Autopsy So so so close (Please read OP)

[Saintly Viewed]

Yes, there is an argument about that. A 5-goal lead with over 3 quarters of football to play in a modern game of football in dry conditions is far from gigantic, and very gettable...unfortunately.

Besides the fact that it was Collingwood and we were playing a GF, I rarely think that 5 goals is a 'safe' margin in a game of football these days, not even in the last quarter. I think it was Leigh Matthews who proposed a rule of thumb: if there are as many minutes left in a game as goals required, then the leading margin is far from safe.

5 goals in modern footy is a blink of an eye, which after all is the amount of time it took us to gain that lead in the first place.

Spot on.

And it was Leigh Matthews that said that.

5 goals with 3 quaters and a bit to go is nothing much. Not tto day.
Essendon over ran Hawthorn from 3/4 time in 1984. Certainly happens.

 

[No SPIN]

Agree on quantitative factors but don’t discount the qualitative components particularly given they say the game is played up top. Not so much for this crew but think about the 70s/80s teams that kept falling short and even to a smaller scale goal-kicking yips, once it starts playing on the mind and becomes ingrained it becomes a burden and has an impact.

How do you suggest you measure qualitative components to decide if they are a problem so they can then be fixed?
How can you assess this over 100 years of history when the majority of GF players are no longer alive.

I think it’s easy for us to postulate that we have an issue with losing G.finals but impossible to prove without hard data.

 

[Collingwoodity]

Just watched the highlights.

UGH.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Just watched the highlights.

UGH.

Should come with a warning.

If pain persists see your doctor*




* doctor of psychiatry

 

[Carson Dial]

Excuse the intrusion but I felt obliged to say that I though Nathan Buckley handled himself with total professionalism, respect and compassion on the day. I was impressed how he consoled the supporters who had spent so much time making the banner, to the way he reached out to the runner who made an error of judgement. Really good to see the human side of a coach that I used to think was just a hard nosed bastard. Respect to NB and commiserations. No doubt you’ll be back stronger than ever next season.

 

[Trickster]

How do you suggest you measure qualitative components to decide if they are a problem so they can then be fixed?
How can you assess this over 100 years of history when the majority of GF players are no longer alive.

I think it’s easy for us to postulate that we have an issue with losing G.finals but impossible to prove without hard data.

I’m not suggesting that there’s anything that needs to be fixed with this group as this loss is independent of all those others. What I’m saying is that this loss is devastating on its own given the circumstances, but more so given the context of our history and close GF losses when we’ve been in front.

With relation to those GF losses under the Rose / Hafey eras, they left indelible psychological scars on our players the coaches and the whole club for a period of 15-20 years. Current players would not be impacted by that but supporters who’ve lived through or are well versed in the history can’t help but connect this loss with all those given their nature. For me personally only until (if) we win a couple in short succession (2010/2018) will it start to right those wrongs.

I’m not professing to speak on behalf of everybody just how I am feeling at this point. Shattered we didn’t equal Carl / Esse, shattered for Buckley given how he’s bled for this club, and shattered by knowing that of 6 interstate teams in successive GFs we happen to fall to one after being 5 goals up.

And to your last comment, we have absolutely had an issue losing GFs in recent past, I hope it doesn’t become a current issue.

 

[Trickster]

Should come with a warning.

If pain persists see your doctor*




* doctor of psychiatry

And excess consumption may cause a laxative effect

 

[Saintly Viewed]

For those that like self inflicted pain our Grand finals post 1958 and we're we really in a position....

Firstly 1958, the one Grand final we won as true under dogs, Melbourne were doing well till quarter time then we somehow pulled off the great heist.

1960 look away, Melbourne dominated as expected. Do not check the scores at quarter time because there is nothing to check at all, literally nothing; then one measly goal by us to half time.

1964 an even match, yes it looked like we had it one with Gabelich and that crazy run and bounces and goal. Then from back pocket came Crompton and we were sunk. Very even us my understanding.

1966 not sure what the point is, but another classic even game. Breen what a pointless thing to do. For us that is.

1970 the dreadful game that set all the problems. Leading by 44 points at half time. McKenna getting concussion. Bad accuracy before half time didn't help either.

• One game we should have won.

1977 The drawn Grand Final. Led by 27 points at three quarter time. We actually fell behind and fought back with that mark, Ross Dunne. People forget that Shane Bond was running towards goal when the siren blew for a draw. By the way Phil Carman didn't play either Grand Final hmm.

