The A-League - how big can it get?

[BORK]

All the ones we are growing at a faster rate than.

Why would codes that play their season in winter care?

 

[Dan Cooper]

Why would codes that play their season in winter care?

People only have so much money they are prepared to spend on sports memberships. In the vast majority of households it isn't a bottomless money pit, and each sport is therefore competing for that money.

 

[BORK]

People only have so much money they are prepared to spend on sports memberships. In the vast majority of households it isn't a bottomless money pit, and each sport is therefore competing for that money.

If that were really the case the A league would have no problems playing in the winter months along side the other codes.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

It's better for the aleague if its in synch with the European season. Foxtel do it well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BORK]

It's better for the aleague if its not in synch with the AFL and NRL seasons. Foxtel do it well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FTFY

 

[tandino]

A-League isn't too far off the NRL in terms of average attendance as it stands now.

I think the opportunities for growth over the next 50 years are endless. The growth in population in Melbourne itself will be amazing, I can see the potential for another 2 teams in this city alone over that time frame.

 

[dvas987]

Did anyone read that thread on the "Footy Industry" board about the AFL scheduling games in Melbourne on the potential A-League grand final days? **** me dead some people in that thread are ignorant, especially 'The Wookie'. How is he a moderator? He's just a troll with a moderator badge

 

[Dan Cooper]

If that were really the case the A league would have no problems playing in the winter months along side the other codes.

The point I was making is most people only have so much money they are prepared to spend on sports memberships. They can only justify/afford to spend a certain amount of money on sport.

So few families will fork out for memberships of both their AFL club and their A League club, and it becomes a choice of which they will invest in. Yes they may attend some matches of both. But memberships of both involves a huge outlay and is out of the reach of most.

 

[ANGEL DARK]

D

A-League isn't too far off the NRL in terms of average attendance as it stands now.

I think the opportunities for growth over the next 50 years are endless. The growth in population in Melbourne itself will be amazing, I can see the potential for another 2 teams in this city alone over that time frame.

Dont think you can have more than 2 teams in Victoria as you will saturate the state with too many teams. Crowds are only good in Melbourne as they can draw 25000 to any game. No other state can pull anyway near that so I doubt theres much more scope for greater growth particularly in other states and if you cant keep players like David Villa here crowds are going to drop off. Teams like Central Coast and Newcastle will always struggle to stay afloat as they draw poor crowds consistently and Adelaide , Perth and Brisbane wont have enough support for extra teams in those states as well.

 

[The_Wookie]

Did anyone read that thread on the "Footy Industry" board about the AFL scheduling games in Melbourne on the potential A-League grand final days? **** me dead some people in that thread are ignorant, especially 'The Wookie'. How is he a moderator? He's just a troll with a moderator badge

Ignorance flows both ways - and theres a crap load of trolling going in the other direction. God forbid one of us should come out and actually refer to a legally binding contract. the fact is, as the AFL and NRL have found out before them, stadiums wont just hold a booking on the off chance they'll get a final if they can take a concrete booking now. Especially when it involves a tenant with priority rights.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Ignorance flows both ways - and theres a crap load of trolling going in the other direction. God forbid one of us should come out and actually refer to a legally binding contract. the fact is, as the AFL and NRL have found out before them, stadiums wont just hold a booking on the off chance they'll get a final if they can take a concrete booking now. Especially when it involves a tenant with priority rights.

Reading through that thread there was almost no trolling talking up soccer. Perhaps you cleaned it up. Yet there were a number of comments like "I'm sure the 100 or so people who like soccer in Australia will be crying in their sleep", "Don't they have their own ground to set off flares and then riot into the streets?" and "The F-League are F ing it up as usual." No danger of those being cleaned up I guess.

As far as I can tell practically nobody was disagreeing with anything you said. Yes they've got a contract and yes it's their right to have first choice on the stadium. If they want to shut the a-league grand final out that's their choice. They did it last year with many months notice on the date and they've done it this year, albeit with less notice on the date (due to the AFC changing their dates and forcing the FFA to switch). What people were arguing was that such a move would be petty, and keeping the date free would be very easy.

The a-league grand final is one of the biggest 20 or so sporting days on the calendar in Australia. While it's not the biggest sporting event in Australia by any means it is a guaranteed sell out of a big stadium despite expensive ticket prices (approximately the same as Prelim AFL tickets). It normally gets a lot of traveling fans due to an interstate team playing and gets massive overseas TV exposure compared to other Australian sport. Last year the AFL decided they'd book the blockbuster North Melbourne Vs Gold Coast and this year they've decided to book a similarly huge Western Bulldogs Vs Fremantle instead of leaving the date free in case the a-league GF is to be hosted by a Melbourne club. Like I said that's their choice but to the vast majority of sports fans that's a petty move. If the GF is switched interstate because of that there will be a lot of people very annoyed by it, including a lot of AFL fans and the people that control the money in the state government.

