Should Katich have been picked?

[Gunnar Longshanks]

We need batsmen for the future - Katich is not the answer.

Oh, wow - why didn't we just fast-track Phillip Hughes, then?

Get a grip.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Katich has been out of the side for quite a while.

Lehmann was not picked (before his eventual recall at 33) after several record-breaking seasons.

My point was whether a record-breaking season really means that much, and, given the age of our side, whether it wouldn't have been better to blood a younger or more game-turning batsman (ie Hussey).

Lehmann was overlooked for a long time, and that's bad luck for Lehmann. But that was the result of having the Waugh twins as fixtures in the middle order. How many "record-breaking seasons" did he actually have?

This whole Lehmann vs Katich comparison is pretty erroneous. Selection depends entirely on opportunity. It's not just about how many runs a player scores. It's about the form of the players ahead of him as well. Different situations will produce different outcomes for different players. You can't just compare Katich's record with Lehmann's record and say, "Well, why didn't Lehmann get recalled the way Katich has been?"

It's a three-Test series and Katich probably won't even play, so let's not get too wound up about it. He and Dave Hussey were the only legitimate contenders for the reserve spot and Katich's superior domestic season got him the nod. It's that simple.

You talk about blooding a young bat, but there aren't any who really demanded a look. Pomersbach will be at the top of most lists, but he's had one good season. That's not enough.

 

[Romeo]

Very well put Gunnar.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Lehmann was overlooked for a long time, and that's bad luck for Lehmann. But that was the result of having the Waugh twins as fixtures in the middle order. How many "record-breaking seasons" did he actually have?

This whole Lehmann vs Katich comparison is pretty erroneous. Selection depends entirely on opportunity. It's not just about how many runs a player scores. It's about the form of the players ahead of him as well. Different situations will produce different outcomes for different players. You can't just compare Katich's record with Lehmann's record and say, "Well, why didn't Lehmann get recalled the way Katich has been?"

It's a three-Test series and Katich probably won't even play, so let's not get too wound up about it. He and Dave Hussey were the only legitimate contenders for the reserve spot and Katich's superior domestic season got him the nod. It's that simple.

You talk about blooding a young bat, but there aren't any who really demanded a look. Pomersbach will be at the top of most lists, but he's had one good season. That's not enough.

Very well put Mr Longshanks,

Batsmen have to earn selection, other countries such as England were notorious for handing our selections to guys that weren't deserving and as such they dug a bigger hole by having an absurd amount of people passing into and out of the team.

Clarke is there fore the next 10 years, Punter has 3 - 4 years left, Jacques is there for the long haul, Haddin is there for 3 - 4 years, as is Hussey and Symonds, the batting is very solid on paper, if one of those rolls his ankle or tears a hammy then Katich can fill the breach, there is no point taking a youngster that doesn't merit selection just for the sake of it especially as they probably wont get a game at all.

 

[hujsh]

Clarke is there fore the next 10 years, Punter has 3 - 4 years left, Jacques is there for the long haul, Haddin is there for 3 - 4 years, as is Hussey and Symonds, the batting is very solid on paper, if one of those rolls his ankle or tears a hammy then Katich can fill the breach, there is no point taking a youngster that doesn't merit selection just for the sake of it especially as they probably wont get a game at all.

So give Katich another cap? For what reason? Surely in the long term someone else would be better off getting a debut.

What about White 748 at 49.86 or Pomersbach 743 at 61.91.

If the batting is solid and we're playing the West Indies then this is the perfect opportunity to give someone a taste to show them the level required at Test level.

I bet Jaques taking Langers spot against the Proteas helped him.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

So give Katich another cap? For what reason? Surely in the long term someone else would be better off getting a debut.

Firstly, Katich probably won't even play.

Secondly, if someone does get injured, Katich is the form batsman in the country, and he is best-equipped to step into the side and contribute.