• We should have won.

Replay they won by 27 points the same margin we led by in the last game. All we got from the replay was Phil Manassa's great running goal.

1979 another hard working game, but in reality they were a far better side. Very rainy conditions helped us. We actually came at them. Lost by five points (another 5 point loss). The game where Harmes had to pay an entry fee to get back into the MCG. That was horribly unfair, but we didn't really lose the game, more like we really competed strongly.

1980 comprehensively outplayed. We came from 5th that year and we were just a good team. Ever in it. They were so strong all over the ground.

1981 again we were workmanlike as a team. Did ok. Interesting match as we got ahead by 21 points late in the third quarter but easily run down. A lesser last quarter always says to me it was good season but we werent good enough. Medium level we could have won game? Probably not. We did collect about five goals in a row to get the 21 point margin but they slammed a couple to make it only 9 points at the last change. We scored a paltry 2 points in the last quarter.

1990 we won the flag. Celebrating time.

2002 really good tussle with Brisbane. But we, through Nathan Buckley almost won the game. Not a match we threw away or stufffed up. Very gallant and with a far less superior team to the Lions. Great pity but can't knock the application.

2003 they were just better than us, we were never in it. Not a thrown away game, but more an opportunity not taken to make it more of a contest.

2010 Drawn Grand Final. We almost threw it away. Kicked poorly and allowed them to crawl and scrape their way back. This one time, it didn't haunt us. Finally it goes our way.
Replay. We outplay them all ends up. That smother summed up our superior team work and play.
We won. Celebrate.

2011 I take a different view to others I'm sure. We played Geelong three times for three losses. Had a great season and like Richmond this year we went off the boil nearer the end. Getting punch drunk we staved off Hawthorn in an epic prelim, but Geelong pounded us in the last quarter. More wasted opportunity than throwing the game away.

2018 a game where we comprehensively won the first quarter and lost all other three quaters. Did we throw the game away? Not really. But they almost did. Be nice if we had that luck. Very brave by us and we almost pinched it. Great great great shame.

Summing up after 1958:

14 Grand Finals plus 2 Replays

2 wins
2 draws
12 losses

Thrown away games:
2 (1970; 1977)

Close games:

6 plus 2 draws

Can make arguments here and there but on law of averages we could or should have had minimum 5* extra flags to 7 extra flags


* includes the 2 thrown away flags

 

[jathanas]

Chiming in with:

• We choked, it was a huge 5 goal lead.
• Our list should achieve more.
• Making a grand final is a 51% pass-mark for the season.

Is L A M E.

I wish I didn't have to read this tripe, but here it is, and sadly it was predictable.

It dilutes the experience of being a supporter on these forums in my opinion, and adds nothing to the discussion about this game which took place with a team consisting of so many players in the beginnings of their career, and others that were missing through injury.

"We choked?"... How about, we played amazingly well in the first quarter and almost held on to win. Also, how about respecting West Coast? They played a very effective game of footy, especially in the midfield where we were expected to dominate.

"Our list should achieve more... " I'll have what you're smoking. Be logical (and fair) in the assessment of our list.

"Making a grand final is a 51% pass-mark for the season"... Not on planet earth it isn't, it's a great result. This has been acknowledged by the media in general and also by Buckley's peers.

It's fine to share your opinions but they should add value to the discussion or at the very least come from a good place. Your posts can barely disguise your unhealthy dislike of the coach.

Sorry mate but I can't even tell if you wanted Collingwood to win.

You out your mind if you think, getting Nick Maxwell and Longmuire to fix all the ills of this club deserves an extension. The guy is 0-3 in grand finals as a player and coach. And if you wanna be a smart arse and claim his role as an assistant in 2010/11, he’s 1-4-1.

Despite this lovefest for Bucks, and a great effort on Saturday, you can’t hide from the fact we choked when it mattered. I don’t care if Bucks is “all class”. How about you do what your paid for; win the cup.

What is it, 2 premierships from 14 grand finals since 1958? It’s not bloody good enough. It’s professional sport. The club even has “the premiership is a cakewalk” in the theme songs. We aren’t meant to be coming second.

Home deck, vs a weagles side that is hardly a powerhouse. This wasn’t the lions of 02/03 or cats 07 to 11 or hawks of 2012 to 2015.

