showing loyalty vs playing a hack past his use by date vs keeping a player who's undecided

[kranky al]

ok something i think about when i see people on here say - trade kerr, trade cox, trade lynch


where do you win or loser in this -

trade coxy - you are talking a pivotal part of our club in the glory years - and possibly in the future

trade kerr - same same - but maybe not so much as coxy in the future

trade lynch - not quite and not even

but



all 3 are west aussie products and what are you telling other players who are offered trades when they become huge success stories - dont give loyalty as you wont get any?

the eagles have just seemed to get out of their no-aboriginal-because-of-sampi aversion

and now are (on big footy at least) into the all the vics will leave us mode because of judd

what message are you sending to future players?




discuss

 

[Mattman93]

I'm confused.

 

[Vincent Proud]

Has the OP been smoking?

 

[DivideandMultiply]

ok something i think about when i see people on here say - trade kerr, trade cox, trade lynch


where do you win or loser in this -

trade coxy - you are talking a pivotal part of our club in the glory years - and possibly in the future

trade kerr - same same - but maybe not so much as coxy in the future

trade lynch - not quite and not even

but



all 3 are west aussie products and what are you telling other players who are offered trades when they become huge success stories - dont give loyalty as you wont get any?

the eagles have just seemed to get out of their no-aboriginal-because-of-sampi aversion

and now are (on big footy at least) into the all the vics will leave us mode because of judd

what message are you sending to future players?



discuss

In the last three National Drafts (2007-2009) we have picked up Scott Selwood, Luke Shuey, Ash Smith, Jordan Jones and Kobe Stevens all from Victoria.

That is 5 out of 12 draftees, so 1 less than what we have taken from WA.

Out of that list, two look to be a couple of our best future midfield prospects in the future, in S. Selwood and Shuey (though as we know things can change very rapidly). Stevens also looks like he could end up as a very good mid for us, with Ash Smith and J. J. both looking like they could be ok-to damaging HBF/part time wingmen.

All things considered I think this shows we should be scouring Vic for available talent.

 

[bunsen burner]

trade coxy - you are talking a pivotal part of our club in the glory years - and possibly in the future

What happened in 2006 is irrelevant. Cox's trade value is declining rapidly. NicNat will be better off being #1 ruckman. If we can get a top 10 pick for him I'd take it.

trade kerr - same same - but maybe not so much as coxy in the future

Same as above. Our problem is our midfield. Swift, Ebert, Masten, and Selwood are looking doubtful in becoming elite. We can't win a flag without 2 elite players and by the time we plan to be there Cox and Kerr will be past it. We need a Dustin Martin or Cyril Rioli or Stephen Hill.

With Cox, Kerr, Ebert, Masten, Swift, we probably won't be able to win a flag. We need to keep searching for elite midfielders.

all 3 are west aussie products

Not sure why this is relevant?

and what are you telling other players who are offered trades when they become huge success stories - dont give loyalty as you wont get any?

There is no loyalty in football.

what message are you sending to future players?

The message is simple: "We are the West Coast Eagles and we win flags. If we bring you in, you will win a flag. Once the flag is won and the window is closed, we may move you on to another club where you will make more money and may win another flag"

If I was coach of brisbane in 05 I would have offloaded Lappin, Black, and Power for top 5 draft picks and rebuilt. When Geelong's window closes I'd be offloading Bartel, Ablett, Johnson etc etc.

Football is about flags, not loyalty.

 

[TroyUgle]

There is no loyalty in football.

While I understand what you're getting at, and realise that impending free agency will give more creedence to what you say, at this stage, thankfully, we're not there yet.

Why didn't the Pies trade Buckley after their window shut in 02/03? Or the Bulldogs with Brad Johnson?

Look at another way, when Voss took your 'no loyalty in football, I'm out for flags and stuff the players' attitude - look at the mess the Lions are in right now. They are entering a massive rebuild because he had your attitude. He pissed everybody off, and now everybody wants out of there.

Can you imagine the uproar if, as you describe, you got rid of Black, Lappin and Power from Brizzy in 05 or Ablett, Bartel and Johnson from the Cats next year?

You'd piss everybody off. Everybody would want to leave, and you'd be sacked.

And you could give your 'We win flags, if we bring you in you'll win a flag speech' to the Gosford U-16s.

 

[Spartan]

Its a tough one for sure.

If someone offered us top #10 picks for either Kerr or Cox we would surely have to think about it.

