Struggling Melbourne Clubs - Loss of Home Ground Advantage

[GoYouBlues]

Given the draft, here's the main reason, Melbourne teams, including Geelong (at times) struggle to beat the interstaters.

No Home Ground Advantage
I think this is the major factor. If the games were on the local suburban grounds as they once were, the home ground advantage would be much more of a factor. The way it is now, interstate clubs come to play regularly in Melbourne and only play at two locations. They are used to those venues. If it was a once a year trip to Morrabin, Windy Hill, Princes Park or Victoria Park, they would find it much very difficult to win games. That is why Hawthorn do well at their new 'home ground' in Tasmania. The opposition clubs only play there once a year. Melbourne teams all play each other at one of two venues. There is no home ground advantage. The Melbourne teams are fairly even.

When they go to Sydney, Perth. Adelaide, etc., on their once a year trip (less with the uneven draw) they aren't used to it. It is very hard to win interstate.

The Melbourne teams have sacrificed home ground advantage for bigger crowds and hence bigger revenue, but at what cost? Appearances in finals, GFs and premierships.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Agree. More recently you can still see the advantage of home ground advantage with the Hawks playing games in Tasmania and the Kangaroos in Canberra - when opposition teams aren't used to the venue, they struggle. This advantage has been lost to most Vic clubs. But there are four Victorian teams in the top eight at the moment so it can't be all bad.

 

[liverpool07]

i posted this in one of the many millions of similar threads on this forum..

anyone who believes otherwise isn't looking a the big picture..

any team can build a great list but salary cap will eventually tear it down. But the ability to pencil in 7 to 8 home game wins per year at your own home ground is the biggest advantage interstate teams have and its the cornerstone of long term success.

 

[GoYouBlues]

i posted this in one of the many millions of similar threads on this forum..

anyone who believes otherwise isn't looking a the big picture..

any team can build a great list but salary cap will eventually tear it down. But the ability to pencil in 7 to 8 home game wins per year at your own home ground is the biggest advantage interstate teams have and its the cornerstone of long term success.

Exactly. Adelaide, Pt Adelaide, Brisbane and WCE at their peak would pencil in around 10/11 of thei home games as wins. Any loss was considered an upset.

 

[superstar]

Spot on. Takign away suburban ground shave robbed Victorian sides (bar Geelong) of any advantage.

It's my main reason for giving 100% support to the Tassie initiative. Four games a year with genuine home ground advantage.

 

[Rob]

Probably true, but what are you gonna do about it?

 

[SMFC]

Probably true, but what are you gonna do about it?

Let's start by, dare i say it, move the Kangaroos to the Gold Coast and merge another 2 Melbourne clubs as a starting point.

 

[GoldenSky]

Why did Carlton give up Princes Park though?

 

[kimirocks]

Well, just from my own example, for an interstate team, Adelaide, played 2 games in Melbourne, 1 at the TD, 1 at the MCG (make that 3 wins after Round 10), and have won both of them, travelled to Brisbane, and won, and travelled to Perth and lost by a point. Home grounds these days are nothing more than a stadium filled with home fans, but then even when Adelaide play in Melbourne there are 5-10,000 Adelaide fans anyway. It's the way you Victorians want it, live with it.

 

[Tas]

Let's start by, dare i say it, move the Kangaroos to the Gold Coast and merge another 2 Melbourne clubs as a starting point.

Move Collingwood, they are happier to dump their spiritual home than we are.

If you are good enough you will beat teams on neutral venues. The "problem" is giving some teams like Swans 14 or 15 home games by giving them away games at Manuka.

You might aswell play at the SCG or TS, Swans supporters will outnumber the "home team", might aswell play it somewhere you will get more than 10k people.

 

[Pwoit]

There are more reasons than just the venues where games are played.

All the non Victorian clubs have their pre-draft picks playing in the WAFL SANFL ACT QLD comps - these teams have grown men playing in the same teams as the younger players- Where as in Victoria the pre-draft picks are only playing against players their own age.

Non Vic clubs get an advantage of having the recruits already having match hardness against bigger and more skillful players. If they are recruited to their own state they are able to play these guys already. Where it takes the Vic clubs time to develop the younger players.

 

[kimirocks]

There are more reasons than just the venues where games are played.

