Discussion Solutions

[CHBench]

Whilst I'm diggin' it, our situation is not unlike politics. If you want to do something really good for the future, will anyone give you a pat on the back whilst there is some short term pain?

Ledger's injury was untimely, as I'm getting the impression he would have got a gig after the NAB Cup if fit.

Ross has almost committed to playing Cripps.

Wants Stanley and Steven once they show some form and fitness.

Agree Winmar must be played soon. I still worry about his durability after last year, but that's 3 top performances in a row now.

Not so much Crock though. Whilst he kicks it as well as Stewie Dew, he weighs about as much as one of his legs. Could be a ripper though.

Archer will be great value too, but I'd really prefer that we stop kidding ourselves and let the lad play in a role that he is suited to. A 193cm ruckman who doesn't have much of a leap is just stoopid.

But all of this needs to be tempered. AFL game plans are much more complicated than in the VFL where you can chase a kick. Some just aren't ready for the information overload yet (and end up looking a little lost a the elite level).

Which makes you think, who is this whole apprenticeship policy really benefiting? A full season in the VFL is fine, but 2-3 and in Armo's case 4 years is surely past it's benefitial expiration date.

But I guess when you lay it out like you have, there is a case to be made for wrong place wrong time causing the lack of junior action in the 22. Pretty much everytime there was an opening for a younger player to stake a claim at senior level, they got struck down with injury and/or stupidity. Armo & Steven towards the end of last year. This year - Ledger's hammy, Rhys' brain, Cripps & the flu, Steven's OP/brain..

Maybe if things weren't so bumpy, who says they all wouldn't have been lining up on Friday night?

My whole post was based off wishful thinking, no way a move like that would be pulled. But i hope when the time comes, and guys like Cripps/Ledger/Steven make their way into the 22 they're given a real opportunity to show their worth, and not just shoved into a forward pocket for a week and then dumped.

 

[Squizz]

Which makes you think, who is this whole apprenticeship policy really benefiting?

A full season in the VFL is fine, but 2-3 and in Armo's case 4 years is surely past it's benefitial expiration date.

Ledger's hammy, Rhys' brain, Cripps & the flu, Steven's OP/brain.

not just shoved into a forward pocket for a week and then dumped.

I'm taking it that the policy is dead. Hasn't been proved by the selection policy yet, but it should once those names (along with Winmar) are ready.

Armo was very unlucky wth injury last year, although arguably he was the scapegoat for the loss againt Essendon. Don't want to see that again.

And yeah, don't want to see the forward pocket defensive thingy again either.

 

[goodie23]

Based on last night, there are six main things we need to work on (started as two, but thought of more as I went along):

Centre square clearances: I don't care what the stats say, we got done. Tigers were clean and quick getting it out of the middle, on the occasions we did we were not.

Delivery into the forward line: Our disposal around the ground was good, but within fifteen metres of our 50 metre arc everything kept going to hell. Bad kicks, dropped marks, dumb decisions.

Goalkicking: 5 more scoring shots. Drawn game. 'Nuff said.

When to punch, when to mark: Too many times our players had the sit, yet elected to punch instead of mark. Sometimes we did it right, but not often enough. Which ties in nicely to...

Men staying down: Too many players contesting the mark, not enough waiting for the fall of the ball. With our proclivity for punching, guess what kept happening?

Umpiring masterclass: We need to find either a current or recently retired umpire, and get him to go over all the rules and interpretations of the modern game with the entire list. I'm sick of getting the raw end of the stick with umpiring (yeah, yeah, wah wah wah deliberate rushed behind and unpaid mark, there was a lot more before that). This is one of the few things we can actually do about it.

 

[winty]

Take a step back from the abysmal umpiring (Once again, why is a Geelong supporter allowed to umpire their games? He has single handedly won them a premiership and nearly took several other matches from us in his officiating.)

I know this is off topic, but I just had to comment on this. It could be argued that if it wasn't for the St.Kilda supporter Steve McBurney umpiring in the prelim, the Saints would never have made it into the grand final. That really soft free he paid to Riewoldt at the start of the second half completely changed the momentum of the Prelim and ended up getting the Saints over the line. Of course, you'd have no trouble with that, would you Jimmy?

Not to mention that weak as water goal he gifted you at half-time the week afterwards (yes, Milburn probably shouldn't have abused the goal umpire, but how often do you see a team awarded a gift goal after an opposition has yelled at the goal umpire?).

