Stats questions

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Footy starts today, March 14. How many times has a VFL/AFL season started this early?

EDIT: researched it myself
March 8 - 2000 (Olympics Year)
March 14 - 2014
March 20 - 2008
March 21 - 1992
March 22 - 1991, 2013
March 24 - 2005, 2011, 2012
 
Was watching the WC v Pies 94 QF on Chooseday Night Football and it occurred to me that the game involved (currently) 29 consecutive seasons of Collingwood coaches - Matthews and Malthouse as coaches, Shaw and Buckley as players.

I was trying to think of longer consecutive streaks in the same game and came across a 1994 essendon vs Richmond game that has 34 seasons of Bomber coaches - sheedy coaching, Knights/hird/Thompson all playing

Are there any other games that can beat either of these two?
 
Last edited:
Lenny29 said:
Was watching the WC v Pies 94 QF on Chooseday Night Football and it occurred to me that the game involved (currently) 29 consecutive seasons of Collingwood coaches - Matthews and Malthouse as coaches, Shaw and Buckley as players.

I was trying to think of longer consecutive streaks in the same game and came across a 1994 essendon vs Richmond game that has 34 seasons of Bomber coaches - sheedy coaching, Knights/hird/Thompson all playing

Are there any other games that can beat either of these two?
Click to expand...

This match would take some beating.

Jock McHale (coach)/Phonse Kyne/Bob Rose/Neil Mann/Ron Richards combination which adds up to 62 years (1912-1974) and 1272 games as Collingwood Coach.

There's the whole intrigue surrounding the 1930 Grand Final (which McHale wasn't at due to ill health) that might reduce it by 18 seasons, but even then... 44 years still would take some beating.
 

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We're preparing a dedicated 'Brownlow Medal' page for our website, as well as calculating, in addition to aggregate totals, an 'adjusted votes per game' figure for every V/AFL player (1924-), and I'm seeking some feedback from stats guys for the best methodology to use to compare Brownlow votes received in different voting eras.

I'm thinking of following the methodology devised by Peter Blair in his 1997 book 'History of the Brownlow Medal' (p.143) but am wondering whether or not we can make it more 'accurate' for comparison purposes. I'll include Blair's explanation below and then make a few further comments of my own.

An attempt to rank players from different voting systems [Brownlow]
For two seasons (1976 and 1977) twelve votes were awarded each match instead of the customary six. In this section, and purely for purposes of comparison, I have halved the votes received by the relevant players in those two years.

For seasons 1924 to 1930, when only ‘best-afield’ votes were given (one vote per match), the ‘solution’ is nowhere near as simple. Firstly, and this is the easy part, the single vote has to be upgraded to a three. Second, some allowance should be made for the fact that players gaining more than the occasional best-on-ground nearly always receive votes for being second-best or third-best afield, the question is ‘how much’?

A count of the votes received by the top ten (or eleven in the case of a tie for tenth) in the previous ten seasons (1986-1995) showed that out of the 1614 votes they received 1002 were for 334 best-on-ground votes. Thus for each ‘three-vote’ which players were given, they received-on average-an extra 1.8 (612 divided by 334) votes.

I have therefore calculated approximate career-totals for players from the single-vote years by allocating them 4.8 votes for each single vote they actually received.

Under this scheme, ‘Carji’ Greeves, who was awarded 29 best-on-ground votes, receives 139 [adjusted] votes (29 times 4.8). Ivor Warne-Smith, who gained 25 votes before 1931, and 3 after, received 123, and so on.

Our proposed 'Adjusted votes per game' for each player, will exclude the games a player played before 1924, during the war years (1942-45) when no votes were awarded, and also finals matches, when no votes are awarded, and, unless we can come up with something better, use Blair's methodology of times 4.8 for single vote-winner in the 1924-30 era, and halving totals from 1976-77.

That would be the easy way to go. Alternatively, we can try to hone the above calculations to make them as close to the standardized 3-2-1 system as is statistically possible.

For example, from a stats point of view, is the extra 1.8 times calculated from enough years (1986-96) to make it representative or should we all all available years' data? Should we also be factoring in a small blanket allowance for all players in the one vote for best-on-ground era (1924-1930) who didn't receive any votes when in fact they may have one or two vote games under the 3-2-1 system, while should we also we calculating a small deduction from players who received minor votes in the 1976-77 period, as they would not have received any votes at all under the 3-2-1 system?

