level.
 

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Ruckman effectiveness stats - McEvoy very poor!

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