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I know this is off topic, but I just had to comment on this. It could be argued that if it wasn't for the St.Kilda supporter Steve McBurney umpiring in the prelim, the Saints would never have made it into the grand final. That really soft free he paid to Riewoldt at the start of the second half completely changed the momentum of the Prelim and ended up getting the Saints over the line. Of course, you'd have no trouble with that, would you Jimmy?

Not to mention that weak as water goal he gifted you at half-time the week afterwards (yes, Milburn probably shouldn't have abused the goal umpire, but how often do you see a team awarded a gift goal after an opposition has yelled at the goal umpire?).

well now that you have that off your chest you can shove off.

 

[mysainters]

I think people are pretty quick to put the daggers into Lyon because after all the "little hints" he has dropped about tweaking the team, he managed to kick off the season by putting together, probably the most dour team he has ever selected, with entirely predictable results. ( Low scoring game )
In a way I'm glad we lost, maybe someing will click in that stubborn head of his.

Cripps (sick) and Ledger (hamstring) would of been ins Rd 1, unless you pick and choose the 'little hints' from Ross that suit your argument?

Nothing predictable about the first two rounds, our gameplan is entirely different to last year, however our awful skills are still very much the same.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ross talks about integrity at the selection table. Lynch and steven have to be in next week or ross has lost all integrity if you ask me. Lynch easily best on ground today for the zebras having 35+posessions, and steven was very impressive with his speed and attack.

So where do you play lynch?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

i would play him as a forward, as our backline should not be tinkered with. I feel we need another lead up forward as every kick goes to riewoldt so it might allow roo to stay closer to goal aswell. It will also be dissapointing if ross drops Archer, give the kid a chance to get used to the speed of the game

Yeah I was happy enough with Archer. Everyone would be raving about him if he'd kicked the goal in the last quarter. I'd rather keep him in than start a revolving door between him, Stanley and Johnson a week at a time.
Normally I'd say give him three , but the bye may put that to rest.
I'm pretty sure I've seen Kosi play worse games than that.

 

[Knightmare]

Liking Armitage + McEvoy, but otherwise little improvement in any of the other regulars and just a team of 15/16 who carry the team.

Would like to see Rhys Stanley, Alistair Smith, Tom Ledger and Jamie Cripps all integrated into this team. Even maybe Tommy Walsh?

Surely they would be upgrades on Peake, Koschitzke, Dawson, Ray, Gamble and so on so forth?

 

[StFly]

Liking Armitage + McEvoy, but otherwise little improvement in any of the other regulars and just a team of 15/16 who carry the team.

Would like to see Rhys Stanley, Alistair Smith, Tom Ledger and Jamie Cripps all integrated into this team. Even maybe Tommy Walsh?

Surely they would be upgrades on Peake, Koschitzke, Dawson, Ray, Gamble and so on so forth?

I assume Gamble was picked up primarily on the back of Cahill not pressing much, Lynch blossoming more as a defender and the lack then of roaming forward types dwindled to very tall or very small. An Upgrade on Gamble then would be something like Goddard filling that role with someone like Cripps filling his role around the ground.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Liking Armitage + McEvoy, but otherwise little improvement in any of the other regulars and just a team of 15/16 who carry the team.

Would like to see Rhys Stanley, Alistair Smith, Tom Ledger and Jamie Cripps all integrated into this team. Even maybe Tommy Walsh?

Surely they would be upgrades on Peake, Koschitzke, Dawson, Ray, Gamble and so on so forth?

I'd love to see Kosi come back in through the VFL, simply because I think people would be amazed at how much he would dominate at that level, compared to the kids we saw today.

 

[Kozivan]

based on VFL performance there is no reason stanley should get a game for the saints just yet, looks well behind the pace. Lynch looked amazing today, as did steven. Promising signs from johnson too at times.

 

[sainter]

Liking Armitage + McEvoy, but otherwise little improvement in any of the other regulars and just a team of 15/16 who carry the team.

Would like to see Rhys Stanley, Alistair Smith, Tom Ledger and Jamie Cripps all integrated into this team. Even maybe Tommy Walsh?

Surely they would be upgrades on Peake, Koschitzke, Dawson, Ray, Gamble and so on so forth?