People bang on about the long-term, but our #1 priority is to pick the best side for the next series. That includes picking Katich, the form batsman of the summer, as the reserve.

What about White 748 at 49.86 or Pomersbach 743 at 61.91.

What about them?

Katich's output smashes those guys'.

Pomersbach has had one good season. You need more than that to force your way into a Test squad. Especially when there are more accomplished bats in irresistible form.

White isn't even on the radar.

If the batting is solid and we're playing the West Indies then this is the perfect opportunity to give someone a taste to show them the level required at Test level.

What are you talking about?

I repeat, we should be picking our best squad. That includes Katich as the reserve.

What is this about "giving people a taste"?

If the Test side is now a development squad, we may as well start picking Philip Hughes just to "give him a taste".

Maybe we should have named Moises Henriques as well.

I bet Jaques taking Langers spot against the Proteas helped him.

Er, yeah - it probably did.

But Jaques was also the form domestic batsman at the time and totally deserved that selection.

Just like Katich totally deserves to be included as the reserve against the West Indies.

I honestly don't see how people can take umbridge at Katich's inclusion. The suggestion that Pomersbach or White should have been preferred is ridiculous.

 

[hujsh]

Firstly, Katich probably won't even play.

Secondly, if someone does get injured, Katich is the form batsman in the country, and he is best-equipped to step into the side and contribute.

People bang on about the long-term, but our #1 priority is to pick the best side for the next series. That includes picking Katich, the form batsman of the summer, as the reserve.

What about them?

Katich's output smashes those guys'.

Pomersbach has had one good season. You need more than that to force your way into a Test squad. Especially when there are more accomplished bats in irresistible form.

White isn't even on the radar.

What are you talking about?

I repeat, we should be picking our best squad. That includes Katich as the reserve.

What is this about "giving people a taste"?

If the Test side is now a development squad, we may as well start picking Philip Hughes just to "give him a taste".

Maybe we should have named Moises Henriques as well.

Er, yeah - it probably did.

But Jaques was also the form domestic batsman at the time and totally deserved that selection.

Just like Katich totally deserves to be included as the reserve against the West Indies.

I honestly don't see how people can take umbridge at Katich's inclusion. The suggestion that Pomersbach or White should have been preferred is ridiculous.

What I'm talking about is that if we have a solid batting team then we shouldn't need 33 year olds as backups against a weak squad.

Does nothing for the team if we play Katich. He plays potentially 1-3 matches then goes off to never be seen again. I'd rather see a 23-25 year old who may not be as good yet but could be better than Katich at test level when we are playing the WEST INDIES.

So what if he has done well. We could almost not play a 6th batsman against this side so lets do something useful and give young batsman who performed very well this season a shot. There is more upside to these 2 playing a test.

We didn't pick Bevan when he had a record breaking Summer and we shouldn't have picked Katich

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

What I'm talking about is that if we have a solid batting team then we shouldn't need 33 year olds as backups against a weak squad.

It's not about what we need or don't need.

It's about picking our best squad.

Our best squad includes Katich as the reserve. Period.

Does nothing for the team if we play Katich. He plays potentially 1-3 matches then goes off to never be seen again.

It means we have the best available squad.

Believe it or not, but that's actually the #1 priority. You seem to have lost sight of that in your determination to blood a young player for the sake of blooding a young player.

So what if he has done well. We could almost not play a 6th batsman against this side so lets do something useful and give young batsman who performed very well this season a shot.

It's not meant to be easy to get into the Australian side.

How many top-notch innings did Pomersbach and White actually play this season? Do you really think that 5-6 good knocks should be enough to catapult a kid into the Test side?

You might want to see a new face for the sake of novelty, but it is a far better policy to reward consistency.

If White and Pomersbach can keep scoring runs, they'll get their chance. Making them wait isn't going to damage them. They're not going to forget how to bat if we don't pick them just yet.

