Ruckmen: are they overrated?

[Rotayjay]

The importance of having a decent, good or great ruck is controversial. Some maintain that 'silver service' from an elite or even a moderately competent ruckman is a vital part of a team's game, that in today's high-stoppage era it's as important as ever. Others say that ruckmen aren't actually all that important.

One of the sub-melts on the Adelaide board this week has been the fact that Sam Jacobs (who many Croweaters consider the team's most valuable player) had his colours lowered by a second-gamer. It was supposedly a major factor in that pathetic loss. A few short hours before the bounce of that match, many were writing off the Eagles after star big man Nic Naitanui did his ACL. The reasoning is that a thin midfield (i.e. not Hawthorn, GWS or Sydney-like) needs a great ruckman to give them first use otherwise it will struggle.

Every year, the AFL world sings the praises of the elite ruckmen. This year it's Max Gawn, last year it was Todd Goldstein, in 2014 it was Aaron Sandilands, in 2013 it was Will Minson, et cetera, et cetera. In 2013, Minson's team finished 15th. In 2015, Sandilands' team went out of finals in straight sets. Did North make the top 4 last year? No. What's happened to the Dees this year? Finished 11th.

The last time an All-Australian ruckman won a premiership was Dean Cox in 2006. Previously it was Shaun Rehn in 1998, Corey McKernan 1996 and Justin Madden in 1995. The premiership teams simply don't have All-Australian ruckmen in them anymore, it seems.

Elite rucks deserve lots of praise, but in my opinion, ruckman is a slightly overrated position in the modern game. What are your thoughts?

 

[mike123]

The last time an All-Australian ruckman won a premiership was Dean Cox in 2006

Jolly was in the squad in 2010 iirc

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Doesn't Hawthorn's three consecutive premierships shove the answer in your face?

All of their ruckmen are ordinary.

 

[adammania9]

Gary Ablett Jr won the Brownlow medal in 2013. Where did the Suns finish? 18th.

Are midfielders overrated?

 

[Rotayjay]

Doesn't Hawthorn's three consecutive premierships shove the answer in your face?

All of their ruckmen are ordinary.

That certainly lends weight to the 'overrated' side. Personally, I think the last decade has put it way beyond doubt that you can be a superb team without a top-tier or even a second-tier ruckman.

 

[Dignan]

As mentioned, the Hawks have had some pretty average rucks in their flag winning teams so it's obviously not crucial.

On the other hand though, there is a very noticeable difference when we have Sandilands playing as opposed to say Griffin or Clarke.

I think they are probably rated about where they should be. I'd definitely prefer to have a great one than not.

 

[Sprout]

Depends. Is winning clearances overrated?

Melbourne were ranked 17th for clearances in 2014. In 2016 that moved up to 4th, which happens to coincide with Gawn's first year as an elite ruckman. Viney and Tyson took forward steps but Gawn has been central to the improvement of the midfield and the ability to get the ball moving forward.

It's also very handy if they can mark. I've lost count of the amount of times Gawn saved our bacon with his contested marking this season. But it depends on whether you associate that with the role of an archetype ruckman.

 

[Wild Bill]

Good ruck and mids is a great combination. Giving the on ballers the opportunity for 1st use is an advantage.

 

[Gibbke]

Hope so. We've run out...

 

[FallingLiefs]

unless you have a top class one, yes they are overrated.

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

Not having a ruckman killed St kilda in 2004 and 2005.

 

[Underarm]

Yes, and No.

It depends on the set up. Hawthorn don't need it, Hale and Ceglar are servicable. But imagine Fremantle without Sandilands; West Coast without Naitinui and Cox; Sydney without Mumford.

Richmond were significantly better when we got Maric and lost Angus Graham. Melbourne are a much better side with Gawn playing well. Essendon tried the no Ruckman strategy before and its a horrible idea.

 

[swiftdog]

There was a noticeable difference for Collingwood from 09 to 10 once Jolly was recruited (Ball obviously helped as well). Even now, we seemed a much better team this year when Grundy played well. Hawthorn have shown that an elite ruckman isn't critical if the mids are strong enough but I think at least a "serviceable" ruckman is required.

 

[Rex_Banner]

Overall team performance isn't a great way to tell the worth of a position that is only involved in one facet of the game. You could have the best player in any position and it won't mean a thing if you aren't any good in the other ones.

 

[Xenthor]

Gawn maybe the only reason we made it close to finals, so no no overrated. The good ones are gold.

