Analysis Strategy and Game Plan

[eastfreo75]

Worst thing is JL doesn’t even seem to recognise it’s a problem (and it’s not just kick outs it’s defensive 50 rebounds in general). He lists all these other issues which tbh are valid but completely ignores this.

There was one point yesterday where the commentators pointed out that we’d had 3 inside fifties from 30+ rebound fifties. That’s an absolute disgrace.

I’m not sure I can remember conceding a goal because of a genuinely poor kicking error either so. It’s not like it’s just skills based - in fact I don’t think it’s even 10% bad skills. It’s lack of confidence and a game plan issue.

I think we’re trying to give ourselves time to set up our own structures tbh but it’s also allowing the opposition to do the same. It means we’re in a better spot defensively if it comes back in but eventually the dam wall is going to break if you’re just defending.

I was 50/50 on JLo until I went to final against Collingwood in 2022.

This is what I viewed in disbelief.
1. Centre Ball forward set up - 3 smalls on the 50 and 3 talls depth. He played that for the whole game. What was an unfunny joke was that Collingwood players went to the spots before our players did. Collingwood had 3 or 4 set ups.
2. From kick outs we bombed it long to contest on the wing. Only twice we played on and hit a leading target.
3. Collingwood had two players on the fat side keeping width while had a grand total of none. 18 players on the skinny side doesn’t help your ball movement.

He lost me on that day.

 

[pK75]

There's discussion happening in the JLO thread about strategy and game plan - I was surprised this didn't have its own thread as I think it deserves one. The whole AFL world is currently in a copy Collingwood mode, but you can't beat an opponent at their own game, it's usually a failing strategy. So what's going to happen in 2024?

I'm not in the AFL industry, but let's try to understand what's going on as regular punters. There are four ways in AFL in which to score, which I'll combine into two:

1. Scores from stoppage (let's combine this with scores from centre bounce); and
2. Scores from turnover (again, let's include scores from kick-outs, which are slightly different).

I combine these into just two scoring avenues as it simplifies the strategy discussion. Obviously, every team aims to maximise scores from every source, what tends to get lost in translation is that teams prioritise and train to win through one of them. There's many more layers to winning, e.g. in game tactics, who's playing on who, one off plays (e.g. Cox playing as a forward defender on Sicily last year). There's always an underlying strategy though, and I think this is what many struggle to understand, resulting in frustration when they don't hear what they want to hear from their club.

The head coach must select a strategy that complements the squad he has. If we look at Collingwood, we see that McRae has clearly put together a game plan where they win via score from turnover. That means they have excellent intercept ability, they intercept in areas where they can quickly counter attack, and they have the players that support the plan and can slingshot the ball rapidly. Think of Moore and Howe as the key interceptors, then they have De Goey, Crisp, and the Daicos brothers cutting teams up with power and pace through the middle. In essence, if you lose the contest to Collingwood, you've already lost the game, as they're beating you with their secondary priority. If you assume they're the best at scoring from turnover, then the only hope you have to beat them is to heavily dominate contest and play fast out of stoppage to prevent them from getting the team defense set up.

If you look at the 2nd team from last season, Brisbane, who are much more similar to Freo, they play the strategy of dominating contest, they have Neale, Dunkley et. al to win the ball at the source. They then focus on holding the ball in their forward line and forcing stoppage after stoppage. You may say, but they have Andrews and Coleman etc. to play the turnover game, well yes exactly, they have the ability to play both styles well, but they're definitely a contest first team. If your team can dominate at both scoring avenues, then you're going to be in premiership contention, as we see with Brisbane and Collingwood.

So to Freo, break down what the club has been banging on about since forever. We're a contest first team. Our priority is going to be to dominate stoppage. We have on paper a strong midfield unit, Darcy as a dominant tap ruckman feeding Fyfe, Serong, Brayshaw, Johnson, Young etc. This is also why we haven't valued wings as highly as a team that prioritises scoring from turnover. We actually want to have the additional inside mid on the short side to support winning the contest, and a fat side winger who will sacrifice his game some weeks, running up and down the field tirelessly. This is what Acres did brilliantly in 2022, he ran all day and provided an option on the fat side. That will be Sharp's job this year. But this position does not make or break our game plan, first and foremost, we must win stoppage.

