Ryan O'Keefe - Underated

[SouthSwans]

Yeah thats fair enough I'm definatley not suggesting he is in the AFL's elite 5 or 10 but hes certainly in the next teir down.

Looking at what you said about the players I'd say that most teams would care about C.Bolton and AA player in great form again this year other than that just about spot on. Which tells that our three most consistant players are Kirk, C.Bolton & R.O'Keefe and our three most damaging are Hall, Goodes & R.O'Keefe and the three most difficult to shut down would be Kirk, Kennelly & R.O'Keefe.

Yep. That's 100% what Faz and I are getting at. Is in the top 15-25 players in the comp and IS recognised from what I always hear from both our club and opposition supporters.

 

[rancidpants13]

Yep. That's 100% what Faz and I are getting at. Is in the top 15-25 players in the comp and IS recognised from what I always hear from both our club and opposition supporters.

and i'm saying he should be in the elite
okay, so he's recognised by the wider AFL community as being in the top 25, or whatever
i'm saying, if you go on his consistency at the top level for several season now, he's surely in the elite
how many games has he missed compared with, say, judd or brown?
how many ordinary games has he played? we all now judd, brown, fevola, et al have played several bad ones...whether it be due to injury or simply being outdone by the blokes playing on them
but ROK is almost never outplayed or shut down
yes, he's going through some goal-kicking woes this season, fortunately they're not hurting the team and he'll rectify that, i'm sure
but i am still yet to hear an argument as to WHY he's not in the top 10 players in the league, at least
i mean, what about examples such as brad johnson or shaun burgoyne or brent harvey
not one of those players is as versatile or as consistent as ROK, yet all are rated in various quarters as "elite" players

 

[SouthSwans]

Ok ok hold up, you reckon ROK can/has/does have as much influence on a game as Brown or Judd!? ROK is one of my favourites and probably the equal best player (Kirk, Goodes) at the Swans, but he's not a game breaker. Judd and Brown are the Leigh Matthews and Wayne Carey's of the modern era, you cant say that ROK has that sort of influence on a contest.

 

[rancidpants13]

Ok ok hold up, you reckon ROK can/has/does have as much influence on a game as Brown or Judd!? ROK is one of my favourites and probably the equal best player (Kirk, Goodes) at the Swans, but he's not a game breaker. Judd and Brown are the Leigh Matthews and Wayne Carey's of the modern era, you cant say that ROK has that sort of influence on a contest.

why can't i?
the main reason ROK is not seen as having the same influence as judd or brown is that he plays for the swans, a team noted for stressing team rather than individual
i'll go back to my original point: if he played for a big Vic club, he would be acclaimed as an elite
a superstar
good grief, can you imagine how much influence he would be EXPECTED to have on a game if he played at carlton, richmond, melbourne, etc
i'll offer another example
victorians still seem to rate richmond's nathan brown as a superstar
if ROK's not a fair way better than nathan brown, i'll switch off BF now and never return

 

[sdsdsdsd]

At the moment nbrown is playing on his name from 04-05. He was a good player then and hopefully he can return to that form. Ive always thought ROK is very underated and one of, if not ur best player. He was penciled into my sc this year until i swapped him for bj, wat a decision that turned out to be

 

[SouthSwans]

why can't i?
the main reason ROK is not seen as having the same influence as judd or brown is that he plays for the swans, a team noted for stressing team rather than individual
i'll go back to my original point: if he played for a big Vic club, he would be acclaimed as an elite
a superstar
good grief, can you imagine how much influence he would be EXPECTED to have on a game if he played at carlton, richmond, melbourne, etc
i'll offer another example
victorians still seem to rate richmond's nathan brown as a superstar
if ROK's not a fair way better than nathan brown, i'll switch off BF now and never return

Def agree ROK >>> Nathan Brown, but I - an extremely biased Swan's fan - couldn't contemplate how ROK = J Brown, Judd.

He would make my 15 but IMO is no way near J Brown or Judd. They are freaks.

 

[rancidpants13]

Def agree ROK >>> Nathan Brown, but I - an extremely biased Swan's fan - couldn't contemplate how ROK = J Brown, Judd.

