Ruckmen: are they overrated?

[MWPP]

They are no more or less important than any other position
However teams vary in their spread of elite players
An elite ruckman can compensate for a less than elite midfield
And vice versa
To answer the question - no they aren't overrated

 

[Wild Bill]

I think we saw different games. Grundy was meant to destroy us because we had a guy in his 1st game and a guy in his 3rd game. Yet Pittonet was good in the ruck, and Fitzpatrick was fantastic around the ground.

Hawks have never won a flag with anything close to the best ruckman in the comp. In fact the only time we had a highly rated ruckman was during our terrible years in the late 90s / early 00s.

We are talking about one of the all time great sides. That well drill and disciplined 1st use is not critical to helping you win. The way you move the ball from the backline it doesn't matter if you lose the clearances.

A great ruckman can really help elevate an average or middle of the road team.

Great teams can be great without one.

 

[HairyO]

We are talking about one of the all time great sides. That well drill and disciplined 1st use is not critical to helping you win. The way you move the ball from the backline it doesn't matter if you lose the clearances.

A great ruckman can really help elevate an average or middle of the road team.

Great teams can be great without one.

True. Like inside mid stat accumulators. Sometimes they are good. Sometimes they dont improve things much.

But for 50 years Hawthorn has been winning flags without top ruckmen. So I'd say the argument is pretty strong that they arent that necessary. If anything, spending $1m a year on a ruckman hurts a team, because that is a huge amount of the cap on one player.

 

[Mateyman]

I think we saw different games. Grundy was meant to destroy us because we had a guy in his 1st game and a guy in his 3rd game. Yet Pittonet was good in the ruck, and Fitzpatrick was fantastic around the ground.

Hawks have never won a flag with anything close to the best ruckman in the comp. In fact the only time we had a highly rated ruckman was during our terrible years in the late 90s / early 00s.

Personally I watched the game where Grundy singlehandedly won more hitouts than both Hawthorn ruckmen, with more to advantage, while getting more disposals than both of them combined as well. Fitzpatrick has also played about 20 games.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Tap outs by ruckman are a useless stat, tap outs to advantage are all that matters. to many people get excited by useless stats in the modern game.
The great ruckman like Simon Madden, Dean Cox are a midfield extension, they link the play around the ground, they run deep in defense and take game saving marks, they go forward and hit the scoreboard. They are rare beasts and worth their weight in Gold. if you have one of them they should be your highest paid asset.
Gawn is the only ruck in the current comp that goes close to doing these things but he still falls well short as a link up player and has to do it over many years yet.
If you get a great one think yourself very lucky, I have seen just a handfull in 40 years.

 

[MarkT2]

Buddy won a flag with the Hawks in 2013. They won 2 without him.

Fair enough.

 

[And_ROOS]

Not having a ruckman killed St kilda in 2004 and 2005.

And Ottens was a massive part of Geelong's success in 2007-11.
Just watch matches like the 2011 QF against Hawthorn where Otten's lifted his game for around 20 minutes to dominate the hit outs that gave Geelong easier clearances and chances at goal. Match was really close until he blew it open.

Without Ottens, and relying on King, Blake and West to try and carry us to flags we probably only win 1 of 3. Maybe.

 

[Sando22]

Depends how good their beard is I guess.

 

[Shaneprice97]

My way of looking at it, the teams with a better ruckman design a gameplan to bring that ruckman more into the game, like say push him forward of the ball to kick goals ir push him back to take intercept marks, where as the teams with a worse ruck make them to the bear minimum and pray there players around the ball make up for it.

 

[coerced]

Hawks have never won a flag with anything close to the best ruckman in the comp. In fact the only time we had a highly rated ruckman was during our terrible years in the late 90s / early 00s.

That doesn't mean ruckmen aren't important. Aside from Buddy few Hawks player have been regarded as the best in the comp in their position. Mitchell has had a champion career, but there's always been at least 2-3 midfielders regarded better than him. Roughead's a champ but long played in Buddy's shadow. The only player in all four premierships that is just about regarded as clear best in his position is Cyril.

Hawthorn emphasis above all else that it is a team game.

 

[HairyO]

Personally I watched the game where Grundy singlehandedly won more hitouts than both Hawthorn ruckmen, with more to advantage, while getting more disposals than both of them combined as well. Fitzpatrick has also played about 20 games.

Won a couple more hitouts, a couple more possessions, less goals, less marks, less lots of things.

As I said rather clearly in my post, the talk was that Grundy was going to destroy our inexperienced and weak ruckmen. That didnt happen. He won a few stats, lost a few stats.