Does this mean that Freo will take no risk trying to score from turnover? No it doesn't. All they're saying is that scoring from turnover is not the primary objective.

In summary, don't expect us to play like Collingwood. If we try to do that with the team we have, you'll get a worse result than what we saw last season. We don't have the midfield or wings to play like that. If we do well this year it will be because we're scoring from centre bounce like we did in 2022. That's what is so exciting about having Fyfe, Young, and Johnson looking powerful, we might just get back what made us so good in 2022. If you want to beat teams like Collingwood, you have to beat them at the contest and keep the ball out of their hands. Try to score as much as you can from centre bounce, and if you don't manage that, play in such a way that if you turn it over, they can't smash you on the rebound. Turn it over in safe areas.

End of essay haha.

Great post, we are definitely a contested team and play well against other contested teams, Geelong, Dees and even Brisbane even though we lost both games against them last year.
We really struggled against the good turnover teams though, when they bring the elite pressure our players go to water and the defensive structures fall apart, which leads to us going into our shells and being even more conservative.
The long kick outs down the line are so frustrating because we are going too close the the corridor which means if we lose the contest the opposition can flick it to the middle of the ground far to easily. If we want to do that dump out of the D50 it needs to go far closer to the boundary line so if we don’t win it, it either goes out of bounds for a stoppage (which we should back ourselves to win) or the opposition are forced wide when they come back into their F50 which is easier to defend.
It’s almost like we’ve decided that bombing it 50m to a contest just next to the centre square is our idea of being more attacking.

 

[blue shark]

If you watched the game you’d say this:

1. Handball into traffic making it hard to escape congestion.
2. In the backline, mark the ball, then do anything you can to slow ball movement down. Never, ever, run the ball, take a risk, kick the ball on a sharp angle to open up play…Port might get the ball back…instead we can give them the ball back later and let them run the length of the field.
3. From kick outs, just kick to the one spot on the left wing/flank so Port know where to go.
4. When kicking the ball past the halfway line kick straight to the two key backs after playing slow all the way up the field. (See plan for McGovern and Barrass filed under “hey this worked so good in the past, lets do it some more!”

In short do everything possible to give the ball back to the opposition and give us no chance of scoring in any free and flowing way

Chapman is a bigger loss than most want to admit, then you take Young out. 2 guys who can defend and attack.
It’s why Draper who is so raw looks to be a find.
Opposition only have to lock down on Clark and it’s back to slow and steady.
It’s why we need to use our surplus of mids on the flanks to rotate rather than
sit on the pine.
Honestly does anyone know who our wingers are yet?
Aish is Mr fixit, Johnson could be wing/Mid/halfback, and Young needs to rotate too.
Erasmus is wasted as the sub, our forward line lacks contested players if the 3
Something games Emmett isn’t available.
As for the smaller mids you need to get the balance right or our contested ball
game is over.
Brayshaw, Serong,need to be dual players the same as we see with Switta.
Maybe that doesn’t mean forward only option?
Brayshaw’s brother got pushed to a wing, under our system it’s mid or bench.
Our one trick in 2022 worked on most teams in 2022, it’s now 2024 and we are
still a work in progress?
Conservative and predictable be prepared to not be entertained.
As for the kick ins Ryan is not the guy you want delivering the ball period.
If he played under Ross he wouldn’t kick at all, unless it’s 15m angled and
quick.

 

[apuchar]

If you watched the game you’d say this:

1. Handball into traffic making it hard to escape congestion.
2. In the backline, mark the ball, then do anything you can to slow ball movement down. Never, ever, run the ball, take a risk, kick the ball on a sharp angle to open up play…Port might get the ball back…instead we can give them the ball back later and let them run the length of the field.
3. From kick outs, just kick to the one spot on the left wing/flank so Port know where to go.
4. When kicking the ball past the halfway line kick straight to the two key backs after playing slow all the way up the field. (See plan for McGovern and Barrass filed under “hey this worked so good in the past, lets do it some more!”

In short do everything possible to give the ball back to the opposition and give us no chance of scoring in any free and flowing way

We Don't seem to have players, especially in the backline, that have the confidence to make a decision while on the move. So that stop and wait for a little dinky kick option or eventually just bomb it down the line..