I hope this makes sense!
 
I decided not to get too complicated so just the simple v*3 and v*0.5 for me (also they're a relatively small subsection of the overall picture). The 4.8 is a concept, but necessarily omits accounting for minor votes for everyone except the major vote getters.

Also, Brownlow votes were withheld in some rounds that clashed with an interstate game. I believe Ron has catalogued which rounds, but I've never got around to doing anything about it.
 
*Paul* said:
I decided not to get too complicated so just the simple v*3 and v*0.5 for me (also they're a relatively small subsection of the overall picture). The 4.8 is a concept, but necessarily omits accounting for minor votes for everyone except the major vote getters.

Also, Brownlow votes were withheld in some rounds that clashed with an interstate game. I believe Ron has catalogued which rounds, but I've never got around to doing anything about it.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul. The simple approach is often the best, and easiest too, but I'm just trying to tweat the stats enough to get closer to a level playing field for comparison purposes. Easier said than done.

But I'm interested to see Ron's list because that would have a material impact [albeit small] on an adjusted votes figure.
 
australianfootball said:
A count of the votes received by the top ten (or eleven in the case of a tie for tenth) in the previous ten seasons (1986-1995) showed that out of the 1614 votes they received 1002 were for 334 best-on-ground votes. Thus for each ‘three-vote’ which players were given, they received-on average-an extra 1.8 (612 divided by 334) votes.
Click to expand...
Does this ratio change over time?
 
SJ said:
Re: Post your stats questions here

How many times have two Brownlow Medallists debuted in the same match for the same team?

One example is Bartel and Ablett, Geelong v Essendon, Round 1 2002.
Click to expand...
Ron The Bear said:
Re: Post your stats questions here
Only time it's happened.
Click to expand...
Has it happened for opposing teams?
 
UpForGrabs said:
UpForGrabs said: ↑
No. Three guys came close though (if you take "close" to mean that they won the two medals only a year apart)

Williams (Brownlow 1994, Norm Smith 1995)
Black (Brownlow 2002, Norm Smith 2003)
Judd (Brownlow 2004, Norm Smith 2005)

Since the Norm Smith's only been around since 1979, we're dealing with a relatively small selection.

In the WAFL, however, the Sandover/Simpson Medal double has been performed five times since 1945 (when the Simpson Medal was first awarded for BOG in the GF):

1946: John Loughridge (WP)
1968: Barry Cable (P)
2001: Ryan Turnbull (EP)
2005: Toby McGrath (SF)
2010: Andrew Krakouer (SD)

Damn. Forgot about Buckley!
Click to expand...

A bit late, but Buckley also did the Jack Oatey/Magarey double in 1992, the only SANFL player to do so (the Jack Oatey medal has only been awarded since 1981 though)
 
australianfootball said:
Thanks Paul. The simple approach is often the best, and easiest too, but I'm just trying to tweat the stats enough to get closer to a level playing field for comparison purposes. Easier said than done.

But I'm interested to see Ron's list because that would have a material impact [albeit small] on an adjusted votes figure.
Click to expand...

I've never seen a list published. My list is based on

- total Brownlow votes awarded for the season, e.g. votes = (h&a matches * 6) - 72 indicates votes weren't awarded for two 6-match rounds
- presence of a stand-in coach
- absence of key players (in lieu of team lists for Victorian matches)
- dates of Victorian interstate matches

1929 R10 & 11
1932 R14
1933 R15
1935 R10
1936 R14
1937 R16
1938 R11
1939 R11
1941 R11
1946 R14
1947 R16
1948 R15
1949 R13 & 14
1950 R14
1951 R10
1952 R8 & 13
1953 R12
1954 R13
1955 R13
1956 R10
1957 R10 & 11
1959 R12
1960 R10
1961 R13
1962 R12
1963 R10
1964 R8
1965 R11
1966 R8 & 9
1967 R11
1968 R12
1969 R10
1971 R16
1972 R12
1973 R6
1974 R9 & 15
1975 R14
1976 R4
1977 R13
 
Lenny29 said:
Are there any other games that can beat either of these two?
Click to expand...