People like you would have been falling over themselves to hand Cosgrove a baggy green a few years back. Good thing we waited for him to back up his one good season, isn't it?

We didn't pick Bevan when he had a record breaking Summer and we shouldn't have picked Katich

The fact we didn't recall Bevan does not mean we shouldn't recall Katich. I don't know where this half-baked precedent crap comes from.

Bevan was overlooked because there were better candidates in front of him. That is not true of Katich.

Our best squad includes Katich as the reserve. That's all that matters.

All this other stuff about taking a punt on a kid is puffery. Katich deserves his recall and he is part of our best squad. That completely overshadows any arguments for picking a kid who's had one good season.

 

[linda]

Im really surprised he got the call up .Surely Aus have an older batsman than Katich hes only 32.

And you called us Dads Army


Whenever I saw him play for Derbyshire he was a top player

 

[Mr Unrealistic]

I would rather have my toenails pulled out with a pair of pliers than watch katich bat

 

[PHX]

Yes he should have been.

Cant deny it.

 

[achancely]

I repeat, we should be picking our best squad. That includes Katich as the reserve.

What is this about "giving people a taste"?

This is bad logic in our current state.

Part of being a selector is looking forward. We're at a tipping point right now - a wealth of retirements have weakened us considerably, fortunately not enough that we shouldn't still beat the Windies comfortably.

Katich offers nothing if he is going as the reserve batsman. We need to recognise we are looking towards regenerating the side, and given our relative strength against the West Indies it was the right time to pick a young batsman who we expect to be a future middle-order bat as the reserve batsman. Get them into the team environment.

Put them into the team after an injury, they may fail, they may (a la the desperately domestically average Michael Clarke before his debut) succeed fantastically. Either way we are good enough vis a vis the West Indies to afford that.

Picking the 'best available' squad is a short-sighted, dogmatic and poorly thought out logic given our current situation. Katich is not necessary, not needed and won't be there long-term. A younger player probably will.

Perfect time.

 

[hujsh]

It's not about what we need or don't need.

It's about picking our best squad.

Our best squad includes Katich as the reserve. Period.


It means we have the best available squad.

Believe it or not, but that's actually the #1 priority. You seem to have lost sight of that in your determination to blood a young player for the sake of blooding a young player.

It's not meant to be easy to get into the Australian side.

How many top-notch innings did Pomersbach and White actually play this season? Do you really think that 5-6 good knocks should be enough to catapult a kid into the Test side?

You might want to see a new face for the sake of novelty, but it is a far better policy to reward consistency.

If White and Pomersbach can keep scoring runs, they'll get their chance. Making them wait isn't going to damage them. They're not going to forget how to bat if we don't pick them just yet.

People like you would have been falling over themselves to hand Cosgrove a baggy green a few years back. Good thing we waited for him to back up his one good season, isn't it?

The fact we didn't recall Bevan does not mean we shouldn't recall Katich. I don't know where this half-baked precedent crap comes from.

Bevan was overlooked because there were better candidates in front of him. That is not true of Katich.

Our best squad includes Katich as the reserve. That's all that matters.

All this other stuff about taking a punt on a kid is puffery. Katich deserves his recall and he is part of our best squad. That completely overshadows any arguments for picking a kid who's had one good season.

Fine...when Hussey (32) Ponting (33) Symonds (32) Lee (31) and Clark (32) all retire in the space of 2 years or so we'll bring in dubutants.

Then It'll really look great that guys like Katich (32) were all getting spots against weak sides.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Picking the 'best available' squad is a short-sighted, dogmatic and poorly thought out logic given our current situation. Katich is not necessary, not needed and won't be there long-term. A younger player probably will.

Picking the best squad remains our #1 priority. I don't see how you can disagree with that.

If there was a young player really pushing for a spot, I'd be more amenable to squeezing him into the squad. But there simply aren't any young bats who have done enough to warrant selection. Pomersbach has had one good season - that just isn't enough. Who else?