Yes it had Barass, McGovern wrtten all over it. Not to mention dropping it on Walters head in the 50 all day against a taller opponent.

Over handball. Many times the player with the ball could have run off and instead chose to handball back into congestion. We haven't found the correct balance.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Much praise for starting this thread.
Reading other threads with post after post of disappointments and finger pointing gets a bit tiring when no analysis of cause is being offered.

My belief has been that when Freo have looked good under JL it has been on the back of some good running and positive forward movement. Over the last few seasons I have seen a strong correlation with our wins and our running stats. That is, when we outperform the opposition with run, we generally win and look good doing so.

Now I come from the school of contested football so it's sometimes been hard for me to appreciate the running game plan.
But that running game plan also appears to be closely tied to our cattle on the park. Players like Walker and Noddy aren't high contested players that I usually like, but they offered plenty in games when we relied on quick breaks from turnovers.

Now come Friday nights game and I was frustrated as all heck thinking we now have no game plan. But I also need to check myself because we had a team missing most of our best athletic runners. When we aren't running forward strongly, our midfield looks horrible. We handpass too often and mostly backwards to players under pressure. When we are looking good, we seem to have a greater focus of handpassing forward or to players on the run. Fyfe is absolutely brilliant at creating these forward handpasses and he will be vitally important in the midfield (fitness depending).

The other excuse I offer JL is we have continued to lose our athletic runners from our squad.
While many of our departures have not been A graders, they have been vitally important to our run and carry game plan.

Our first game against Brisbane will tell us plenty. If we play a contested footy style game against them and we fail to out run them, then I will be at a loss as to what JL is trying to achieve.

 

[freo1997]

We Don't seem to have players, especially in the backline, that have the confidence to make a decision while on the move. So that stop and wait for a little dinky kick option or eventually just bomb it down the line..

Yes it had Barass, McGovern wrtten all over it. Not to mention dropping it on Walters head in the 50 all day against a taller opponent.

Over handball. Many times the player with the ball could have run off and instead chose to handball back into congestion. We haven't found the correct balance.

Wagner is that man!

If I could I would put together a Wagner off half back highlights reel.

 

[arsesmart]

Wagner is that man!

If I could I would put together a Wagner off half back highlights reel.

Really? You might have to edit out a lot of him going sideways.

 

[freo1997]

Really? You might have to edit out a lot of him going sideways.

Guy was Fantastic late in the year.

 

[arsesmart]

Guy was Fantastic late in the year.

Made huge strides, absolutely (literally). But was as much a proponent of the sideways/backwards kick as anybody.

 

[Dockeroo]

Over handball. Many times the player with the ball could have run off and instead chose to handball back into congestion. We haven't found the correct balance.

This to me is one of the hallmarks of the Justin Longmuir era. How on earth can he watch these games and not see this is a recurring issue?

 

[pK75]

This to me is one of the hallmarks of the Justin Longmuir era. How on earth can he watch these games and not see this is a recurring issue?

He does, he often mentions we are over using the ball at times and need to straighten up.

 

[apuchar]

Wagner is that man!

If I could I would put together a Wagner off half back highlights reel.

I agree. That's why I think he has to play, even if some other player is considered to be the slightly better player. Aish, Pearce and Walker do it sometimes but Clark, Cox and Ryan simply refuse 95% of the time.

 

[arsesmart]

I agree. That's why I think he has to play, even if some other player is considered to be the slightly better player. Aish, Pearce and Walker do it sometimes but Clark, Cox and Ryan simply refuse 95% of the time.

If Wagner's the solution, we're in deep shizen.

 

[apuchar]

If Wagner's the solution, we're in deep shizen.

We need someone prepared to take the game on from the backline and he is the best at it and one of the few that is prepared to do it consistently. Stagnation from the backline is one of our biggest problems and he helps with that. So he is certainly part of the solution.

 

[The Feeder Club]

If Wagner's the solution, we're in deep shizen.

There's a couple of players that spring to mind that have been delisted by one club and gone on to win a premiership with their second, like Bachar Houli. Has any player ever been delisted by two different clubs and been a premiership player at a third? I'm open to the idea it has happened, but it's got to have been rarer than rare.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Wagner has severe defensive limitations and kicking can be questionable but his one wood is running fast towards our goal which is something you cant say for many others in the team. Two of Clark, Wagner and Walker are required every week.