Ripe for the picking, and when it mattered we couldn’t keep the ball off the eagles for 3 mins. We couldn’t keep the ball in our fwd half for 3 mins. We didn’t play the percentages and play the boundary line and make it stoppage after stoppage after stoppage. And in the end, Sheed is left all alone on the HFF. This isn’t bad luck. It’s bad planning.

3 wins and 10 losses since 2014 where the winning margin is 6 or less points. This loss was not bad luck, or the bounce of the ball. Out coached, and the game plan failed to stand up for 4 qtrs, yet again.

Taking away the great first 20 minutes of the first quarter, we were beaten 11.11-77 to 6.7-37. That is unacceptable. That is a choke job no matter how you spin it. 40 point turnaround with 1:38 left on the clock in the 1st qtr.

You can not have 40 point turnarounds in a Grand Final. If this was a Ross Lyon coach side, or anyone else for that matter, we’d be calling it what it is. A piss poor gameplan that over uses the ball and that’s only sustainable under pressure for 1 quarter in a GF.

At least in 1970, we can blame poor goal kicking and McKenna getting concussion. You cant seriously keep feeding the ego of Buckley with the “oh so brave so close bravo”. He failed to take the ultimate prize. Simple as that.

If Bucks can’t win it next year, and we can’t get Clarkson, we have to look to a Sam Mitchell or Luke Hodge to be the next coach of Collingwood.

It’s professional sport. It’s about winning cups. It’s not about being loyal to the nice guys that always end up the brides maid.

 

[RogerDean]

I’d go half half on your argument here. GF i’ll Give you all the points being valid. The week before we jumped out of the blocks and then held it when they came strong in the last.

I can’t say about Pendles value as a Captain internally but on the outside looking in, has been quite soft when it mattered last couple of seasons. But we know great captains don’t always have to take the game by the scruff of the neck and pave out wins.

I’m sure I can remember plenty saying to get rid of Maxy and what a shit captain he was at the time but now it seems he was a great captain and wish he still had him. So who really knows about Pendles.

I would agree with Adams taking the reigns next year though regarding the Shaw type grunt and flying the flag. Just has to pull his head in sometimes as he can let fly (GWS).

Maybe Pendles stepping down and doing just what Pendles does (purely playing the game), will revitalise him.

One way or another, we’ll soon see.

I'm a Tigers supporter so Ive had to get over our loss to you guys..and its not a lot of fun, but I try to look at footy objectively when the Tigers arent playing. I think you're being a bit harsh on Pendlebury. I rate him highly and although he's lost a yard this season, I dont think its terminal...its an injury that he's carried most of the season and he did a better job half injured than two of ours in the prelim- he's still one of your best, day in and day out. He carved us up in the last home and away game we played you. He's one of the reasons you've done so well. Even half fit, he's one of the best players in the AFL.

 

[whiteside35]

this grand final loss will still hurt for a while,just like alot of the other losing ones,even reading through the comments on here brings back some awful memories from the past,the worst thing is the what ifs from these games and theres lots of them,a goal here,a free there and the pies would probably have another 6 flags.We just don't have that extra bit of luck when we need it or some flash of brilliance to seal it, and we seem to find new ways to lose them,i mean we even lost the 1980 night final after the siren,because no one could hear it.I hope next year we can win it,but i always fear the worst in these games,even on saturday if the maynard free was paid,the eagles would have probably got it again and got us right on the siren,then again we may have got another goal,another what if.

 

[Trickster]

1979 another hard working game, but in reality they were a far better side. Very rainy conditions helped us. We actually came at them. Lost by five points (another 5 point loss). The game where Harmes had to pay an entry fee to get back into the MCG. That was horribly unfair, but we didn't really lose the game, more like we really competed strongly.

1981 again we were workmanlike as a team. Did ok. Interesting match as we got ahead by 21 points late in the third quarter but easily run down. A lesser last quarter always says to me it was good season but we werent good enough. Medium level we could have won game? Probably not. We did collect about five goals in a row to get the 21 point margin but they slammed a couple to make it only 9 points at the last change. We scored a paltry 2 points in the last quarter.





Thrown away games:
2 (1970; 1977)

Close games:

6 plus 2 draws

Can make arguments here and there but on law of averages we could or should have had minimum 5* extra flags to 7 extra flags


* includes the 2 thrown away flags

For those that like self inflicted pain our Grand finals post 1958 and we're we really in a position....

