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News Siekman departs
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I was annoyed when I read headlines that said that Siekman had been "dumped". I just wish I could write a few headlines about the personal lives of the some of the sports writers (no such thing as a sports journalist). Siekman's contract was at an end. There's no need to sink the boot in. I think we all know that there were errors made by people other than Siekman in the first year or so. Players did go elsewhere and he should probably shoulder some of the blame. However, the club made some key mistakes at the start. Hopefully, things have turned around. I dont follow the netball at all, but there seems to have been some problems there. If the club is going into women's sport, then it needs to be professional about it. Hopefully, the new manager of women's sport has addressed these issues for the long term.
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St Kilda great Danny Frawley eyes Magpies AFLW coach job
St Kilda great Danny Frawley is not ruling out a bid for the vacant Collingwood AFLW coaching role, calling himself "potentially interested" in the job.
"It's something I'd look at, it's something I'm thinking about," he said of the role, left open after Wayne Siekman's sacking last week.
Danny Frawley says working in suburban footy has reignited his passion for coaching.
He was looking to get back into coaching, he said, after leading his daughters' suburban footy team, Old Haileybury Women's, reminded him of his love for the job.
"There's no doubt coaching that team reignited my passion," he said.
The 1988 all-Australian and Saints Hall of Fame inductee added he had been inspired by the AFLW and its players since he got involved in coaching the women's game.
Frawley declined to say whether Collingwood had approached him about the role.
The 55-year-old played 240 games for St Kilda and won a best and fairest, before taking on a coaching role at Richmond, where he led the Tigers to a preliminary final in 2001.
A return would see the the former St Kilda captain break his 15-year hiatus from top-level coaching, after he left Punt Road in 2004.
He spent two seasons at Hawthorn in 2008 and 2009 as a part-time assistant and was a part-time defensive coach for St Kilda in 2014.
News that Frawley was being sounded out for the role broke on Wednesday, with Richmond great Matthew Richardson backing him on 3AW radio that evening.
“Spud [Frawley] would make a great coach,” Richardson said. “When he came into Richmond he got us all together and really helped the culture. He’d be a great appointment.”
AFLW premiership coach Bec Goddard is also in the mix and is "more likely than not" to apply for the role, with her manager confirming she was interested and Collingwood were aware of this.
Goddard coached the Crows in 2017 and 2018, leading the club to the inaugural AFLW premiership.
She then moved to Canberra to work for the Australian Federal Police, and was an assistant coach for WNBL team Canberra Capitals for the 2018-19 season, when they won the the league championship.
The Magpies formally opened their search for a new coach on Monday following the sacking of Siekman.
Siekman coached the AFLW side for three years, during which they won just seven out of 21 games.
In the 2019 season they finished last in conference B with the worst win-loss record in the competition's short history (1-6
St Kilda great Danny Frawley is not ruling out a bid for the vacant Collingwood AFLW coaching role, calling himself "potentially interested" in the job.
"It's something I'd look at, it's something I'm thinking about," he said of the role, left open after Wayne Siekman's sacking last week.
Danny Frawley says working in suburban footy has reignited his passion for coaching.
He was looking to get back into coaching, he said, after leading his daughters' suburban footy team, Old Haileybury Women's, reminded him of his love for the job.
"There's no doubt coaching that team reignited my passion," he said.
The 1988 all-Australian and Saints Hall of Fame inductee added he had been inspired by the AFLW and its players since he got involved in coaching the women's game.
Frawley declined to say whether Collingwood had approached him about the role.
The 55-year-old played 240 games for St Kilda and won a best and fairest, before taking on a coaching role at Richmond, where he led the Tigers to a preliminary final in 2001.
A return would see the the former St Kilda captain break his 15-year hiatus from top-level coaching, after he left Punt Road in 2004.
He spent two seasons at Hawthorn in 2008 and 2009 as a part-time assistant and was a part-time defensive coach for St Kilda in 2014.
News that Frawley was being sounded out for the role broke on Wednesday, with Richmond great Matthew Richardson backing him on 3AW radio that evening.
“Spud [Frawley] would make a great coach,” Richardson said. “When he came into Richmond he got us all together and really helped the culture. He’d be a great appointment.”
AFLW premiership coach Bec Goddard is also in the mix and is "more likely than not" to apply for the role, with her manager confirming she was interested and Collingwood were aware of this.
Goddard coached the Crows in 2017 and 2018, leading the club to the inaugural AFLW premiership.
She then moved to Canberra to work for the Australian Federal Police, and was an assistant coach for WNBL team Canberra Capitals for the 2018-19 season, when they won the the league championship.
The Magpies formally opened their search for a new coach on Monday following the sacking of Siekman.
Siekman coached the AFLW side for three years, during which they won just seven out of 21 games.
In the 2019 season they finished last in conference B with the worst win-loss record in the competition's short history (1-6
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
Who else is in the market for a coach?