The issue is that when the value of these players are high enough to warrant a trade we wouldn't trade them because of factors such as they are still playing well, important to the club, we need the experienced older players that have tasted success, etc etc.

Then there is a point where their value is too low to warrant getting rid of such a player for the reasons above minus the playing well part.

In hindsight trading Kerr two (or was it three) years ago would have been a very wise move for the club.

If we could get Griffen at a bargain price I'd look at moving Cox on.. but only if Coxy was happy to move. I wouldn't be kicking him out of the club. As another poster pointed out we don't need another Brisbane situation where guys like Bunga and Lecca decide they want to leave the club.

 

[Pat_Footy]

Surely what's happened at the Lions should stop all the "trade Kerr and Cox" talk. Brisbane are in absolute ruins. If you offer someone up for trade they will go even if it falls through. The Eagles more than anyone are relying on interstate talent such as Shuey, Selwood and co.
Lets not create a culture whereby trading is important. Brisbane has shown its all a pack of cards.

 

[Marlin01]

We went through exactly the same thing with Peter Matera and Glen Jakovich post '94. It was apparent that both were past their prime, but their output was still considerably more than could be expected from a first or second year player. Both players were being lured by other clubs.

As it turns out, we held onto them and it was only 12 years until the next generation delivered another premiership. Would it have have been less than 12 years, if we'd traded those players for the top draft picks we'd have surely received? Who knows? As a fan, I'm glad they retired as Eagles.

 

[Spartan]

I was watching a replay of the '92 grand final the other day. Matera was such a superstar.

Stupid GC pinching Brandon.

 

[Underdog]

I was watching a replay of the '92 grand final the other day. Matera was such a superstar.

Stupid GC pinching Brandon.

errr....

 

[Eastern Rangers]

We went through exactly the same thing with Peter Matera and Glen Jakovich post '94. It was apparent that both were past their prime, but their output was still considerably more than could be expected from a first or second year player. Both players were being lured by other clubs.

As it turns out, we held onto them and it was only 12 years until the next generation delivered another premiership. Would it have have been less than 12 years, if we'd traded those players for the top draft picks we'd have surely received? Who knows? As a fan, I'm glad they retired as Eagles.

Difference between trading stars out and trading out journeymen. Woosha has tried to build a side around average footballers.

 

[Trouto]

I am big on loyalty, I like the idea of a "one club" player. Just because a player's star has dimmed a bit in skill level, doesnt man they are not valuable to the club. Experience passed on to the youth is massivly valuable. I think that might be a factor in our sudden decline over the past few years, either the loss of so many experienced players or the lack of leadership in the remaining older players...or a combination of the two.

I think getting rid of Cox will be very detrimental to Nicnat's growth, as well as other players that feed of Cox's experience. Kerr, i am unsure of. I cant say i have ever seen too much leadership in Kerr, seems a bit immature to me.

 

[Spartan]

errr....

'92, '94 and '06 help me forget about '10.

 

[Marlin01]

Difference between trading stars out and trading out journeymen. Woosha has tried to build a side around average footballers.

I was referring to Cox and Kerr.

 

[bunsen burner]

While I understand what you're getting at, and realise that impending free agency will give more creedence to what you say, at this stage, thankfully, we're not there yet.

Has nothing to do with free agency and everything to do with premierships.

For years I advocated cutting dead wood, staying at the bottom of the ladder, and drafting kids. People like you tried to tell me I was wrong. Then Clarkson came out and did it and won a flag.

Soon a coach will sell off his premiership team when he realises the window is closed and with the high picks he gets he will recruit the core of another premiership team.

Why didn't the Pies trade Buckley after their window shut in 02/03? Or the Bulldogs with Brad Johnson?

Notice I didn't advocate selling Voss, Johnno Brown, and Joel Selwood?

Some players are not tradeable (for various reasons). You wouldn't trade a Buckley, Hird, Voss etc but you would trade a Cox, Kerr, Black, etc

Look at another way, when Voss took your 'no loyalty in football, I'm out for flags and stuff the players' attitude - look at the mess the Lions are in right now.

My strategy is a million miles from Voss's strategy. Polar opposites in fact.

They are entering a massive rebuild because he had your attitude. He pissed everybody off, and now everybody wants out of there.

Can you imagine the uproar if, as you describe, you got rid of Black, Lappin and Power from Brizzy in 05 or Ablett, Bartel and Johnson from the Cats next year?