Firstly 1958, the one Grand final we won as true under dogs, Melbourne were doing well till quarter time then we somehow pulled off the great heist.

1960 look away, Melbourne dominated as expected. Do not check the scores at quarter time because there is nothing to check at all, literally nothing; then one measly goal by us to half time.

1964 an even match, yes it looked like we had it one with Gabelich and that crazy run and bounces and goal. Then from back pocket came Crompton and we were sunk. Very even us my understanding.

1966 not sure what the point is, but another classic even game. Breen what a pointless thing to do. For us that is.

1970 the dreadful game that set all the problems. Leading by 44 points at half time. McKenna getting concussion. Bad accuracy before half time didn't help either.

• One game we should have won.

1977 The drawn Grand Final. Led by 27 points at three quarter time. We actually fell behind and fought back with that mark, Ross Dunne. People forget that Shane Bond was running towards goal when the siren blew for a draw. By the way Phil Carman didn't play either Grand Final hmm.

• We should have won.

Replay they won by 27 points the same margin we led by in the last game. All we got from the replay was Phil Manassa's great running goal.

1979 another hard working game, but in reality they were a far better side. Very rainy conditions helped us. We actually came at them. Lost by five points (another 5 point loss). The game where Harmes had to pay an entry fee to get back into the MCG. That was horribly unfair, but we didn't really lose the game, more like we really competed strongly.

1980 comprehensively outplayed. We came from 5th that year and we were just a good team. Ever in it. They were so strong all over the ground.

1981 again we were workmanlike as a team. Did ok. Interesting match as we got ahead by 21 points late in the third quarter but easily run down. A lesser last quarter always says to me it was good season but we werent good enough. Medium level we could have won game? Probably not. We did collect about five goals in a row to get the 21 point margin but they slammed a couple to make it only 9 points at the last change. We scored a paltry 2 points in the last quarter.

1990 we won the flag. Celebrating time.

2002 really good tussle with Brisbane. But we, through Nathan Buckley almost won the game. Not a match we threw away or stufffed up. Very gallant and with a far less superior team to the Lions. Great pity but can't knock the application.

2003 they were just better than us, we were never in it. Not a thrown away game, but more an opportunity not taken to make it more of a contest.

2010 Drawn Grand Final. We almost threw it away. Kicked poorly and allowed them to crawl and scrape their way back. This one time, it didn't haunt us. Finally it goes our way.
Replay. We outplay them all ends up. That smother summed up our superior team work and play.
We won. Celebrate.

2011 I take a different view to others I'm sure. We played Geelong three times for three losses. Had a great season and like Richmond this year we went off the boil nearer the end. Getting punch drunk we staved off Hawthorn in an epic prelim, but Geelong pounded us in the last quarter. More wasted opportunity than throwing the game away.

2018 a game where we comprehensively won the first quarter and lost all other three quaters. Did we throw the game away? Not really. But they almost did. Be nice if we had that luck. Very brave by us and we almost pinched it. Great great great shame.

Summing up after 1958:

14 Grand Finals plus 2 Replays

2 wins
2 draws
12 losses

Thrown away games:
2 (1970; 1977)

Close games:

6 plus 2 draws

Can make arguments here and there but on law of averages we could or should have had minimum 5* extra flags to 7 extra flags


* includes the 2 thrown away flags

For those that like self inflicted pain our Grand finals post 1958 and we're we really in a position....

Firstly 1958, the one Grand final we won as true under dogs, Melbourne were doing well till quarter time then we somehow pulled off the great heist.

1960 look away, Melbourne dominated as expected. Do not check the scores at quarter time because there is nothing to check at all, literally nothing; then one measly goal by us to half time.

1964 an even match, yes it looked like we had it one with Gabelich and that crazy run and bounces and goal. Then from back pocket came Crompton and we were sunk. Very even us my understanding.

1966 not sure what the point is, but another classic even game. Breen what a pointless thing to do. For us that is.

1970 the dreadful game that set all the problems. Leading by 44 points at half time. McKenna getting concussion. Bad accuracy before half time didn't help either.

• One game we should have won.

1977 The drawn Grand Final. Led by 27 points at three quarter time. We actually fell behind and fought back with that mark, Ross Dunne. People forget that Shane Bond was running towards goal when the siren blew for a draw. By the way Phil Carman didn't play either Grand Final hmm.

• We should have won.

Replay they won by 27 points the same margin we led by in the last game. All we got from the replay was Phil Manassa's great running goal.