IIRC the comp has four new teams next year? I’m guessing they’re all looking for coaches? Any existing coaches let go yet apart from Siekman?
IIRC the comp has four new teams next year? I’m guessing they’re all looking for coaches? Any existing coaches let go yet apart from Siekman?
I'm in favour of a male coach only because they have been there and done that at professional level whereas women haven't had a chance to but I think you tend to respect a coach more if they have played at professional level themselves. I think that may be a reason Daniel Harford turned Carlton around.
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
Much of current society sees that approach as a problem ...
... yes, as you say men do have had more experience at the professional level. And yes, we can use that as a reason to justify why we should hire a man. And if we can use that excuse then every other club can use that excuse too. And therefore women never (or more slowly) get the opportunities to get the experience to become professional and therefore to get opportunities, etc, etc. It becomes a vicious cycle. It effectively reinforces institutionalised sexism and glass ceilings. And there are parallel issues with race, age, etc, etc.
And sure, all you want is the best person to coach your footy team, but you’ve accidentally stepped in the bear trap of institutionalised sexism. Such is the world we live in today.
Some of the world is embracing counter-measures against institutionalised ism’s such as affirmative action and positive discrimination. That stuff is super contentious - particularly when somebody feels that they’re being forced to accept that the coach of their beloved footy team will be less than the best.
In my opinion I reckon the world (and our footy club) is better for addressing this stuff. By giving people who haven’t had access to opportunities before a chance to show what they’re capable of, we’re increasing our pool of diversity, diversity leads to innovation, innovation leads to success.
But IMHO that doesn’t really apply here. I’d feel perfectly comfortable if Penny Cula-Reid got the AFLW gig ahead of Mick Malthouse ...
... not because of any favouritism towards female candidates or any affirmative action ...
... but simply because Penny would have been the best person for the job.
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
Peta Searle (IIRC captain of Darebin back in the day, assistant coach of Port Melbourne, Assistant Coach of St Kilda AFL) will be Senior coach of St Kilda’s AFLW team
Yes I don't mean men are necessarily better coaches than women but I just think whilst men have more experience the players would respond better to an experienced coach. But in the future it would be better women coached women when they have gotten to the stage of having a professional career then retired then moved into coaching. The league is not old enough for that to have happened yet. That's what I mean.
What I said replies to Siekman who is a male coach but didn't play as a professional. I just think you are more likely to listen to someone you looked up to as a kid playing, in some way their opinions hold more weight and clout if you aspire to achieve what they said. It's just gives you more legitimacy.
Just like Buckley's playing career no doubt a lot of the male team looked up to and admire so they get an extra buzz of motivation playing for someone like that.
If Erin Phillips just retired I would say the same thing, get her to coach having been there, done that. Not a sexism thing, just a top level playing experience thing.
Just like Buckley's playing career no doubt a lot of the male team looked up to and admire so they get an extra buzz of motivation playing for someone like that.
If Erin Phillips just retired I would say the same thing, get her to coach having been there, done that. Not a sexism thing, just a top level playing experience thing.
76woodenspooners
Brownlow Medallist
Experience as a player or as a coach?
If it’s experience as a player, then the experience that somebody like Spud Frawley would be incredibly dated. Not sure how much experience is transferable between playing the men’s game in the 1980’s versus playing the women’s game in 2020.
If it’s experience as a coach, then as I mentioned, women are always going to struggle to get experience if they’re not given opportunities to get that experience. There will always be male castoffs from the AFL coaching ranks who have more experience than either recently retired AFLW players or female assistant coaches.
Not necessarily. I’ve worked in female dominated workplaces with female management who have responded very positively to introducing male leadership. Obviously thst’s not definitive, and I’m not suggesting it is.
The women’s comp has been around (in amateur form) for quite a while, a lot longer than the AFLW has been around for. Peta Searle has been a high profile product of that. Maybe there are others who we simply haven’t heard about?
There are coaches like Dale Tapping - a highly effective coach who never played at the top level - who show that that doesn’t have to be the case.
Some of the successful coaches weren’t particularly notable players that the kids looked up to (Clarkson, Malthouse, Hafey, Beveridge, Thompson), and some were (Barassi being the obvious one, Blight, Worsfold)
Obviously having played the game is a good thing ...
... but playing and coaching are two very different skillsets.
I think she just has?
It doesn't necessarily have to be a star ex player but has any men's coach who never played the game coached a premiership?
Allan Jeans is the best coach I've ever seen and he played 77 games but he still played.
Are Carlton still shit because Brendan Bolton never played at the top level therefore he will never quite get it? I think maybe.
Neil Craig probably the best coach to have never played but he played 300 SANFL games.
I think it just adds a lot to your credibility to have played top level, doesn't matter if you were a legend or not, but it pads your resume as a coach.
Wayne Brittain is another non playing coach who didn't have much success, and I think if it applies to AFL it probably applies a bit to AFLW too, there has to be a reason for it. Brendan McCartney struggled.