Reasonable post until Dawson's name popped up and it became obvious that you don't actually watch us play and just regurgitate what other people have to say.

For reasons that have already been outlined, the players you would like to see aren't playing for a host of reasons. Ledger tore his hamstring in the NAB Cup and has not played since, Cripps was ill last week when on the verge of selection, Stanley's form has not been up to scratch, etc.

We are looking for an injection of youth as well but please be realistic.

 

[Big Carl]

Cripps (sick) and Ledger (hamstring) would of been ins Rd 1, unless you pick and choose the 'little hints' from Ross that suit your argument?

Nothing predictable about the first two rounds, our gameplan is entirely different to last year, however our awful skills are still very much the same.

At last someone with a rational comment!
No doubt they have changed the way they play, 50 plus inside 50's is evidence of that.
The real problem is their decision making and execution which borders on pathetic.
Interesting that over the past 3 or 4 years our kicking skills have been o/k (passable) with the slow tempo game style passing the ball around. Now that we are trying to move it on quicker it has highlighted the fact that we don't have many elite users of the ball especially on the run (Dalsanto excluded).
Our goal kicking is in line with our general field kicking!


PS for all those Kosi knockers, he plays both games and no doubt we win both......would have given us that long kicking bail out option and stopped them triple teaming Nick

 

[Knightmare]

Reasonable post until Dawson's name popped up and it became obvious that you don't actually watch us play and just regurgitate what other people have to say.

For reasons that have already been outlined, the players you would like to see aren't playing for a host of reasons. Ledger tore his hamstring in the NAB Cup and has not played since, Cripps was ill last week when on the verge of selection, Stanley's form has not been up to scratch, etc.

We are looking for an injection of youth as well but please be realistic.

The point I'm making is your list only has 15 good players. You probably have the leagues best 15, and by a fair way:
Hayes
Riewoldt
Goddard
Montagna
Dal Santo
Fisher
Gram
Gilbert
Gwilt
Blake
McEvoy
Armitage
Jones
Milne
Schneider

But being a game of 22 players, you need more than depth quality players which is all anyone else on your list is. Some role players who can every now and then contribute, but hardly any who can consistently produce against high quality opposition.

Dawson isn't an awful defender, but wouldn't want him lining up on a Jonathan Brown, I feel he has been as successful as he has been as St Kilda because he has quality defenders around him who make him look better, with plenty of support. Certainly in a weak side like a Brisbane, Port Adelaide or Gold Coast would get smashed weekly. So personally I would class him as a depth guy, like all the others who currently fill out the best 22 because he isn't a particularly high level defender.

Can't say I do watch St Kilda regularly. I don't, don't have time to watch every team every week, but I do every now and then certainly. Assuming healthy as I mentioned A.Smith, Stanley, Ledger, Cripps, Walsh and Lynch should all be integrated into this side because they are all talented and are all (when healthy) better than any of the other players filling out the best 22 at present both long and and now in my view. Doesn't mean next round they all have to come in, as you mention that is not possible. But as soon as practical certainly would be my recommendation to integrate these players.

 

[Squizz]

Men staying down: Too many players contesting the mark, not enough waiting for the fall of the ball. With our proclivity for punching, guess what kept happening?

Ross hates guys sitting on the outer, waiting for someone else to make a 1%er.

He'd probably be able to deal with multiple guys going up in a pack, as long its not a small defender doing it instead of marking his man.

What would make him furious is the amount of times we allowed the ball to spill over the back of the pack - he'd be asking how this is possible if we have 3 up going the spoil.

I noticed the boys doing it in the Zeb game too.

This is one of Zac's positives - he doesn't tend to fluff a spoil.

 

[sainter]

The point I'm making is your list only has 15 good players. You probably have the leagues best 15, and by a fair way:
Hayes
Riewoldt
Goddard
Montagna
Dal Santo
Fisher
Gram
Gilbert
Gwilt
Blake
McEvoy
Armitage
Jones
Milne
Schneider

But being a game of 22 players, you need more than depth quality players which is all anyone else on your list is. Some role players who can every now and then contribute, but hardly any who can consistently produce against high quality opposition.

Dawson isn't an awful defender, but wouldn't want him lining up on a Jonathan Brown, I feel he has been as successful as he has been as St Kilda because he has quality defenders around him who make him look better, with plenty of support. Certainly in a weak side like a Brisbane, Port Adelaide or Gold Coast would get smashed weekly. So personally I would class him as a depth guy, like all the others who currently fill out the best 22 because he isn't a particularly high level defender.