1979 another hard working game, but in reality they were a far better side. Very rainy conditions helped us. We actually came at them. Lost by five points (another 5 point loss). The game where Harmes had to pay an entry fee to get back into the MCG. That was horribly unfair, but we didn't really lose the game, more like we really competed strongly.

1980 comprehensively outplayed. We came from 5th that year and we were just a good team. Ever in it. They were so strong all over the ground.

1981 again we were workmanlike as a team. Did ok. Interesting match as we got ahead by 21 points late in the third quarter but easily run down. A lesser last quarter always says to me it was good season but we werent good enough. Medium level we could have won game? Probably not. We did collect about five goals in a row to get the 21 point margin but they slammed a couple to make it only 9 points at the last change. We scored a paltry 2 points in the last quarter.

1990 we won the flag. Celebrating time.

2002 really good tussle with Brisbane. But we, through Nathan Buckley almost won the game. Not a match we threw away or stufffed up. Very gallant and with a far less superior team to the Lions. Great pity but can't knock the application.

2003 they were just better than us, we were never in it. Not a thrown away game, but more an opportunity not taken to make it more of a contest.

2010 Drawn Grand Final. We almost threw it away. Kicked poorly and allowed them to crawl and scrape their way back. This one time, it didn't haunt us. Finally it goes our way.
Replay. We outplay them all ends up. That smother summed up our superior team work and play.
We won. Celebrate.

2011 I take a different view to others I'm sure. We played Geelong three times for three losses. Had a great season and like Richmond this year we went off the boil nearer the end. Getting punch drunk we staved off Hawthorn in an epic prelim, but Geelong pounded us in the last quarter. More wasted opportunity than throwing the game away.

2018 a game where we comprehensively won the first quarter and lost all other three quaters. Did we throw the game away? Not really. But they almost did. Be nice if we had that luck. Very brave by us and we almost pinched it. Great great great shame.

Summing up after 1958:

14 Grand Finals plus 2 Replays

2 wins
2 draws
12 losses

Thrown away games:
2 (1970; 1977)

Close games:

6 plus 2 draws

Can make arguments here and there but on law of averages we could or should have had minimum 5* extra flags to 7 extra flags


* includes the 2 thrown away flags

thanks, a very detailed analysis. A couple of footnotes...

1979 - we kicked first five goals in a downpour and Carlton were goalless till about 20 mins in second quarter then they kicked the last 5 in 10 mins before half time to go in even. Believe Gubby Allan was knocked out in first quarter and went off with broken jaw.

1981 - think Russell Ohlssen was knocked out in second quarter after dominating (common theme from the scum!). Led by 21 points late in third before Carlton kicked last 2. Thorold Merrett (board member or selector) proceeds to blast Ricky Barham at 3/4 time in huddle in front of all players and according to Tony Shaw it was game over after that.

We also played a lame Peter Moore in one of these grand finals after he had done his hammy a couple of weeks earlier. He kicked a goal but was limping around and his opponent was instructed to run him up and down ground.

 

[Jafo]

I'm a Tigers supporter so Ive had to get over our loss to you guys..and its not a lot of fun, but I try to look at footy objectively when the Tigers arent playing. I think you're being a bit harsh on Pendlebury. I rate him highly and although he's lost a yard this season, I dont think its terminal...its an injury that he's carried most of the season and he did a better job half injured than two of ours in the prelim- he's still one of your best, day in and day out. He carved us up in the last home and away game we played you. He's one of the reasons you've done so well. Even half fit, he's one of the best players in the AFL.

I certainly rate him as a player and probably one of our best. But 2010-2011 he was being projected as our next Brownlow hopeful and I think he’s tapered away since.

I can’t comment on the calibre of Captain and person he is internally but hard to see him taking the game by the scruff of the neck like a (dare I say it) Selwood or a Vossy, or more to his demeanour, Hird.

Maybe he would be better suited without the rigours of Captaincy like Sam Mitchell did at Hawthorn. To freshen him up.

 

[mike123]

This doesn’t make it any easier
Don’t wanna be a sore loser but with Leigh, Grant Thomas, Lingy, Carey all calling the Maynard block a definite free and then reading that WC coach thought it was play on .....

This play ultimately won the WC the game
I know lots of things didn’t go their way, or ours during the game, but this umpire play cost the result.