 

[gbatman]

Ruckmen are useful if they can do other stuff well like get the ball and/or kick goals but not too many can do this. Teams have never really put their success down to their ruckman being anything more than a solid role player in a team. If you have a ruckman who can win plenty of hitouts and isn't a complete mug when it comes to his turn to compete then that's all you need to win a premiership. You'd notice it if you had a ruckman who got dominated in the ruck but really they are a dime a dozen and can easily be recruited/traded for with late picks or in the rookie draft. Cox was probably the last ruckman who was also a good footballer to be in a really successful side. David Hale was also a pretty good footballer I suppose, many of them are just suburban quality footballers who happen to be tall and can jump. I look at this year's top 4 and again, the ruckmen in those sides are competitive but if they couldn't ruck they wouldn't be anywhere near this level of football. Players who can go forward and kick a couple of goals and go into the ruck and be competitive are valuable but they are very rarely the team's first ruck.

 

[Davo23]

Doesn't Hawthorn's three consecutive premierships shove the answer in your face?

All of their ruckmen are ordinary.

People see a slick hitout and or a spectacular mark, and immediately think a ruckman is killing it,

What you want a strong-bodied ruckman who works really hard, competes and just never gives up on a contest.
That's what wins finals.

 

[Boxhead_31]

None of the Hawks era's had one, in fact it has been the only notable flaws on lists in the 70's, 80's and now. I've always thought an Adam Goodes prototype ruckman would be the best fit in the modern game.

Seriously selling Don Scott and Greg and Paul Dear short

 

[RUNVS]

Very noticable difference when Naismith came into the side at the Swans instead of Sinclair.

 

[Mateyman]

Won a couple more hitouts, a couple more possessions, less goals, less marks, less lots of things.

As I said rather clearly in my post, the talk was that Grundy was going to destroy our inexperienced and weak ruckmen. That didnt happen. He won a few stats, lost a few stats.

Yeah but like, he's one player, and they are two players...
It's like playing 2 taggers on one player and then being impressed that the 2 can break even with the 1

 

[HairyO]

Yeah but like, he's one player, and they are two players...
It's like playing 2 taggers on one player and then being impressed that the 2 can break even with the 1

They both contested the rucks at the same time? Cool new twist on how to win the centre square.

 

[Gysberts2Bate]

Gawn made the youngest midfield in the competition competitive this year.

 

[Mateyman]

They both contested the rucks at the same time? Cool new twist on how to win the centre square.

Nope. But they both ran around the ground picking up possessions I am guessing? Hence the relevance of that stats other than the hitouts, where Grundy got more possessions than them both combined, which was my point. Shaun Hampson can win hitouts, but doesn't get many games for some reason...

 

[ozzyoslo]

Doesn't Hawthorn's three consecutive premierships shove the answer in your face?

All of their ruckmen are ordinary.

Ive been getting smashed from pillar to post over Goldstein.....am not a fan. If you have quality midfielders spiking the opposite ruck mans efforts then what's the point paying a large % of your scary cap on a AA quality ruck man.

 

[ozzyoslo]

A top ruckman who can take marks around the ground and kick goals like Gawn or Goldstein are worth their weight in gold.
particularly when there are very few of them. It can give a team an edge.

Goldstein double his marking output per game last year and got the nod for AA.........he doesn't do it all the time, the stats prove this.

 

[Farm Boy]

In football we win games by kicking goals. The aim of the game is the kick goals. The most effective goal scoring play (other than a ruck man simply grabbing the football out of the centre and kicking it through the middle) is for a ruck man to tap it to a midfielder, who will carry the ball 10-15 metres or so, and slot one through the middle. This makes the ruck man not only important - but absolutely necessary (as without him you don't win the tap, you can't immediately push forward). Winning the ruck tap is like getting the first punch in (in a fight) - it sets up the rest of your attack. You get to see (and exploit) the oppositions weaknesses before he gets to see yours. It is better to be pushing forward and attacking - than be on the back foot and posturing.

 

[00Stinger]

Top line ruckman can be the most important players in a team.
Look at clearly the top three ruckmen (Gawn, Goldstein & Natanui). They all make solid midfields look great and if they are out of the team those clubs all struggle.

The rest of the rucks in the league are pretty meh to be honost

Hope so. We've run out...

That's ok, you can get by without a ruckman when you have about 10 a grade midfielders

 

[PhatBoy]

Having a great ruckman is nice (if memory serves anyway, been 6 years since we've had a truly elite one) but it is the position which can most easily be covered up by serviceable back up or quality midfielders around the ball ups and bounces.

If you don't have a key forward it completely limits your options, if you don't have a gun key defender you'll get smashed by the power forwards. If you don't have good half backs your attack has no build up from the back half, if you don't have good mids you can't get the ball forward, and if you don't have good smaller forwards you are relying exclusively on marks from your talls or midfielders kicking running goals.

If you don't have a gun ruckman, you can still win with 3rd man up options, serviceable ruckmen who simply provide a good contest, and midfielders who can shark the ball.

 

[Gibbke]

That's ok, you can get by without a ruckman when you have about 10 a grade midfielders

Wouldn't mind a bit of that, either...

Come on, draft, free agency and destination club mentality...team up and do your stuff...