Can't say I do watch St Kilda regularly. I don't, don't have time to watch every team every week, but I do every now and then certainly. Assuming healthy as I mentioned A.Smith, Stanley, Ledger, Cripps, Walsh and Lynch should all be integrated into this side because they are all talented and are all (when healthy) better than any of the other players filling out the best 22 at present both long and and now in my view. Doesn't mean next round they all have to come in, as you mention that is not possible. But as soon as practical certainly would be my recommendation to integrate these players.

I don't think you'll have any arguments here that we need to integrate some young players into the team. We introduced Archer last week and I think we'll see more first gamers in the coming weeks.

I still disagree with your assessment of Dawson but you've at least qualified your opinion. I think people still compare the Zac of today to the same one that was thrown to the wolves by Clarkson 5 years ago. And then you get others who see him get exposed by the occasional long kick over the top but don't understand that he actually plays 5 metres in front of his opponent and prevents him from getting the ball this way. He's not a Rutten/Glass/Merrett type. If he played somebody like Travis Cloke the way these guys would he'd be smashed. He's a solid defender that does remarkably well in one-on-one situations.

You left out Jack Steven who I would expect along with Cripps and Lynch would be on the cusp of selection for next week.

 

[Fehring]

i would play him as a forward, as our backline should not be tinkered with. I feel we need another lead up forward as every kick goes to riewoldt so it might allow roo to stay closer to goal aswell. It will also be dissapointing if ross drops Archer, give the kid a chance to get used to the speed of the game

As I said in another thread, if Lynch is picked to play in the forward line on the basis of his (excellent) game yesterday in the backline, it's a disgrace. The way to earn a game in our forward line is to play in the Sandy forward line. Not Lynch's fault of course, but picking a bloke to play forward on the basis of his great game off half back is madness.

As you say, our backline should not be tinkered with, so no game for Lynch.

Reasonable post until Dawson's name popped up and it became obvious that you don't actually watch us play and just regurgitate what other people have to say.

How people continue to undersell Zach after his awesome finals series and great start to this year is unfathomable. The man is sensational.

 

[StFly]

As you say, our backline should not be tinkered with, so no game for Lynch.

Brings up a point of interest for me, you read several opinions of us being too defensive a team and having too many defenders and yet when it comes time to suggest changes or postulate on who might be on the chopping bloke people are loathe to remove a defender because they've been such a dominant unit. So you end up with midfielders or forwards who are dropped in favour of what people deem as "better" alternatives when the simplest of explanations one could draw is "too defensive? Drop a defender".

Now, usually this then comes to the tune of the usual whipping boys like Raph or Dempster but then you come with the situation like round 1 where we frankly couldn't be bothered so Blake (whom did not have a suitable line up int he back) lined up at CHF and was completely ineffectual, if not him it might have been Dawson, or Chips and would anyone then be saying to drop them if they failed at being an offensive option instead of purely defensive? You then have someone like Gilbert who simply doesn't want to or Gwilt who seemed to have reinvent himself after his forays forward so do we not drop them as well?

You then remain at all the defensive options you had previously so you drop an attacking option and then complain that you don't have enough attacking options available.

Our backline should be tinkered with, replacement, not sure at this stage but to invite stagnation is to basically invite a loss.

 

[Fehring]

Brings up a point of interest for me, you read several opinions of us being too defensive a team and having too many defenders and yet when it comes time to suggest changes or postulate on who might be on the chopping bloke people are loathe to remove a defender because they've been such a dominant unit. So you end up with midfielders or forwards who are dropped in favour of what people deem as "better" alternatives when the simplest of explanations one could draw is "too defensive? Drop a defender".

Now, usually this then comes to the tune of the usual whipping boys like Raph or Dempster but then you come with the situation like round 1 where we frankly couldn't be bothered so Blake (whom did not have a suitable line up int he back) lined up at CHF and was completely ineffectual, if not him it might have been Dawson, or Chips and would anyone then be saying to drop them if they failed at being an offensive option instead of purely defensive? You then have someone like Gilbert who simply doesn't want to or Gwilt who seemed to have reinvent himself after his forays forward so do we not drop them as well?

You then remain at all the defensive options you had previously so you drop an attacking option and then complain that you don't have enough attacking options available.