So you're right the AFL can do this and they have a binding contract. But it's another case of the AFL being completely out of touch with reality. Soccer isn't some backwater, minnow, ethnic sport anymore. The AFL are so busy playing stupid power games that they don't see that moves like this will cause significant backlash if they go through with them. Kicking the a-league out will do the AFL more damage than the a-league. It's not like they're asking for much. 1 Sunday left free. That's all. To any sports fan that isn't anti-soccer that would seem reasonable. But not to the AFL apparently.

 

[giggler99]

Reading through that thread there was almost no trolling talking up soccer. Perhaps you cleaned it up. Yet there were a number of comments like "I'm sure the 100 or so people who like soccer in Australia will be crying in their sleep", "Don't they have their own ground to set off flares and then riot into the streets?" and "The F-League are F ing it up as usual." No danger of those being cleaned up I guess.

As far as I can tell practically nobody was disagreeing with anything you said. Yes they've got a contract and yes it's their right to have first choice on the stadium. If they want to shut the a-league grand final out that's their choice. They did it last year with many months notice on the date and they've done it this year, albeit with less notice on the date (due to the AFC changing their dates and forcing the FFA to switch). What people were arguing was that such a move would be petty, and keeping the date free would be very easy.

The a-league grand final is one of the biggest 20 or so sporting days on the calendar in Australia. While it's not the biggest sporting event in Australia by any means it is a guaranteed sell out of a big stadium despite expensive ticket prices (approximately the same as Prelim AFL tickets). It normally gets a lot of traveling fans due to an interstate team playing and gets massive overseas TV exposure compared to other Australian sport. Last year the AFL decided they'd book the blockbuster North Melbourne Vs Gold Coast and this year they've decided to book a similarly huge Western Bulldogs Vs Fremantle instead of leaving the date free in case the a-league GF is to be hosted by a Melbourne club. Like I said that's their choice but to the vast majority of sports fans that's a petty move. If the GF is switched interstate because of that there will be a lot of people very annoyed by it, including a lot of AFL fans and the people that control the money in the state government.

So you're right the AFL can do this and they have a binding contract. But it's another case of the AFL being completely out of touch with reality. Soccer isn't some backwater, minnow, ethnic sport anymore. The AFL are so busy playing stupid power games that they don't see that moves like this will cause significant backlash if they go through with them. Kicking the a-league out will do the AFL more damage than the a-league. It's not like they're asking for much. 1 Sunday left free. That's all. To any sports fan that isn't anti-soccer that would seem reasonable. But not to the AFL apparently.

Great post well said.

 

[dvas987]

Ignorance flows both ways - and theres a crap load of trolling going in the other direction. God forbid one of us should come out and actually refer to a legally binding contract. the fact is, as the AFL and NRL have found out before them, stadiums wont just hold a booking on the off chance they'll get a final if they can take a concrete booking now. Especially when it involves a tenant with priority rights.

How you're a moderator is beyond me

 

[treegreen]

Dont think you can have more than 2 teams in Victoria as you will saturate the state with too many teams. Crowds are only good in Melbourne as they can draw 25000 to any game. No other state can pull anyway near that so I doubt theres much more scope for greater growth particularly in other states and if you cant keep players like David Villa here crowds are going to drop off. Teams like Central Coast and Newcastle will always struggle to stay afloat as they draw poor crowds consistently and Adelaide , Perth and Brisbane wont have enough support for extra teams in those states as well.

Last season crowds in Sydney were higher on average than in Melbourne (and Victory average well below 25,000 so no idea where you pulled that number from.) Newcastle don't draw poor crowds consistently at all, they get higher attendances than Adelaide and Perth and are only slightly behind Brisbane. Incredible numbers really when you consider how poor their team has been for the last few years.

Melbourne is nowhere near saturated. Melbourne is a city of 4 million people and only get ~30k fans a fortnight coming to watch the A-league. There is obviously massive room for growth there. (To put this in context, Central Coast can get 9,500 a fortnight in a region of only 250,000 people.)

WSW has shown that there is obviously further room for growth in Sydney. Lots of Sydney residents clearly feel no attachment to the generic Sydney FC and geotargeting different areas and demographics should reach out to more people there.

There's plenty of room for growth in other states if done properly and realistic targets are set. If the FFA offers the same support to a North Queensland club as they did for WSW there's no reason a club there can't find a viable market there and help grow the game in the region.

 

[Zidane98]

Ignorance flows both ways - and theres a crap load of trolling going in the other direction. God forbid one of us should come out and actually refer to a legally binding contract. the fact is, as the AFL and NRL have found out before them, stadiums wont just hold a booking on the off chance they'll get a final if they can take a concrete booking now. Especially when it involves a tenant with priority rights.

I really hope that the AFL has plenty of people in charge with your mindset. Soccer doesn't matter, soccer is a minor sport etc etc. News flash for you mate - soccer is here to stay and is growing rapidly. Right in the middle of your beloved footy season we will see 3 sell outs at the MCG in the space of one week for pre season practice matches. Your mate Gilon McLachlan tried to put a stop to it but was told to piss off in no uncertain terms by the MCC. Scheduling 2 3 games on the weekend of the 17th of May at ES & 2 at the MCG is showing how desperate the AFL really are but it isn't doing them any favours except in the eyes of old fashioned hard core footy supporters like yourself. They could easily have done 2 at ES & 3 at the G no problems at all.