He would make my 15 but IMO is no way near J Brown or Judd. They are freaks.

look, i ackowledge your points, and i tip my hat to a fellow swans fan, obviously
but i'm not done with this yet
judd WAS a freak for a couple of seasons, but i was actually watching bits of the 05 grand final again today and was reminded, AGAIN, how ordinary his disposal by foot was when he was put under pressure (and i think one of the tackles that sent one of his kicks off nowhere was by ROK)
and i'll just get in again how he should NEVER have won the norm smith (either amon or LRT or fossie)
but judd is still not the same (yet) as he was from 04-06, and while we all know how good he was then, o'keefe has improved every season since he started, and how many's that now? 8? 9?
brown is a giant of the game BUT he can be stopped (usually by craig bolton and co), and he is still a bit prone to injury
i am NOT saying ROK is a better player than either of them when they're all at best (although as i said, ROK is actually still getting better) but in terms of ongoing influence, ROK deserves to be rated WITH the elite players of the game at the moment
put it another way: if you remove j brown and judd from the question, how does ROK stand with the other current "elite" players?
victorians, specially cats fans, would be wanting blood for me saying it, but ROK is a better all-round player than gary ablett jr as far as i'm concerned
has just as big a motor, probly bigger, can play midfield if required, but can also play tall and be a marking option
he lacks the explosive pace off the mark of an ablett or judd, but i'd be willing to bet he'd run them down if he had 20-30m or so to chase them
i'm actually quite content being argued down on this one, but it just hit me these past coupla weeks how damn good ROK is, and how he maintains that standard year after year
when was the last time he was comprehensively beaten by an individual opponent?

 

[Hot off the press]

i dont think he's underrated at all :S

i live in melbourne and i think he gets credit for all he does, both by official footy men and the general public. im on the same page as a few others in this topic page that hes in the top 20 to 30 odd players in the comp but not in that top 5 bracket.

 

[Faz 2000]

Good conversation about a fantastic player. And kudos to all for not falling into name-calling and personal insults.

My take is that ROK is in the best ~4 players at Sydney, and that puts him in the best ~4 at any club.

I think what's in his favour when talking about whether he's "elite" is his consistency. He is all but IMPOSSIBLE to keep out of the game. Because if he's playing forward and not getting much ball... he simply runs and runs and gets involved up the ground. You can't STOP him, IMO, you can only limit his impact.

However, this is also probably what keeps him, for me, out of the very elite of the AFL. He doesn't win many games off his own boot (like a J Brown), nor grab quarters by the scruff quite like a Judd can (and yes, I know he is only 80% right now and NOT that guy). I think he should kick more goals, like a Brad Johnson of a few years ago. Smilin' Brad now plays as a permanent forward, so that's no longer a like-for-like comparison, but it was only a few years ago the BJ could get 25 touches AND 4 goals in a big day out. That's, for me, the only thing missing from ROK's game.

An out and out gun, no doubt, though.

 

[rancidpants13]

Good conversation about a fantastic player. And kudos to all for not falling into name-calling and personal insults.

My take is that ROK is in the best ~4 players at Sydney, and that puts him in the best ~4 at any club.

I think what's in his favour when talking about whether he's "elite" is his consistency. He is all but IMPOSSIBLE to keep out of the game. Because if he's playing forward and not getting much ball... he simply runs and runs and gets involved up the ground. You can't STOP him, IMO, you can only limit his impact.

However, this is also probably what keeps him, for me, out of the very elite of the AFL. He doesn't win many games off his own boot (like a J Brown), nor grab quarters by the scruff quite like a Judd can (and yes, I know he is only 80% right now and NOT that guy). I think he should kick more goals, like a Brad Johnson of a few years ago. Smilin' Brad now plays as a permanent forward, so that's no longer a like-for-like comparison, but it was only a few years ago the BJ could get 25 touches AND 4 goals in a big day out. That's, for me, the only thing missing from ROK's game.

An out and out gun, no doubt, though.

appreciate your comments
my immediate response to that is that because of sydney's style, there's never been a need for ROK to be the type of player that HAS to win the game off his own boot, but certainly he's taken games "by the scruff of the neck", but not by moments of magic, more, as you say, by sheer consistency and volume of work
his stamina is almost unmatched, surely, in this era of constant midfield rotations
i spose it still surprises me, even after he's performed better every year for 9 or 10 seasons, that he never seems to be included on top-10 lists, especially when i see names such as luke hodge, et al up there

 

[The natural]

appreciate your comments
my immediate response to that is that because of sydney's style, there's never been a need for ROK to be the type of player that HAS to win the game off his own boot, but certainly he's taken games "by the scruff of the neck", but not by moments of magic, more, as you say, by sheer consistency and volume of work
his stamina is almost unmatched, surely, in this era of constant midfield rotations
i spose it still surprises me, even after he's performed better every year for 9 or 10 seasons, that he never seems to be included on top-10 lists, especially when i see names such as luke hodge, et al up there

Convinced after yesterday he doesnt get reward for his efforts by letting himself down in front of goal time and time again.It hurts the side when your best marking forward continually misses regulation shots at goal.So he can cover more territory than Burke and Wills and continue to take his contested marks but until he starts hurting the opposition and starts winning games off his own boot he will never be in the elite catergory.