Flags talk. We spent 12 years in nowhere land because we held onto a list that was not good enough to win the flag.

You'd piss everybody off. Everybody would want to leave, and you'd be sacked.

Not true.

If you've just delivered a flag or 3 you would have people's trust. When people see you have drafted similar to what GC are going to grab this year then there would be a lot of optimism. Some players would have a problem - they can either harden up or leave. I suspect most would get over it, see the wood from the tress, and relish their new opportunities.

And you could give your 'We win flags, if we bring you in you'll win a flag speech' to the Gosford U-16s.

Obviously you don't know who Sir Alex Ferguson is.

 

[bunsen burner]

Surely what's happened at the Lions should stop all the "trade Kerr and Cox" talk. Brisbane are in absolute ruins.

Interesting how you interpret the cause of their situation. Their problem is they tried to top up. Has ZERO to do with trading out players.

If you offer someone up for trade they will go even if it falls through.

If you're offering up your a-graders their will be no shortage of suitors.

The Eagles more than anyone are relying on interstate talent such as Shuey, Selwood and co.
Lets not create a culture whereby trading is important. Brisbane has shown its all a pack of cards.

No one here has advocated "top up trading" or large scale trading on an annual basis.

I'm talking every time your window shuts which is every 7 years tops. The only culture I see is "be recruited to team who wins flags, and once the window closes we get traded out".

I think most players would take that.

 

[kranky al]

gosh - what a rambling load of red wine induced crap i wrote - apologies to all and thanks to the people who waded their way through it and picked some semblance of sense out of it

 

[Denton52]

RE Cox and Kerr, I'd rather hold onto champions if possible and trade only journeymen. Only because i tend to think young players get a certain buzz playing/devlopment wise when they are around.

I remember Judd saying how thrilled he was to play with Peter Matera for that year (possibly the best player he had seen). Obviously it's hard to measure the real impact. But who knows, without Matera there, he might've been content to just go through the motions and get traded back to Victoria as soon as possible.

Sure, if the clubs confident they have the next gen of leaders/guns coming through well, then trade them. I'm just not sure LeCras/Shuey/Hurn is enough right now.

Then again, i still find it strange that Cox and Kerr were overlooked for leadership roles up against Selwood and Priddis.

 

[bunsen burner]

Sure, if the clubs confident they have the next gen of leaders/guns coming through well, then trade them. I'm just not sure LeCras/Shuey/Hurn is enough right now.

If le Cras/Shuey/Hurn are not enough then wouldn't that be more of a reason to trade Cox and kerr? The more a gun a player is, the less he needs leadership.

Then again, i still find it strange that Cox and Kerr were overlooked for leadership roles up against Selwood and Priddis.

Kerr doesn't surprise me. Word is that he is an immature dickwad. Plus he can't yet break a hard tag. Cox surprises me a bit. From all accounts he's a good bloke. There must be something we can't see - maybe he doesn't train hard, or maybe he's too much of a party boy, or maybe he's just not a natural leader?

The thing that bother me about Selwood and Priddis is that they can't play. Your leaders have to be better on the field than those two.

 

[Ochre]

Cox is a VC isn't he?

Unless your talking about acting captains throughout the year, I think the reason Cox didn't do it is they wre trialling alll the potential captains, and Cox is too old.

oh and think he still may've been AC once or twice

 

[larrikin]

yep, Cox was in the leadership group again this year and captained us in 2 or 3 games

 

[Denton52]

If le Cras/Shuey/Hurn are not enough then wouldn't that be more of a reason to trade Cox and kerr? The more a gun a player is, the less he needs leadership.


Kerr doesn't surprise me. Word is that he is an immature dickwad. Plus he can't yet break a hard tag. Cox surprises me a bit. From all accounts he's a good bloke. There must be something we can't see - maybe he doesn't train hard, or maybe he's too much of a party boy, or maybe he's just not a natural leader?

The thing that bother me about Selwood and Priddis is that they can't play. Your leaders have to be better on the field than those two.

TBH it does seem the best move to trade Cox-Kerr. It's just the unusual situation of having b-graders suddenly become our seniors/leaders that's troubling.

Unfortunately, the massive failure of that middle-age group screwed our small chance of a quick rebuild. If we did trade them, i'd also throw in Priddis, Selwood, Embley just to guarantee a full rebuild and put the full leadership duties on LeCras, Hurn and co.