All the non Victorian clubs have their pre-draft picks playing in the WAFL SANFL ACT QLD comps - these teams have grown men playing in the same teams as the younger players- Where as in Victoria the pre-draft picks are only playing against players their own age.

Non Vic clubs get an advantage of having the recruits already having match hardness against bigger and more skillful players. If they are recruited to their own state they are able to play these guys already. Where it takes the Vic clubs time to develop the younger players.

Um dude, last time I checked, there wasn't a rule saying you can only draft players from your own state. Each Victorian club has the opportunity (we can say more opportunity, because only a couple play finals) to draft these young kids. That is a pisspoor argument.

 

[Dont be a lemon]

I think any advantage the non-Victorian clubs get in having their own home venues is largely countered by the fact that they have to travel (emphasis on travel) 10-11 times for away games each season.

The Victorian clubs are struggling because the non-Victorian clubs just happen to have better players at this point in time.

 

[JeffDunne]

Since the start of 2004, St Kilda have played 40 games at TD for a 32-8 record.

Compares pretty favourably with the best home ground advantages in the league.

The Home Ground advantage excuse is one of the worst going when looking for a reason why Vic teams struggle.

 

[lookkg386]

Since the start of 2004, St Kilda's have played 40 games at TD for a 32-8 record.

Comprares pretty favourably with the best home ground advantages in the league.

The Home Ground advantage excuse is one of the worst going when looking for a reason why Vic teams struggle.

Fair point, but I think its more valid with all the home teams at the MCG, there seems to be no advantage there, but what I think is the big point is where you train, interstate teams training on their home grounds must have an advantage with even goal kicking practice.

 

[Altum Volantes]

Fair point, but I think its more valid with all the home teams at the MCG, there seems to be no advantage there, but what I think is the big point is where you train, interstate teams training on their home grounds must have an advantage with even goal kicking practice.

You are drawing a pretty long bow there I think...

Any stronger home advantage the non Vic clubs might have is off set by the fact that they travel about twice as much as Victorian teams. Simple as that.

 

[The Night Shift]

Since the start of 2004, St Kilda's have played 40 games at TD for a 32-8 record.

Comprares pretty favourably with the best home ground advantages in the league.

The Home Ground advantage excuse is one of the worst going when looking for a reason why Vic teams struggle.

I have to agree. Dosen't the Western Bulldogs and St Kilda play the TD much better than other other Vic based teams.

Those suburban grounds mentioned before just are not up to AFL standard.
I would love for the dockers to play at Fremantle Oval and not Subi [in fact I'd love the WA state government to get of its arse and build a bigger better modern stadia already] but it's no where near AFL standard.
I'm sure the Power wouldnt mind playing at Alberton but that wouldnt up to AFL standards as well I'm guessing.

Whats the deal with Princes Park? Didnt Carlton build some Legends Stand or something. Why can it not be used for VIC clubs AFL home games. Is it crowd numbers and profit potentials that determine the use of the MCG and TD?

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

Since the start of 2004, St Kilda have played 40 games at TD for a 32-8 record.

Comprares pretty favourably with the best home ground advantages in the league.

The Home Ground advantage excuse is one of the worst going when looking for a reason why Vic teams struggle.

Excellent point. This 'diluted home ground advantage' argument is one of the weakest put up by some Victorians of all of them.

Case in point...the Eagles play one game at the MCG this year.

Melbourne are playing both the Dockers and Eagles at Subiaco Oval this year. So by the rationale of the OP, the Eagles have a weaker home ground advantage at Subiaco than Melbourne do against them at the MCG?

Quite simply, the reason the non Victorians have been winning a little more often in Victoria this year is because they have been top sides.

Even the Skilled Stadium example doesn't stack up. Kangaroos went down there recently and beat Geelong, as did Richmond for one last year.

 

[mcgarnacle]

i think some supporters are underestimating the advantages provided by a home ground............the routine, the environment, the majority of support.

 

[- PC -]

Let's start by, dare i say it, move the Kangaroos to the Gold Coast and merge another 2 Melbourne clubs as a starting point.

They will still play at the 2 Melbourne grounds

 

[liverpool07]

Excellent point. This 'diluted home ground advantage' argument is one of the weakest put up by some Victorians of all of them.

Case in point...the Eagles play one game at the MCG this year.

