Kind of shows you what a magician Werdum is. Fedor is excellent on the ground. A 270lb man who has been beating his face in and has him flattened out on his belly should rightfully be able to submit Fedor. But no.
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Strikeforce Heavyweight Tournament 2011
- Thread starter Magnum
- Start date
- Tagged users None
- Banned
- #77
Guys does this thread really have to be stickied? Reality is it's a tournament to determine who is still relevent, populated by a few 1st tier fighters of the past and a few others who we're now sure are even 2nd tier today.
I read something on the UG that said everyone was getting hyped and seduced by a GIF of a spreadsheet. Can't say I disagree to be honest. Not too long ago JDS ko'd Werdum and hardly raised a sweat, yet MMA Weekly and other websites have him ranked ahead of JDS in world rankings?
All because he subbed a guy who hadn't fought anyone relevent in 5 years and had obviously slipped a lot in that time and was no longer in the top tier of HW fighters in the world.
I know I'll get hated on for saying that but it's the truth and I been saying it for years. All these ranking are flawed that have JDS below Werdum, and if that's all of the rankings then they are ALL flawed.
I read something on the UG that said everyone was getting hyped and seduced by a GIF of a spreadsheet. Can't say I disagree to be honest. Not too long ago JDS ko'd Werdum and hardly raised a sweat, yet MMA Weekly and other websites have him ranked ahead of JDS in world rankings?
All because he subbed a guy who hadn't fought anyone relevent in 5 years and had obviously slipped a lot in that time and was no longer in the top tier of HW fighters in the world.
I know I'll get hated on for saying that but it's the truth and I been saying it for years. All these ranking are flawed that have JDS below Werdum, and if that's all of the rankings then they are ALL flawed.
jimmyclean
Team Captain
If Overeem beats Werdum, Big Foot and Barnett I'll rate him number 1 or 2.
If Werdum wins I won't rate him number 1, he is a BJJ wizard but I remember him fighting AA back in 2006 in one of the worst striking displays I have ever seen.
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i agree and rate jds and velasquez higher than any of the strikeforce fighters, it's debatable but could also consider lesnar, carwin, and mir ahead of them too.
i know it was awhile ago now (and plenty of 'bulk'), shogun beat overeem twice at pride too.
I think you understate Strikeforce and the HW tournament Deej. They are putting on some great fights and providing good competition to the UFC and that can only be good for MMA fans.
On the rankings I consider MMAFighterRanking as the best guide as they average all the major rankings into an industry average.
Here is their HW top 10 for Febuary.
Cain Velasquez
Fedor Emelianenko
Brock Lesnar
Junior Dos Santos
Shane Carwin
Frank Mir
Alistair Overeem
Fabricio Werdum
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira ("Big Nog")
Antonio Silvia
March should be out soon and will show the impact of Fedor vs Silva.
On the rankings I consider MMAFighterRanking as the best guide as they average all the major rankings into an industry average.
Here is their HW top 10 for Febuary.
Cain Velasquez
Fedor Emelianenko
Brock Lesnar
Junior Dos Santos
Shane Carwin
Frank Mir
Alistair Overeem
Fabricio Werdum
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira ("Big Nog")
Antonio Silvia
March should be out soon and will show the impact of Fedor vs Silva.
- Thread starter
- #81
How would you rank Edgar Deej? He was beaten by Maynard but only to then beat the number 1 in Penn, exactly the same circumstance as Werdum when he beat the number 1 in Fedor. Would you rank Maynard over Edgar?
The JDS fight was quite a while ago, JDS has also lost by sub against a no-namer not long before that. Do we hold that against him?
Plus Werdum's loss to JDS, I can guarantee Werdum if he fought JDS now would fight the same as he did the first time. In the first fight he was a 5-1 favourite and he came in a fat 20 pounds over his usual weight, most likely taking the then unknown debutant JDS lightly. No excuse for the result of course, but now JDS has shown to be the beast he is, I though Werdum would play a different game and the fight would be competitve.
And related to perception, how would you have ranked Brian Erbersole before fighting on Sunday? A nobody, a "can", yet he came out and beat down on Lytle. Shows not all that are in the UFC are necessarily over and above those who are not in it. It's a lot to do with Hype or lack thereof.