Our backline should be tinkered with, replacement, not sure at this stage but to invite stagnation is to basically invite a loss.

I actually agree with what you're saying, but the obvious tinkering is to drop one of our tall defenders but replace them with a midfielder (we effectively have a back seven, eight or even nine at the moment). So, really, you'd have to drop two defenders before Lynch gets a look in.

So, still, no game for Lynch.

 

[Squizz]

Kicking skills has been an issue coming out of defence, so if Lynchy is in better form than other VFL options (I'm just saying) then we should be able to juggle things around.

Dempster hasn't been in the best touch.

Gilbo can play on the wing if need be.

Sam Fish would be a terrific 3rd tall if persevered with.

The fact is that we have defensive options aplenty with Lynch, Walsh and Simpkin - along with trying to find spots for Blake, Gwilt, Clarke and Dawson.

Time to start playing the game from the centre of the ground rather than from our backline.

Given we are playing Essendon this week, pacier types such as Schneider, Smith and Steven seem the best options though.

 

[krusden]

Dempster hasn't been in the best touch.

no, he certainly hasn't.

along with jones, goddard and montagna who won;t be remembering his 150th fondly.

 

[karmafree]

So we have settled over the weekend and have 2 points instead of the 8 I marked in at the start of the year. Why? Left the 6 at the selection table.
As a team during the home and away season you can carry 4 dud players if your elite are good enough and still make the top 4. During finals you can carry 2. GF day none. This has been StKilda over the last few seasons.
We simply cannot have a team with, Blake Baker Mcqualter, Dempster Jones Clarke Gilbert Peake Gamble all in it. You are carrying too many. Playing at their best they are good players. On average that is one in every 4 games. Bit like Mark Waugh give him enough chances and he will score a century, usually when it is not required.

I mean how would you like to be Dawson or Gwilt on the full back line watching the comic trio of Clarke Dempster and Gilbert trying to repel an attack:

Clarke: "Wheres the headlights, quick, I have to look dazed and stunned.What, was I supposed to go for that? Shit. Quick give me the ball lets see who I can put under pressure and make look worse than me. Wheres the circle I have to start running around in circles"
Dempster: "Me, you mean me, me. Wheres Clarke lets see if I can blame him, or at least share the blame. Shit I'm tired, am I tired, yeah I think I'm tired. Lets go for a run on the spot and pretend to chase a player to see if I'm tied. Defiantly after that I know I am tired. Wheres Clarke?"
Gilbert: " I can tackle you know. Did I tell you I can tackle. I have a league background and you know I am the best tackler. Ahh!!! whats this in my hands, its a football what do I do with it?"

The game today is so much based upon turnovers. Look at our lot, who turns over the ball with regularity? Jones Gilbert Dempster Blake Clarke McQualter.

What have we learned from the two games to date. I would say nothing. The players mentioned have performed to expectation. The solution is to replace them in a timely manner and give the replacements a decent go as much as the incumbents at least.

Surely Mcqualter is gone for good, next must be Dempster. Clarke, Blake and if Gamble doesn't start pulling his finger out him to, to follow in secession. With Lenny gone this is 6 changes enough places to try the youth. Who? Frankly I don't care. I don't know the form or injury list. Put them in gradually and systematically. You reward their efforts and start the weeding out process of those who aren't going to deliver us a flag.

 

[Kildonan]

Dempster hasn't been in the best touch.

no, he certainly hasn't.

along with jones, goddard and montagna who won;t be remembering his 150th fondly.

Most of our senior players have had a limited preseason.
Expect them to improve every week. It is a long season.
Quarterhorses do not win Melbourne Cups.

 

[krusden]

Most of our senior players have had a limited preseason.
Expect them to improve every week. It is a long season.
Quarterhorses do not win Melbourne Cups.

that's true K, but clint jones looks a shadow of the player he has been, BJ was either held by deledio or slightly injured (commentator suggested an ankle issue?) and monty floats in and out sometimes - he had a fantastic 2009 and has dropped off a bit since.
I am unsure whether clint was tagging someone but I sighted him (on TV) rarely and when I did he looked well "off" like he was as many others are "out of form" like ross says.
Gilbert looks OK, but his decision making made him look as fast as slow-setting concrete (IIRC 2 holding the ball decisions) although the mis-firing forward line may have had something to do with that!