In terms of games coached (not necessarily consecutive), the records for each club are:

234 Adelaide Ad v Ge 1997 R13/SF, 1998 R5
466 Brisbane Br v Co 1994 R14 1995 R15
907 Carlton Ca v Ha 1967 R2
1438 Collingwood - 44 matches 1912-14
1012 Essendon Es v Fi 1950 R1/12
226 Fremantle Es v Me 1984 R4/14 1985 R9/20
801 Geelong 1932 R12
66 Gold Coast - any game involving Guy McKenna
44 Greater Western Sydney - any game involving Kevin Sheedy
842 Hawthorn Ha v NM 1989 R2
688 Melbourne Me v Fi 1937 R10 1938 R14 1939 R7/18
693 North Melbourne NM v Ha 1974 R22/QF/PF
325 Port Adelaide PA v Ge 2001 R5
707 Richmond Ri v Me 1939 R12 1940 R13/SF/GF Ri v Fi 1940 R5/16
581 St.Kilda St v Ha 1981 R20
428 Sydney Sy v NM 1997 R13 1998 R8
569 West Coast WC v WB 1988 R5/22 1989 R12/17
644 Western Bulldogs WB v Co 1952 R6 1953 R7/18 1955 R12
574 Fitzroy Fi v Ca 1957 R17
72 University - 219 games 1900-1920
 

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RobbieGray17 said:
Ok, I just found that stat, on allthestats Is there anwyay of doing a search by date. Its kinda irrelevant getting results for least handballs, and getting stupid kicking games from 1920s.

196 is really low. Wonder what happened there.
Click to expand...
Is All The Stats working?
 
Grant Birchall and Liam Shiels' last 17 games have been wins. They join Tony Hall, John Kennedy Jnr, Chris Langford and Kel Moore in 2nd place all time for Hawthorn, behind Dermott Brereton who played 24 games in a row without a loss.

What are the records overall?

--

Isaac Smith is currently undefeated in 11 games at York Park. As it stands this is the best undefeated total in the books for Hawthorn at any ground. Next best is 9, also current runs, shared by Burgoyne and Breust who are undefeated in 9 games at Docklands. These guys may spoils their runs with losses in the future but Max Bailey retired with 8-0 locked in at York Park.

I imagine Geelong would have some big undefeated records at KP - what are the best undefeated records at different grounds?
 
Max Rooke and Cameron Ling had 27 wins in a row , Bartel 26, J.Selwood 25, Bob Pratt's 25 in 1935/36 the first non-Geelong 2007/08. 6 others share Brereton's 24.

15 or more without loss
28 Dinny Kelleher Lake Oval
16 Norm Oliver Victoria Park
16 Jim Reid Lake Oval
15 Taylor Hunt Kardinia Park
15 Charlie Parsons Princes Park
 
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Ron The Bear said:
I've never seen a list published. My list is based on

- total Brownlow votes awarded for the season, e.g. votes = (h&a matches * 6) - 72 indicates votes weren't awarded for two 6-match rounds
- presence of a stand-in coach
- absence of key players (in lieu of team lists for Victorian matches)
- dates of Victorian interstate matches

1929 R10 & 11
1932 R14
1933 R15
1935 R10
1936 R14
1937 R16
1938 R11
1939 R11
1941 R11
1946 R14
1947 R16
1948 R15
1949 R13 & 14
1950 R14
1951 R10
1952 R8 & 13
1953 R12
1954 R13
1955 R13
1956 R10
1957 R10 & 11
1959 R12
1960 R10
1961 R13
1962 R12
1963 R10
1964 R8
1965 R11
1966 R8 & 9
1967 R11
1968 R12
1969 R10
1971 R16
1972 R12
1973 R6
1974 R9 & 15
1975 R14
1976 R4
1977 R13
Click to expand...


Thanks for sharing that list Ron. I had no idea that BVs were not awarded for those games. It complicates the adjusted BV per player calculation even further!
 
australianfootball said:
Thanks for sharing that list Ron. I had no idea that BVs were not awarded for those games. It complicates the adjusted BV per player calculation even further!
Click to expand...

It does. My method is simply to include a column with a 1 or 0 for each record (i.e. match played) in my player stats table. It's easy to take the sum of these values for use in votes-per-match calculations.
 

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