I know you hate anything non-UFC but at least try to have a non-biased perspective.
The JDS fight was quite a while ago, JDS has also lost by sub against a no-namer not long before that. Do we hold that against him?
Plus Werdum's loss to JDS, I can guarantee Werdum if he fought JDS now would fight the same as he did the first time. In the first fight he was a 5-1 favourite and he came in a fat 20 pounds over his usual weight, most likely taking the then unknown debutant JDS lightly. No excuse for the result of course, but now JDS has shown to be the beast he is, I though Werdum would play a different game and the fight would be competitve.
And related to perception, how would you have ranked Brian Erbersole before fighting on Sunday? A nobody, a "can", yet he came out and beat down on Lytle. Shows not all that are in the UFC are necessarily over and above those who are not in it. It's a lot to do with Hype or lack thereof.
I know you hate anything non-UFC but at least try to have a non-biased perspective.
The next round of the Tournament has been bumped from April out to June.
Strikeforce have chosen to put on Diaz vs Daley and Melendez vs Kawajiri instead.
I called it at the start of this thread that we could see the final in 2012 or 2013...
Strikeforce have chosen to put on Diaz vs Daley and Melendez vs Kawajiri instead.
I called it at the start of this thread that we could see the final in 2012 or 2013...
- Thread starter
- #84
My tip would be 2012... 2013 would be a complete joke.
I would have preferred all the quarter finals in one event, but I guess from SF's perspective they wanted to pad it out so they can fill more events. Annoyed we have to wait an extra 2 months though. You'd think they could organise things a little better. Not a good thing to have a 4 month gap between the quarter final bouts. So long as the fights happen eventually I guess all can be forgiven...
I would have preferred all the quarter finals in one event, but I guess from SF's perspective they wanted to pad it out so they can fill more events. Annoyed we have to wait an extra 2 months though. You'd think they could organise things a little better. Not a good thing to have a 4 month gap between the quarter final bouts. So long as the fights happen eventually I guess all can be forgiven...
- Banned
- #85
I don't "hate" anything non UFC cmon that's just bs designed to discredit my comments.
This 'tournament' is a joke, it's a joke to even call it a tournament. What it is is a marketing gimmick dreamt up by the tv guys at showtime. Let me tell you how it goes, you design a novelty that is a throwback to the old seg/pride style of events, and whip up a pretty spreadsheet, stick it on the internet.... and bang! the hardcore guys do the rest! They run with it, they talk it up, they romanticize the hell out of it, until one day you log on to bigfooty combat forum and it's stickied at the top of the page.
And these hardcore fans are your best infantry, cause they are PASSIONATE. Dare question the legitimacy of the spreadsheet and the word HATE gets mentioned. Next is dana's balls are in your mouth. After that comes zuffa zombie. Or UFC shill. And at the end of the day what you have is a disproportionate amount of attention and focus placed on a gif of a green/blue spreadsheet, which is exactly what the clever tv marketing guys wanted to happen.
The really ironical thing is the hardcores think they are all about the fights and the fighters, but they themselves shy from the biggest and best promotion who put on the most fights, the best fights, and pay by far the bigger paychecks to a much MUCH greater number of fighters. Yet they are painted as the nasty guys as opposed to the slick tv marketing guys who are ONLY in it for the money but who are painted as saviours who are batting for the little guy. Look apologies if any of that offends I don't mean it that way, it's just from where i sit this is all a big steaming crockpot of sh-t. I might be totally wrong and maybe all the hardcores are right, but at the moment that's my opinion.
This 'tournament' is a joke, it's a joke to even call it a tournament. What it is is a marketing gimmick dreamt up by the tv guys at showtime. Let me tell you how it goes, you design a novelty that is a throwback to the old seg/pride style of events, and whip up a pretty spreadsheet, stick it on the internet.... and bang! the hardcore guys do the rest! They run with it, they talk it up, they romanticize the hell out of it, until one day you log on to bigfooty combat forum and it's stickied at the top of the page.
And these hardcore fans are your best infantry, cause they are PASSIONATE. Dare question the legitimacy of the spreadsheet and the word HATE gets mentioned. Next is dana's balls are in your mouth. After that comes zuffa zombie. Or UFC shill. And at the end of the day what you have is a disproportionate amount of attention and focus placed on a gif of a green/blue spreadsheet, which is exactly what the clever tv marketing guys wanted to happen.