Post-match, Eagles coach Adam Simpson said he thought Sheed “might have actually played on” before electing to go back and kick the drop punt from a tight angle.

“It was probably a product of all the work we did after the first 20 minutes,” he said.

“So these things happen sometimes, when you miss some — not straight forward goals but some gettable goals — and then someone kicks a goal like that.

“I thought he might have actually played on … so to kick a drop punt, all I did was look at the crowd when he kicked it and then we went into a different mode in the box.”

It wasn’t a free, tour allows to protect the ball drop.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

thanks, a very detailed analysis. A couple of footnotes...

1979 - we kicked first five goals in a downpour and Carlton were goalless till about 20 mins in second quarter then they kicked the last 5 in 10 mins before half time to go in even. Believe Gubby Allan was knocked out in first quarter and went off with broken jaw.

1981 - think Russell Ohlssen was knocked out in second quarter after dominating (common theme from the scum!). Led by 21 points late in third before Carlton kicked last 2. Thorold Merrett (board member or selector) proceeds to blast Ricky Barham at 3/4 time in huddle in front of all players and according to Tony Shaw it was game over after that.

We also played a lame Peter Moore in one of these grand finals after he had done his hammy a couple of weeks earlier. He kicked a goal but was limping around and his opponent was instructed to run him up and down ground.

Peter was lame in 1981.
I like that expression lame.

Oh you are right re 1979. My young mind forgot that, they were goalless too at the first change.
How horrible, another game 5 goals up.
Horrible. That's three games we threw away then.
Funny I never remembered it like that; but you're correct.
Nasty memories.

 

[Trickster]

Peter was lame in 1981.
I like that expression lame.

Oh you are right re 1979. My young mind forgot that, they were goalless too at the first change.
How horrible, another game 5 goals up.
Horrible. That's three games we threw away then.
Funny I never remembered it like that; but you're correct.
Nasty memories.

Horrible memories. I was actually thinking that after this game. Come to think of it, we’ve lost 3 GFs after being 5 goals up, not sure if anyone has lost one in those circumstances.

 

[rhys_22]

This loss stings and it will sting for a long, long time. Since my time following Collingwood I have now seen 4 losses, 1 draw and 1 win, this is considered good for a Collingwood fan (I am only 26). I don't know how the older fans do it, particularly those that grew up between 1958-1990 (like my father).

I am so heartbroken, it's like we need absolutely everything to go right for us win it. I will definitely pay my membership next year and continue to support this club but I think I need to take a step back from footy as this has broken me to the point I am not even looking forward to next year. Much love to all my fellow woodsmen and women.

There's been 2 in my lifetime. 1 draw.4 losses. Like you say I feel bad for the older ones too. To see so many missed opportunities must be frustrating for them.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Horrible memories. I was actually thinking that after this game. Come to think of it, we’ve lost 3 GFs after being 5 goals up, not sure if anyone has lost one in those circumstances.

Hawthorn v Essendon 1984 the hawks got mowed down

 

[jonbe54]

Not everyone here is really a Collingwood supporter.

Sadly true

 

[jonbe54]

The issue that doesn’t sit well with your argument is that in each GF we’ve lost since 1960, we’ve been in winning positions in all but 3 (60, 80, 2003). So the fact we may have (or may not have had) inferior lists doesn’t wash with me. That is 9 GFs that we were in winnable positions, some ridiculously dominant, that were all lost. What GFs also don’t highlight is that in 1969 and 1973 we finished top only to bow out in straight sets and not even make the GF. So it’s great that we get to so many GFs but what I’d hope is for a 50% ratio when we’re there not 2-2-12. I suspect that’s what a lot of people are frustrated with. Granted that this team is entirely independent of all other losses but as supporters the loss hurts no matter how noble. I’m not jumping off the bandwagon or apportioning blame just lamenting with devastation that we can’t somehow turn more of these winning positions in GFs into wins.

What part of 'didn't have the personnel' is obscure for you?

We have traditionally been less talented than the GF competition and have so often overachieved for our list position.

 

[Trickster]

What part of 'didn't have the personnel' is obscure for you?

We have traditionally been less talented than the GF competition and have so often overachieved for our list position.

I just don’t agree with your ‘obscure’ opinion. Less talented or not we were in dominant positions. Would you say Hawthorn in 08 was less talented? Sydney in 12.

Quite obviously you have no informed comeback so you attack the person not the argument. Class.