Besides, we don't need to push a young bat into the mix right now. It makes complete sense to expect Pomersbach and whoever else to back up their break-out seasons before offering national honours.

We don't need to panic and start picking young guys before they're ready or before they're genuinely deserving.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Fine...when Hussey (32) Ponting (33) Symonds (32) Lee (31) and Clark (32) all retire in the space of 2 years or so we'll bring in dubutants.

Then It'll really look great that guys like Katich (32) were all getting spots against weak sides.

Well, Lee and Clark are bowlers, so they've got bugger-all to do with Katich.

That aside, there's no doubt that there will come a time when we have to replace ageing players.

But we've got 3-4 years to manage that transition. Why panic and start picking young guys who haven't earned their spot?

The worst thing Australia could do would be to swing our pendulum so far in favour of youth that we lose sight of actually picking our best available squad.

 

[Bourky23]

yes, he had to be picked. feel sorry for big dave though

 

[hujsh]

Well, Lee and Clark are bowlers, so they've got bugger-all to do with Katich.

That aside, there's no doubt that there will come a time when we have to replace ageing players.

But we've got 3-4 years to manage that transition. Why panic and start picking young guys who haven't earned their spot?

The worst thing Australia could do would be to swing our pendulum so far in favour of youth that we lose sight of actually picking our best available squad.

Means we have holes in the batting and bowling. If were introducing a few batsmen you want a reliable bowling attack and vice versa.

I just think that it would be foolish to not keep one eye on the future to ensure that we don't slide too far or at all.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

Means we have holes in the batting and bowling. If were introducing a few batsmen you want a reliable bowling attack and vice versa.

Whatever you reckon, champ.

You're basically saying that you want good players throughout the team. No kidding.

But you don't start blooding young bats when your bowlers are ageing, and you don't start blooding young bowlers when your bats are ageing. It would be completely illogical to argue otherwise.

The ages of Lee and Clark have nothing to do with the merits of Katich's recall.

I just think that it would be foolish to not keep one eye on the future to ensure that we don't slide too far or at all.

Yeah, that's what you keep saying.

And I have no problem picking a young bat once there's one who deserves it. At the moment, there are no young bats pushing hard enough. That's the bottom line.

So picking Katich, the form bat in the country, is an easy decision.

 

[hujsh]

Whatever you reckon, champ.

You're basically saying that you want good players throughout the team. No kidding.

But you don't start blooding young bats when your bowlers are ageing, and you don't start blooding young bowlers when your bats are ageing. It would be completely illogical to argue otherwise.

The ages of Lee and Clark have nothing to do with the merits of Katich's recall.

Yeah, that's what you keep saying.

And I have no problem picking a young bat once there's one who deserves it. At the moment, there are no young bats pushing hard enough. That's the bottom line.

So picking Katich, the form bat in the country, is an easy decision.

It's to do with the teams future.

You say no young player deserves a spot. I bet people said about Clarke that before he got a cap but he lifted and did better than Hodge (an older more seasoned domestic player) would of. I think White would be a very good selection and not just because he's a Vic. Didn't have as good a season as Katich but Katich had a few shots and couldn't cement a spot when it came to test level cricket.

If Hodge did exactly what Katich has done this season i wouldn't want him in the team either so it's not a Katich thing (if you think that)

And I'm sick of this "we have to pick the best team" crap. We actually don't. It's the West Indies, not South Africa. I'm sure we'll be fine without Katich.

 

[hujsh]

Whatever you reckon, champ.

You're basically saying that you want good players throughout the team. No kidding.

But you don't start blooding young bats when your bowlers are ageing, and you don't start blooding young bowlers when your bats are ageing. It would be completely illogical to argue otherwise.

The ages of Lee and Clark have nothing to do with the merits of Katich's recall.

Yeah, that's what you keep saying.

And I have no problem picking a young bat once there's one who deserves it. At the moment, there are no young bats pushing hard enough. That's the bottom line.