The really ironical thing is the hardcores think they are all about the fights and the fighters, but they themselves shy from the biggest and best promotion who put on the most fights, the best fights, and pay by far the bigger paychecks to a much MUCH greater number of fighters. Yet they are painted as the nasty guys as opposed to the slick tv marketing guys who are ONLY in it for the money but who are painted as saviours who are batting for the little guy. Look apologies if any of that offends I don't mean it that way, it's just from where i sit this is all a big steaming crockpot of sh-t. I might be totally wrong and maybe all the hardcores are right, but at the moment that's my opinion.
- Thread starter
- #86
Fair enough, that's your opinion, but one question - how is it not a tournament? It's got set brackets and we fans can extrapolate who will fight who should someone win. Sure, if we found out next week that Bigfoot would fight Kharitanov then it would just be a set of fights, but because we know this can't happen as they are on the opposite side of a set bracket, its most definitely a tournament. Pretty much everyone agrees that its a tournament bar those who try to discredit this thing (for whatever reason, hmm). So that brings me to a second question, why are you trying to discredit this tourney?
Personally I think its a really awesome event to have and has spiced up MMA in 2011 for the better... Would you prefer it wasn't even on? I mean nobody is forcing you to watch it or comment in the thread if you don't want to.
Personally I think its a really awesome event to have and has spiced up MMA in 2011 for the better... Would you prefer it wasn't even on? I mean nobody is forcing you to watch it or comment in the thread if you don't want to.
- Banned
- #87
My opinion is a tournament is held in a proper timely manner, so qtrs are on one day, semis next day, then final. Yeah ok you can afford a little flexibility, maybe a week or at worst 2 weeks, and all fight conditions are identical on each night ie rules, ring or cage, drug testing, etc.
Anything else isn't a real tournament. This is a dogs dinner.
Why me run it down? Because SF are using bs marketing to try to position themselves as a competitor to the UFC, and you already know my ideal scenario in MMA. I'm seeing another fedor type wizard of oz smokescreen, which can't be revealed for what it is because the fights that would establish the truth and dispel the myths cannot be made unless all the fighters are in the UFC.
Nick Diaz calls out GSP then signs another SF contract? What a crock of sh-t.
JDS destroys Werdum who then beats the legendary Fedor and now Werdum is ranked above JDS? C'mon.
Overeem is one guy that could be a real force, but where's the proper drug testing?
I'm betting Daley will smash Diaz and we know from the Kos fight that Daley had a few ahead of him in the UFC. But yeah call out the best guy in full knowledge that you can never fight him. Marketing bs.
I dunno magnum you think I'm hating I just don't want this bs I want all the fighters under the one roof so they can fight each other and not hand pick opponents, fight who you're told when you're told, so we can find out who the absolute best guys are with minimal doubt.
Can you imagine if fedor and overeem were in the UFC? Dana would be saying next week, Overeem v JDS is headlining next month, Brock v Fedor month after, Carwin v Bigfoot is in between, Diaz v Fitch or BJ or Kampman or Diego after that, all these fights would get done and the posturing bs would cease. That's my ideal mma world.
Looks like Christmas came early Deej.
With existing contracts being honoured, it seems like the Tournament will continue for now but if there's any more delays I think we could see it get the axe. Bringing those heavyweights into the UFC would be a major priority for Zuffa.
With existing contracts being honoured, it seems like the Tournament will continue for now but if there's any more delays I think we could see it get the axe. Bringing those heavyweights into the UFC would be a major priority for Zuffa.
- Thread starter
- #89
Looks like Deej's view of the MMA universe is pretty much solidified!
I certainly hope it turns out for the best. I never was for a pure monopoly as its akin to only being able to go to one bank for a home loan, but I'm staying positive. In terms of my ideal MMA world, we'll I've capitulated.
Keeping two businesses in UFC AND Strikeforce sounds pretty awesome (althought they did say this with Pride), just to be able to have org-vs-org cross events and different "flavours" of MMA, although I don't expect that to last long.