Melbourne are playing both the Dockers and Eagles at Subiaco Oval this year. So by the rationale of the OP, the Eagles have a weaker home ground advantage at Subiaco than Melbourne do against them at the MCG?

Quite simply, the reason the non Victorians have been winning a little more often in Victoria this year is because they have been top sides.

Even the Skilled Stadium example doesn't stack up. Kangaroos went down there recently and beat Geelong, as did Richmond for one last year.

its only diluted because your not willing to look at it in more detail, of the 17 games melbourne clubs play in melbourne at most 5 of them can be against teams that aren't melbourne based (i.e 12 derby games with 5 games at home against interstate clubs) on the flip side interstate clubs are guaranteed to play 10-12 home games a year and only 2 of them are derby games.. the rest are against teams that have to travel to there home ground.. how would the eagles fare if they had to play fremantle 10+ times a year??

its a huge advantage...

the last 7 years is also proving that teams that travel get better at it over time.. the novelty wears off and they are much quicker to focus on match day...

 

[GoYouBlues]

its only diluted because your not willing to look at it in more detail, of the 17 games melbourne clubs play in melbourne at most 5 of them can be against teams that aren't melbourne based (i.e 12 derby games with 5 games at home against interstate clubs) on the flip side interstate clubs are guaranteed to play 10-12 home games a year and only 2 of them are derby games.. the rest are against teams that have to travel to there home ground.. how would the eagles fare if they had to play fremantle 10+ times a year??

its a huge advantage...

the last 7 years is also proving that teams that travel get better at it over time.. the novelty wears off and they are much quicker to focus on match day...

Spot on, Liverpool. Why do teams struggle more at Kardinia Park than at say Docklands? Because they play there only once (or even less under the skewed draw) a year.

Why did Carlton give up Princes Park though?

They were buggered finacially. They couldn't repay the loan. They borrowed a lot of money to build that stand.
In answer to the

 

[BK Eaglesfan]

its only diluted because your not willing to look at it in more detail, of the 17 games melbourne clubs play in melbourne at most 5 of them can be against teams that aren't melbourne based (i.e 12 derby games with 5 games at home against interstate clubs) on the flip side interstate clubs are guaranteed to play 10-12 home games a year and only 2 of them are derby games.. the rest are against teams that have to travel to there home ground.. how would the eagles fare if they had to play fremantle 10+ times a year??

its a huge advantage...

the last 7 years is also proving that teams that travel get better at it over time.. the novelty wears off and they are much quicker to focus on match day...

I get tired of posting this to dispel the myth you are spouting here...but here goes......

A way of looking at it is this...and it makes the assumption that every team in the league is of equal ability.

Average Vic side vs non - Vic team in Vic = 4 games 75% winning chance = 3 wins
Average Vic side away to a non - Vic side = 4 games 25% chance
= 1 win
Average Vic side vs Average Vic side in Vic = 14 games 50 / 50% chance
= 7 wins

Total season wins = 11
(obviously some Vic sides play more or less games versus non Vic teams, but this is about the norm)

Average non Vic side home games vs competition from another state = 10 games (this applies to W.A and S.A teams) 75% chance winning
= 7.5 wins
Average non Vic side vs other home state team (ie Western Derby) = 2 games 50% chance winning
= 1 win
Average non Vic side on the road = 10 games with 25% chance of winning
= 2.5 wins

Total season wins = 11

The obvious deciding factor here is not purely number of games played at home, but how good you are, and the quality of opposition.

Argue the logic if you like, but stop this nonsense of pointing out that so many of your home games are 'derbies' and Victorian teams are disadvantaged.

 

[Philhawk]

One of the big reasons that Hawthorn decided to play 4 games down in Tassie.

With a 10/4 record down there, with 4 games there over the next few years it'd be fair to say that we'd start as favourites in all of them.

 

[GoYouBlues]

One of the big reasons that Hawthorn decided to play 4 games down in Tassie.

With a 10/4 record down there, with 4 games there over the next few years it'd be fair to say that we'd start as favourites in all of them.

Exactly.

We know it won't happen in a big hurry but getting the suburban home ground advantage back is worth a couple of goals each game. Carlton won two premierships in 1981-82 but couldn't beat Essendon at Windy Hill during the minor round. I bet Essendon would love their Windy Hill advantage again.