So picking Katich, the form bat in the country, is an easy decision.

It's to do with the teams future.

You say no young player deserves a spot. I bet people said about Clarke that before he got a cap but he lifted and did better than Hodge (an older more seasoned domestic player) would of. I think White would be a very good selection and not just because he's a Vic. Didn't have as good a season as Katich but Katich had a few shots and couldn't cement a spot when it came to test level cricket.

If Hodge did exactly what Katich has done this season i wouldn't want him in the team either so it's not a Katich thing (if you think that)

" You're basically saying that you want good players throughout the team. No kidding."
WTF. I'm saying that you don't want to be introducing new bowlers the same time as new batsmen. So at least one part of your game is settled.

And I'm sick of this "we have to pick the best team" crap. We actually don't. It's the West Indies, not South Africa. I'm sure we'll be fine without Katich.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

You say no young player deserves a spot. I bet people said about Clarke that before he got a cap but he lifted and did better than Hodge (an older more seasoned domestic player) would of.

Michael Clarke debuted in a unique set of circumstances.

Firstly, he had been playing ODIs for 18 months and had been averaging 40. So he was a long way ahead of someone like Pomersbach or White.

Secondly, he was in the right place at the right time. He was in India with the ODI squad and Boof got injured. The timing was crucial, and he basically got lucky. And then he scored two centuries, ensuring he would never be too far from the mix.

None of that means we should start picking young players who haven't truly earnt it.

I think White would be a very good selection and not just because he's a Vic. Didn't have as good a season as Katich but Katich had a few shots and couldn't cement a spot when it came to test level cricket.

If you actually think Cam White should be picked in the Test squad, you're on another planet.

He has done nowhere near enough to warrant selection.

Not even in the frame.

And I'm sick of this "we have to pick the best team" crap. We actually don't.

I reckon we should pick our best available team.

You don't.

What you're suggesting is a fundamental departure from our enduring selection policy. We pick our best available side. Anything else would devalue the baggy green and make a mockery of the guys slugging it out domestically.

Why don't we just send our U20 World Cup team instead? We can "give them a taste" while "looking to the future". Apparently that's our new #1 priority.

 

[hujsh]

Michael Clarke debuted in a unique set of circumstances.

Firstly, he had been playing ODIs for 18 months and had been averaging 40. So he was a long way ahead of someone like Pomersbach or White.

Secondly, he was in the right place at the right time. He was in India with the ODI squad and Boof got injured. The timing was crucial, and he basically got lucky. And then he scored two centuries, ensuring he would never be too far from the mix.

None of that means we should start picking young players who haven't truly earnt it.

If you actually think Cam White should be picked in the Test squad, you're on another planet.

He has done nowhere near enough to warrant selection.

Not even in the frame.

I reckon we should pick our best available team.

You don't.

What you're suggesting is a fundamental departure from our enduring selection policy. We pick our best available side. Anything else would devalue the baggy green and make a mockery of the guys slugging it out domestically.

Why don't we just send our U20 World Cup team instead? We can "give them a taste" while "looking to the future". Apparently that's our new #1 priority.

If you think Katich can add anything different to the team then you're high. Don't underestimate the value of a few youthful players.

White's done enough IMO. Experienced, talented, decent First class record (as many of our test cricketers had before picked), averaged just under 50 this season and only 22 runs and he's the 5th highest run scorer this season.

But obviously you seem happy for us to slip down from being the number 1 side in the world due to lack of planning for the future. If we win and find out that White is ready for test cricket if needed, then we really gain something from this tour. If Katich does well then we can say "nice for him" but that's about it.

But maybe Katich can stuff up us there like he did in so many one-day matches.

 

[Gunnar Longshanks]

If you think Katich can add anything different to the team then you're high. Don't underestimate the value of a few youthful players.

He's unlikely to play, but he's undoubtedly part of our best squad, and that's all that matters.