Looks like we WILL eventually be able to see who exactly is the best in the world (at least fighting under Unified Rules inside a cage). I certainly hope having the best fight the best will be worth the potential pitfalls.
Cheers to a united (or is that Unified) MMA world. I'll be optimistic.
With that all said, I am EXTREMELY excited to see the big fights happen. Bring on Overeem vs Cain, Brock vs Fedor and whoever else!!!
I certainly hope it turns out for the best. I never was for a pure monopoly as its akin to only being able to go to one bank for a home loan, but I'm staying positive. In terms of my ideal MMA world, we'll I've capitulated.
Keeping two businesses in UFC AND Strikeforce sounds pretty awesome (althought they did say this with Pride), just to be able to have org-vs-org cross events and different "flavours" of MMA, although I don't expect that to last long.
Looks like we WILL eventually be able to see who exactly is the best in the world (at least fighting under Unified Rules inside a cage). I certainly hope having the best fight the best will be worth the potential pitfalls.
Cheers to a united (or is that Unified) MMA world. I'll be optimistic.
With that all said, I am EXTREMELY excited to see the big fights happen. Bring on Overeem vs Cain, Brock vs Fedor and whoever else!!!
- Thread starter
- #91
Next round of the heavyweight tourney is up this weekend, with 2 highly anticipated HW fights and generally a solid card to boot.
Main card
Heavyweight Grand Prix Quarterfinal bout: Alistair Overeem vs. Fabricio Werdum
Heavyweight Grand Prix Quarterfinal bout: Josh Barnett vs. Brett Rogers
Lightweight bout: K.J. Noons vs. Jorge Masvidal
Heavyweight bout: Daniel Cormier vs. Jeff Monson
Heavyweight bout: Valentijn Overeem vs. Chad Griggs
Preliminary Card
Lightweight bout: Gesias Cavalcante vs. Justin Wilcox
Lightweight bout: Conor Heun vs. Magno Almeida
Welterweight bout: Nah-Shon Burrell vs. Joe Ray
Welterweight bout: Todd Moore vs. Mike Bronzoulis
Welterweight bout: Brian Melancon vs. Isaac Vallie-Flagg
Thoughts?
I think Overeem will likely get over Fabricio, unless Werdum can weave some magic, force an extended tie up or manage to get dominant position on Overeem. I was thinking perhaps he could try pulling guard and try to slide right underneath overeem, kind of like pulling X-Guard in an attempt to work a sweep to get on top. Would be very difficult but I just don't think going the traditional methods of getting it to the ground with a takedown or trip is going to work so something out of the ordinary might suprise Overeem. My get tells me Werdum will be softened up for a while whilst Overeem gets his range and then will finish Werdum or take a dominant decision.
Barnett / Rogers, well Unless Brett can land a big shot, or avoid getting taken down for the whole fight, he's pretty much toast. Even standing with Barnett is dangerous enough. Brett's going to have to rush Barnett and manage to find him his chin, but I just doubt this is going to happen. Barnett by Sub.
Main card
Heavyweight Grand Prix Quarterfinal bout: Alistair Overeem vs. Fabricio Werdum
Heavyweight Grand Prix Quarterfinal bout: Josh Barnett vs. Brett Rogers
Lightweight bout: K.J. Noons vs. Jorge Masvidal
Heavyweight bout: Daniel Cormier vs. Jeff Monson
Heavyweight bout: Valentijn Overeem vs. Chad Griggs
Preliminary Card
Lightweight bout: Gesias Cavalcante vs. Justin Wilcox
Lightweight bout: Conor Heun vs. Magno Almeida
Welterweight bout: Nah-Shon Burrell vs. Joe Ray
Welterweight bout: Todd Moore vs. Mike Bronzoulis
Welterweight bout: Brian Melancon vs. Isaac Vallie-Flagg
Thoughts?
I think Overeem will likely get over Fabricio, unless Werdum can weave some magic, force an extended tie up or manage to get dominant position on Overeem. I was thinking perhaps he could try pulling guard and try to slide right underneath overeem, kind of like pulling X-Guard in an attempt to work a sweep to get on top. Would be very difficult but I just don't think going the traditional methods of getting it to the ground with a takedown or trip is going to work so something out of the ordinary might suprise Overeem. My get tells me Werdum will be softened up for a while whilst Overeem gets his range and then will finish Werdum or take a dominant decision.