The evidence to me mounts that coaches who never played aren't successful.
Allan Jeans is the best coach I've ever seen and he played 77 games but he still played.
Are Carlton still shit because Brendan Bolton never played at the top level therefore he will never quite get it? I think maybe.
Neil Craig probably the best coach to have never played but he played 300 SANFL games.
I think it just adds a lot to your credibility to have played top level, doesn't matter if you were a legend or not, but it pads your resume as a coach.
Wayne Brittain is another non playing coach who didn't have much success, and I think if it applies to AFL it probably applies a bit to AFLW too, there has to be a reason for it. Brendan McCartney struggled.
The evidence to me mounts that coaches who never played aren't successful.
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Overall in the AFL context that’s quite correct, mostly.
It’s likely lack of authority that kills them, so they get the lesser gigs.
And hence their players are lesser so their chances for success are lesser.
So failure in inevitable - assuming success is only ever judged by flags.
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Just as an excercise some of the real champions as players who found success as coaches.
Note: I am not counting captain, coach. Using last 60 years or so only.
Champions of highest order,
who were premiership coaches:
Then the lesser players (note Malthouse probably a bit better than lesser player):
Note: I am not counting captain, coach. Using last 60 years or so only.
Champions of highest order,
who were premiership coaches:
- Leigh Matthews
- John Coleman
- Ron Barassi
- Malcolm Blight
- Adam Simpson
- Damien Hardwick
- John Longmire
- Chris Scott
- Mark Thompson
- John Worsfold *
- David Parkin *
- Paul Roos
- Mark Williams
- Kevin Sheedy
- Robert Walls
- John Kennedy
- Norm Smith
- Bob Davis
Then the lesser players (note Malthouse probably a bit better than lesser player):
- Luke Beveridge
- Alistair Clarkson
- Mick Malthouse
- Denis Pagan
- Alan Joyce
- Tony Jewell
- Tom Hafey
- Allan Jeans
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You forgot Allan Jeans, the most inspirational coach ever IMO.
Probably a lesser player, only 70 odd games but he took a training session for me in under 19's, gee everything he said made the hair on your neck stand up....
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76woodenspooners
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Nah, I think you put Mick in the correct bucket.
I reckon Barassi belongs at the very top, followed by a lot of daylight, then Matthews followed closely by Blight. Don’t know where Coleman belongs.
You missed Jazzalenko? Yeah, he was a captain coach, but is deserving. As much as I hate to admit it, he was considered to be one of the best players in the league in his day. Probably similar aura to Chris Judd (but with much more X factor), although Jezza was surrounded by much better players than Judd was. After Judd had put his hands in the cookie jar there nothing left for anybody else.
If you were going to go back 60 years, you may as well have made it 70 and slotted in Phonse Kyne there somewhere? Would he go in the top bucket or middle bucket?
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Phonse Kyle would be upper medium bucket (like Robert Walls, Paul Roos, and others. He was terrific.
I met his widow once, was a thrill. Had a bit of a chat. But I digress.
Coleman was uber elite. Superstar.
Jesaulenko was top shelf too, better in my view than Judd. A more complete player. Kicked over 100 in a season, Judd just didn’t have that versatility.
But I just didn’t include the captain coaches, if I did both Jesaulenko and John Nicholls would be in the highest category. Great players.
I’m secretly waiting (hope so anyway) when Nathan Buckley joins the list. He’d go in the top bucket too. Brilliant uber elite player. As good a long kick pass as I’ve ever seen.
In case anyone has missed it, Leigh Matthews is my best ever player seen, and my best coach I’ve seen.
Just can listen to him talk for hours.
TradeDraft
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So that Means Dunn going to try and make a Comeback then?
76woodenspooners
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Not necessarily.
It’d just make things a bit awkward for him being an assistant if he didn’t get the job.
It also means that he could potentially play a role in the recruitment process - which would probably be better experience than applying for a job he might be unlikely to get.
Vicky Park
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Odd that a new coach hasn't been announced as yet, or possibly even appointed (we dont know). Would have thought his or her duties would encompass some role or input into the VFLW. With that season now underway, it just seems strange that we have no senior AFLW coach. Hopefully this week.
76woodenspooners
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IIRC Woodlands-Thompson did warn that the recruitment process would take a while.
There’ll be updating and review of JD, seeking expressions of interest period, interviewing, second round interviews, (maybe third round), due diligence, deliberation, preparation of offer, consideration of offer, acceptance ...
... and that’s all happening during AFLW trade period and VFLW season launch and netball season launch when key people are already busy ...
... and the decision will likely then need to be ratified by the board, and they only convene once a month (although I reckon they’d hold an emergency board meeting rather keep the best candidate hanging in limbo for up to a month) ...
... and then there’ll be the stage management of the public announcement which will include delays taken to prepare plus waiting until the appropriate time.
Gee, with all that, they’ll be struggling to get it done before the AFLW season kickoff!!