How does your personnel ‘argument’ stack up in 1970 when we beat Carlton 3 of 4 times and lead by 44 points after finishing top. 1977 - up by 27 pts at 3/4 time?

Want me to go on or are you just going to re-state your claims. We may not have had better ‘lists’ in all but 2 out of the last 16 is not something that sits well with me. Kudos to you if you’re comfortable with that.

 

[Trickster]

Hawthorn v Essendon 1984 the hawks got mowed down

You’re right I knew they trailed by 4 goals at 3/4 time but they did actually lead by over 5 in second quarter.

 

[TKiL]

For those that like self inflicted pain our Grand finals post 1958 and we're we really in a position....

Firstly 1958, the one Grand final we won as true under dogs, Melbourne were doing well till quarter time then we somehow pulled off the great heist.

1960 look away, Melbourne dominated as expected. Do not check the scores at quarter time because there is nothing to check at all, literally nothing; then one measly goal by us to half time.

1964 an even match, yes it looked like we had it one with Gabelich and that crazy run and bounces and goal. Then from back pocket came Crompton and we were sunk. Very even us my understanding.

1966 not sure what the point is, but another classic even game. Breen what a pointless thing to do. For us that is.

1970 the dreadful game that set all the problems. Leading by 44 points at half time. McKenna getting concussion. Bad accuracy before half time didn't help either.

• One game we should have won.

1977 The drawn Grand Final. Led by 27 points at three quarter time. We actually fell behind and fought back with that mark, Ross Dunne. People forget that Shane Bond was running towards goal when the siren blew for a draw. By the way Phil Carman didn't play either Grand Final hmm.

• We should have won.

Replay they won by 27 points the same margin we led by in the last game. All we got from the replay was Phil Manassa's great running goal.

1979 another hard working game, but in reality they were a far better side. Very rainy conditions helped us. We actually came at them. Lost by five points (another 5 point loss). The game where Harmes had to pay an entry fee to get back into the MCG. That was horribly unfair, but we didn't really lose the game, more like we really competed strongly.

1980 comprehensively outplayed. We came from 5th that year and we were just a good team. Ever in it. They were so strong all over the ground.

1981 again we were workmanlike as a team. Did ok. Interesting match as we got ahead by 21 points late in the third quarter but easily run down. A lesser last quarter always says to me it was good season but we werent good enough. Medium level we could have won game? Probably not. We did collect about five goals in a row to get the 21 point margin but they slammed a couple to make it only 9 points at the last change. We scored a paltry 2 points in the last quarter.

1990 we won the flag. Celebrating time.

2002 really good tussle with Brisbane. But we, through Nathan Buckley almost won the game. Not a match we threw away or stufffed up. Very gallant and with a far less superior team to the Lions. Great pity but can't knock the application.

2003 they were just better than us, we were never in it. Not a thrown away game, but more an opportunity not taken to make it more of a contest.

2010 Drawn Grand Final. We almost threw it away. Kicked poorly and allowed them to crawl and scrape their way back. This one time, it didn't haunt us. Finally it goes our way.
Replay. We outplay them all ends up. That smother summed up our superior team work and play.
We won. Celebrate.

2011 I take a different view to others I'm sure. We played Geelong three times for three losses. Had a great season and like Richmond this year we went off the boil nearer the end. Getting punch drunk we staved off Hawthorn in an epic prelim, but Geelong pounded us in the last quarter. More wasted opportunity than throwing the game away.

2018 a game where we comprehensively won the first quarter and lost all other three quaters. Did we throw the game away? Not really. But they almost did. Be nice if we had that luck. Very brave by us and we almost pinched it. Great great great shame.

Summing up after 1958:

14 Grand Finals plus 2 Replays

2 wins
2 draws
12 losses

Thrown away games:
2 (1970; 1977)

Close games:

6 plus 2 draws

Can make arguments here and there but on law of averages we could or should have had minimum 5* extra flags to 7 extra flags


* includes the 2 thrown away flags

Good summary of despair etc - so near and yet so far too many times - can we do something to arrest this trend and be the club that "snags flags" instead of letting them slip from our grasp?

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Good summary of despair etc - so near and yet so far too many times - can we do something to arrest this trend and be the club that "snags flags" instead of letting them slip from our grasp?

Only win in 2019

 

[ThePhantom777]

When Sidey was getting tagged out of it we should have played him as a tagger on Shuey to break the tag.

Could have also tried Pendles at FF swapping with DeGoey.