Barnett / Rogers, well Unless Brett can land a big shot, or avoid getting taken down for the whole fight, he's pretty much toast. Even standing with Barnett is dangerous enough. Brett's going to have to rush Barnett and manage to find him his chin, but I just doubt this is going to happen. Barnett by Sub.
It's a strange feeling to be thinking about buying a Strikeforce event on pay per view for once instead of streaming the main fight online. Gina Carano pulling out is disappointing and no one knows why so there's rumours that she's pregnant to some lucky bastard.
I'm tipping Ubereem to win but I'm more interested in how he goes about it. If he can dispatch Werdum with similar ease to the way JDS did it should give us an idea of where he'd stand amongst the UFC's heavyweights as he hasn't faced a genuinely top level fighter since Pride.
Barnett has too much experience for Rogers and he should be able to get the TKO or sub.
I'm tipping Ubereem to win but I'm more interested in how he goes about it. If he can dispatch Werdum with similar ease to the way JDS did it should give us an idea of where he'd stand amongst the UFC's heavyweights as he hasn't faced a genuinely top level fighter since Pride.
Barnett has too much experience for Rogers and he should be able to get the TKO or sub.
Thinking the Reem will just crush Werdum, he gave him all he could handle five years ago and while Werdum has also improved he hasn't changed anywhere near as much as Overeem has. Hopefully the GSP/Diaz fight sets up the winner of the GP moving straight into the UFC for a title fight.
Barnett should be too good, Rogers has pretty much zero advantages in the fight. Barnett by sub in the second round.
For the other fights, Noons by decision, Cormier by decision over the Snowman and no idea on the other HW fight, guess I'll go with Othereem due to all of his experience. Hopefully JZ rebounds on the only prelim fight that I care about, I thought he got stiffed against Thomson last year.
Barnett should be too good, Rogers has pretty much zero advantages in the fight. Barnett by sub in the second round.
For the other fights, Noons by decision, Cormier by decision over the Snowman and no idea on the other HW fight, guess I'll go with Othereem due to all of his experience. Hopefully JZ rebounds on the only prelim fight that I care about, I thought he got stiffed against Thomson last year.
- Thread starter
- #94
I’m not sure how much you should take from the JDS fight with Werdum. Although nobody has crushed Werdum the way JDS did, assuming Overeem “should” do the same to compare him to UFC heavies is probably not fair. JDS was an unknown fighter when he fought Werdum and my guess is that Werdum took the debutant JDS a little light (especially because he came in at over 250 pounds, which is about 15 pounds heavier than usual). I think if Werdum fought JDS again, he’d be much more cautious of his power now everybody knows how good he is. Similarly with Overeem I can see Werdum being quite hesitant to engage so it might be somewhat of a slow fight with neither fighter wanting to slip up as both have the ability to finish the other in their domain. I would love to see an Overeem/JDS fight someday though, that would be unreal.
Plus that punch would've knocked out prime Mark Hunt.
I'm going with every fighter on the left. It's definitely unfair to compare Overeem's performance to JDS', but I think he is going to win just as impressively.
I'm going with every fighter on the left. It's definitely unfair to compare Overeem's performance to JDS', but I think he is going to win just as impressively.
Guy Threepwood
Premiership Player
Agree with the majority that Overeem and Barnett should win pretty comfortably. Overeem was unlucky last time around against Werdum and should be able to put him away, while Barnett's just has to avoid Roger's power shots and he should win easily.
Am really looking forward to seeing how Cormier handles the step up in competition and Noons is always fun to watch so the rest of the card should be good too.
Am really looking forward to seeing how Cormier handles the step up in competition and Noons is always fun to watch so the rest of the card should be good too.
I really hope Barnett stands with Rogers for too long and gets clipped. I can actually see it happening.
Anyone know if the prelims are being shown anywhere? Cavalcante is one of my favourites and I wouldn't mind seeing his fight.
Anyone know if the prelims are being shown anywhere? Cavalcante is one of my favourites and I wouldn't mind seeing his fight.
100action
Norm Smith Medallist
watching in HD on veetle, im so excited 
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