 

[footyfan_25]

Sure ROK racks up plently of the ball but his effectiveness is terrible. Most weeks will only be between 50-60%.

On the weekend his disposal was only at 34% effectiveness.

I noticed this last year when he was in my supercoach team and have kept an eye on it this year.

Any reason for this?

ps: not a supercoach question, just a question as to why his effectveness is so poor.

 

[footyfan_25]

Sure ROK racks up plently of the ball but his effectiveness is terrible. Most weeks will only be between 50-60%.

On the weekend his disposal was only at 34% effectiveness.

I noticed this last year when he was in my supercoach team and have kept an eye on it this year.

Any reason for this?

ps: not a supercoach question, just a question as to why his effectveness is so poor.

There was a thread last week about Ryan O'Keefe being underrated in Melbourne & much debate as to his status as a star player. I cant seen to find it, so bought this one up instead.

I mentioned in that thread as well as in this one back in April that ROK will not be a star player until his disposal improves.

Today he again racked up 28 disposals, but at only 50% effectiveness

I dont see enough of Sydney play, but why is it that his disposal is so ordinary

 

[MF]

but certainly he's taken games "by the scruff of the neck", but not by moments of magic, more, as you say, by sheer consistency and volume of work
his stamina is almost unmatched, surely, in this era of constant midfield rotations

05 Prelim against the saints is probably the best example of this. His second half of that game was amazing.

"How can this man be on his own!!"

 

[liz]

Today he again racked up 28 disposals, but at only 50% effectiveness

I dont see enough of Sydney play, but why is it that his disposal is so ordinary

Depends on how you measure effectiveness. The way the AFL stats work, a short sideways or backwards pass from midfield that goes to an unmarked team mate is deemed effective. A player who takes a contested mark, plays on to try and get the play moving, delivers it long to a contest in front of goal where it isn't marked by a team mate will be deemed to have had an ineffective kick, even if the resulting play results in a scoring chance.

I know which I'd rather see players do.

 

[OperationGetCats]

Depends on how you measure effectiveness. The way the AFL stats work, a short sideways or backwards pass from midfield that goes to an unmarked team mate is deemed effective. A player who takes a contested mark, plays on to try and get the play moving, delivers it long to a contest in front of goal where it isn't marked by a team mate will be deemed to have had an ineffective kick, even if the resulting play results in a scoring chance.

I know which I'd rather see players do.

This is not correct... if you go by Champion Data (SuperCoach) statistics. A player who take a contested mark, plays on and bombs one 50+ meters inside 50 will get approx 10SC points. If the kick is marked and the player goals he will get approx 18 points. He gets points for the following... contested mark, inside 50, goal assist, distance on kick. A player who takes an uncontested mark and kicks in the backline will get approx 6 points.

 

[OperationGetCats]

SC points are a remarkably accurate reflection of how a player has played throughout the day. The only time it is hard to be accurate is if the last 10 mins is a no contest (commonly referred to as junk time).

 

[liz]

This is not correct... if you go by Champion Data (SuperCoach) statistics. A player who take a contested mark, plays on and bombs one 50+ meters inside 50 will get approx 10SC points. If the kick is marked and the player goals he will get approx 18 points. He gets points for the following... contested mark, inside 50, goal assist, distance on kick. A player who takes an uncontested mark and kicks in the backline will get approx 6 points.

Are those the same, though, as the effectiveness % posted in the Record each week? There are various different sources of stats around nowadays and they all seem to work off different bases.

My eyes tell me that O'Keefe has been a highly effective player this year, not only because he's getting a huge amount of the ball, not only because he's winning contested as well as uncontested ball, but because he almost always tries to move it on quickly and only occasionally kicks it for the opposition to take an uncontested mark. His kicking at goal obviously lets him down a bit (and won't be helping those simplistic effectiveness stats).