He's the form batsman in the country. There is no better option as the reserve bat.

Australia's greatest asset in recent years has been experience. That's what wins series. When was the last time opting for experience backfired?

If David Hussey was named as the reserve instead of Katich, would you still be whinging about the need to "plan for the future"? I doubt it.

White's done enough IMO. Experienced, talented, decent First class record (as many of our test cricketers had before picked), averaged just under 50 this season and only 22 runs and he's the 5th highest run scorer this season.

White's FC record is nothing special. It's certainly not impressive enough to warrant selection for this tour.

If White had been picked ahead of Katich, it would have been an absolute sham.

It would have completely undermined the notion that if you score enough runs domestically, you'll get your chance.

White's 24 years old. He's got plenty of time. If he goes back to Victoria and scores a stack of runs, he'll get his shot. There's no need to swing the pendulum and select him before he deserves it.

But obviously you seem happy for us to slip down from being the number 1 side in the world due to lack of planning for the future. If we win and find out that White is ready for test cricket if needed, then we really gain something from this tour. If Katich does well then we can say "nice for him" but that's about it.

But maybe Katich can stuff up us there like he did in so many one-day matches.

Again, Katich probably isn't going to play unless there's an injury.

But if someone does get injured, we want the most accomplished, most capable bat ready to step in. At the moment, that batsman is Katich. No two ways about it.

As for "planning for the future", we've got at least 2-3 years before we need to replace Hussey, Ponting and Symonds - if Roy lasts that long. There's no immediate need to fast-track an undeserving kid. The domestic competition is where young batsmen develop. By the time they're playing for Australia, they need to be at the very top of the tree. If they're 30+ when they get there, so be it.

Part of the strength of the Australian side lies in having world-class players on the fringes. A vacancy opens up, and it is quckly filled by Mike Hussey, Phil Jaques, Brad Haddin or Stuart Clark, who were ready-made Test cricketers because they had to wait. Your youth policy would have seen these guys overlooked for a kid still finding his feet. That would have sucked, wouldn't it?

Imagine if we had given Cosgrove a cap after one good season. That would have been a mistake, but people like you would have justified it on the grounds that we were "planning for the future".

Again, when was the last time opting for experience backfired?

If White and Pomersbach have another good season or two, they'll be knocking on the door. They'll be better for the wait and the team will be in a stronger position.

It's not meant to be easy to get into the Australian Test team, but you want to promote kids for the sake of it, even if they haven't earnt their opportunity. That's bad news.

 

[achancely]

Picking the best squad remains our #1 priority.

Only if you're not looking to the future.

I don't see how you can disagree with that.

Very easily, because it is incredibly simplistic.

If there was a young player really pushing for a spot, I'd be more amenable to squeezing him into the squad. But there simply aren't any young bats who have done enough to warrant selection. Pomersbach has had one good season - that just isn't enough. Who else?

Pomersbach has had two good seasons, and has shown plenty against touring sides previously.

In addition, he's performing far better than Clarke did when he was picked. Do you disagree Clarke should have been picked for India.

For INDIA. And this is the...West Indies.

Besides, we don't need to push a young bat into the mix right now. It makes complete sense to expect Pomersbach and whoever else to back up their break-out seasons before offering national honours.

We don't need to panic and start picking young guys before they're ready or before they're genuinely deserving.

Because our team can't afford short-sighted silliness like that. We have to start offering squad spots (not first XI spots) based on potential. Because we're going to need those potentials very soon.

As you said - Katich is unlikely to play. Hence, he is a waste of a spot and it should be given to someone who is being groomed. I don't see how anyone who cares about Australian cricket doesn't agree with this.

 

[achancely]

Part of the strength of the Australian side lies in having world-class players on the fringes.

Not anymore. You're living in the past.

Imagine if we had given Cosgrove a cap after one good season. That would have been a mistake,

Would it? Are you so sure?