 

[rooboy29]

Reckon you could argue that if goldstein had another all australian year then the roos would have won a few more games! He was crucial in our rnd 1 win and again against melbourne! Gawn also nearly got the dees over the line

 

[ashep]

Watching the way the downgrade from Tippett to Sinclair/Nankervis, and subsequent upgrade to Naismith has affected our play over the course of a single season..... Hell no.

 

[EagleShore]

Basically, ruckmen contribute to the structure and assist the smaller blokes on the ground. So if the team has weak structures and a mass of average or poor players, they wouldn't be much help.

Their effectiveness is heavily contingent on the midfielders and forwards. If a good ruckman is achieving a high number of hitouts to advantage and the advantaged midfielder is a rubbish kick or the forward line is dysfunctional (Freo last year), then their level of importance to the team is not so great.

If the defence is rubbish, they can help a fair bit by gaining territory, thereby sparing the weak defence from the opposition's clean attacking ball.

If they take contested marks, they are more valuable to the team because contested marks win territory, possession and hence games, especially for teams with weaker crumbing players.

I reckon a good ruckman is therefore more important to the fortunes of middle of the table teams - teams who are average across the ground will get more chances in attack and fewer opposition attacks to counter in defence.

A crap team will still lose with a good ruckman, while a good team will still likely win despite having a poorer quality ruckman.

This is why ruckmen need to take marks and kick goals to be considered as a valuable player, especially in teams such as West Coast who regularly play two of them.

Edit: To answer the OP, yes some ruckmen are overrated while others are underrated. Their role is important generally, but perhaps a good ruckman is more likely to be of significant value to middle of the road teams, or to teams that are otherwise quite even with their opponent in any one game (ie. they can be the tipping point in a game played between closely matched sides).

 

[Damon_3388]

I think to properly assess the importance of ruckmen, we need to remind ourselves of what their main purpose and role is, as I think this has become distorted over time. For the most part, it's a very selfless, unsexy, team-oriented role, but is vital for the effective function of the midfield and, by extension, the whole team.

The thing that is overrated by some observers is the importance of disposals and marks from a ruckman, especially when you consider most ruckmen are pretty average users of the footy, and that raw marking numbers are as much situational as skill-based these days. Sure, getting a few extra touches or taking a couple of extra marks might be a bit of a point of difference for a ruckman, but it doesn't necessarily make them any better at their primary responsibility and role in ruck and stoppage stuations. You would want the ball in the hands of your better ball users around the ground, and you would like to trust your forwards and backs to play their role by marking or spoiling in their area of the ground, too.

In terms of statistics, hitouts, hitouts to advantage (numbers need to be made more readily available), clearances, tackles and one percenters are the primary areas of importance for a ruckman. These numbers will indicate if they are doing what they're there to do - use their superior size and physicality to win the tap or the clearances, or clear space for their midfielders to win and move the ball forward, or to stop clean movement of the ball by the opposition.

Secondary to this would be inside 50s and goals, to indicate if the ruckman is also moving the ball forward themselves, or directly contributing on the scoreboard. These do not override the importance of the primary indicators, however, as they should be the main numbers a ruckman is judged on.

 

[Long Live HFC]

overrated until you don't have one.

 

[Hobbes]

Gary Ablett Jr won the Brownlow medal in 2013. Where did the Suns finish? 18th.

Are midfielders overrated?

14th.

 

[Big_Birdy]

Surprised a Crow supporter has posted this thread so soon after Friday night.

 

[MarkT2]

Ordinary ruckmen are over rated. Good ruckmen are not.

The impact of a quality solo quality player in any position is over rated. North should have won 4 flags if Carey was one of the best ever. Geelong should have won a few with Ablett. Plugger and Skilton are among a large cast of great players that never won a flag. Hawks lost with Buddy and the won 3 without him. Teams win flags. Good players make teams better but alone they can't have huge impact.

Collingwood 2010 v 2009 was in part due to the difference Jolly made over Fraser but even then it took other personal changes to push Collingwood ahead enough to win a flag. I would rather have 2010 Collingwood with Jolly and minus 1 quality mid than minus Jolly.

 

[MarkT2]

overrated until you don't have one.

Or spend a decade with an ordinary, injured one like Collingwood under Malthouse who didn't rate a quality ruckman as much as a quality athletic 2m tall midfield.

 

[Wild Bill]

Gawn maybe the only reason we made it close to finals, so no no overrated. The good ones are gold.

He was huge this year and killed Goldy in the hit outs. The reason why we were able to beat you by less than a goal was that Goldy pushed forwarded and kicked 5.

Gawn got you close - Goldy got us over the line. It was a cracking contest.