Williams, Stanley and to a lesser extent, Draper (having size, speed and skills is a massive help) also have scope to fix us here and I was surprised Stanley was kept out of that Port game. I hope he really pushes his case for a spot moving forward because his speed, kicking and decision making could be an absolute weapon

 

[arsesmart]

Wagner has severe defensive limitations and kicking can be questionable but his one wood is running fast towards our goal which is something you cant say for many others in the team. Two of Clark, Wagner and Walker are required every week.

Williams, Stanley and to a lesser extent, Draper (having size, speed and skills is a massive help) also have scope to fix us here and I was surprised Stanley was kept out of that Port game. I hope he really pushes his case for a spot moving forward because his speed, kicking and decision making could be an absolute weapon

Hopefully there's a spread of options. Another major limitation of Wagner is his judgement. He is no platform from which to base our game on.

 

[arsesmart]

We need someone prepared to take the game on from the backline and he is the best at it and one of the few that is prepared to do it consistently. Stagnation from the backline is one of our biggest problems and he helps with that. So he is certainly part of the solution.

As much as running the ball out of the backline, he'd also stop, prop and send it sideways.

 

[apuchar]

As much as running the ball out of the backline, he'd also stop, prop and send it sideways.

Rarely, if ever.

 

[Docker82]

There's a couple of players that spring to mind that have been delisted by one club and gone on to win a premiership with their second, like Bachar Houli. Has any player ever been delisted by two different clubs and been a premiership player at a third? I'm open to the idea it has happened, but it's got to have been rarer than rare.

Houli was only delisted after a trade was failed to be negotiated between Essendon and Richmond. Essendon wanted to keep him.

It states he was delisted but that’s the same for every departing player that doesn’t retire or gets traded. The Pre Season Draft was free agency before free agency existed.

 

[The Feeder Club]

Houli was only delisted after a trade was failed to be negotiated between Essendon and Richmond. Essendon wanted to keep him.

Still delisted. I think there are others besides Bachar though, that are premiership players after being delisted by one club. Can you think of any that have been delisted by two?

 

[Docker82]

Still delisted. I think there are others besides Bachar though, that are premiership players after being delisted by one club. Can you think of any that have been delisted by two?

To answer your question probably not.

Having said that I think you’ve got to look at Houli as not being delisted for the sake of this argument. Even though it says he was delisted it was never decided by an AFL club he wasn’t good enough. He was actively chased by Richmond and they tried to negotiate a trade with Essendon.

We’re talking in a era where uncontracted players going to the Pre Season Draft was normal. When players decided to not sign a new contract and go to the Pre Season Draft they were listed as ‘delisted’ - that’s exactly what happened with Houli.

I’m only really further strengthening the original argument you were trying to make btw.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Still delisted. I think there are others besides Bachar though, that are premiership players after being delisted by one club. Can you think of any that have been delisted by two?

Tyson Stengle comes close.
Was traded by Richmond for a 4th round pick after no games in 2018, then delisted by Adelaide in 2021 before winning premiership in '22 with Geelong.

 

[dockerfemme]

Wasn’t Joel Hamling

29

Joel Hamling

Age

31

Ht

194cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

6.2

2star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

11.8

3star

K

7.6

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

5.8

5star

T

1.0

3star

delisted by Geelong before being picked up by the Doggies? That is one not two.

 

[Docker82]

Tyson Stengle comes close.
Was traded by Richmond for a 4th round pick after no games in 2018, then delisted by Adelaide in 2021 before winning premiership in '22 with Geelong.

View attachment 1918822

Hawthorn’s back six in their 2008 premiership had formally delisted players in it in Brent Guerra and Stephen Gilham.

Guerra had also been traded prior to getting delisted. He was a small forward prior to being delisted by St Kilda (as was Wagner in his previous AFL stints).

I’d argue that Oleg Markov was pretty damn close as well given he was traded from Richmond to Gold Coast for **** all.

Pretty minimal part of their flag but pretty sure Jonathan Simpkin who played one of Hawthorn’s flags was delisted by both Sydney and Geelong.