 

[The_Wookie]

yeah lets not try to get too carried away here and make up stuff that i never said.

Ive never said soccer wasnt here to stay. Ive never said soccer was a minor sport. In fact I have advocated strongly elsewhere that it has certainly earnt its place.

My comments have been around the simple fact that the AFL has a legally binding contract, and that both the AFL and NRL have to deal with similar issues and are managing to do so without government intervention being asked for.

 

[Zidane98]

yeah lets not try to get too carried away here and make up stuff that i never said.

Ive never said soccer wasnt here to stay. Ive never said soccer was a minor sport. In fact I have advocated strongly elsewhere that it has certainly earnt its place.

My comments have been around the simple fact that the AFL has a legally binding contract, and that both the AFL and NRL have to deal with similar issues and are managing to do so without government intervention being asked for.

The FFA had a legally binding contract too and were asked by Collingwood if they could possibly shift the Melbourne derby which was scheduled on the same day as the 2010 GF replay. Do you think they sat around and said no we have a legally binding contract / piss off? Of course not, they worked with Collingwood & as a result there's plenty of Collingwood fans that had a great time at AAMI park and are now following A League football. To constantly harp on about contracts when there is 8 months to rearrange the fixture (and it wouldn't be difficult to switch it to 2 games at ES on fri/sat & 3 at the G on Fri/Sat/Sun) is short sighted and childish in the extreme. It only appeases the hardcore footy fanatics and actually turns many casual fans away from footy.
Furthermore ES is also a business and it wouldn't have been built if it was just to house AFL only - they need to maximise their revenue and business opportunities also.

This is the same AFL that has just asked the WSW to help the GWS Giants "grow together". The arrogance and stupidity at AFL house is truly mind boggling.

 

[The_Wookie]

The FFA had a legally binding contract too and were asked by Collingwood if they could possibly shift the Melbourne derby which was scheduled on the same day as the 2010 GF replay. Do you think they sat around and said no we have a legally binding contract / piss off? Of course not, they worked with Collingwood & as a result there's plenty of Collingwood fans that had a great time at AAMI park and are now following A League football. To constantly harp on about contracts when there is 8 months to rearrange the fixture (and it wouldn't be difficult to switch it to 2 games at ES on fri/sat & 3 at the G on Fri/Sat/Sun) is short sighted and childish in the extreme. It only appeases the hardcore footy fanatics and actually turns many casual fans away from footy.
Furthermore ES is also a business and it wouldn't have been built if it was just to house AFL only - they need to maximise their revenue and business opportunities also.

This is the same AFL that has just asked the WSW to help the GWS Giants "grow together". The arrogance and stupidity at AFL house is truly mind boggling.

Really though? because everything reported in the media, including quotes from Lyal Gorman, then CEO of the Aleague, suggests that the FFA chose to move the derby so it wasnt completely overshadowed by the AFL Grand Final replay.

from The Heraldsun, September 26th, 2010

"This is one of our marquee games and it is important that we give our fans every opportunity to get to the game and be part of history," Gorman said.

"The rescheduling makes sense on a lot of levels and will give us clear space in the lead up and a clear precinct on the night so we can maximise exposure and attendance."

The quote is also repeated in The Age from the same date. Its also a sentiment echoed by several other sports industries including racing and cycling that were due to be held on the same day.

Comments in the Sunday Age also suggest that the Aleague WANTED to move it when the Grand Final replay was inevitable

Heart chief executive Scott Munn, in Brisbane for his side's clash with Brisbane Roar, said talks were taking place last night and would continue today as the club sought solutions to its unexpected problem.

"We don't want to go up against the AFL grand final replay if we can help it. I have spoken to David Kobritz [the club's deputy chairman] and there are some options. The game will be moved. We are not sure yet whether we will play it on the following Friday [October 8] or Sunday [October 10]."

That looks to be the best solution as it is a blank week in the A-League calendar because the Socceroos are in action on the Saturday evening [October 8] in Sydney when Holger Osieck's side takes on Paraguay. Few Heart or Victory players, if any, are likely to be involved.

Lyall Gorman, the chief executive of the A-League, said a speedy decision would be taken with the FFA anxious to maximise the impact of the first derby match.

"It's going to be a great occasion and we want it to be as big as possible. We have to talk to the clubs and the broadcasters but we are determined to ensure that this game is maximised as much as possible and we will be making a quick decision."

As for your last comment, the fact that it will be owned wholly and solely by the AFL, and that its tenants are paying for it - anything else is icing on the cake which is why both the 20/20 team and the Victory get better deals than the anchor tenants - is a lie to that.

And this is the same FFA that threatened to get the government to nationalise a private asset to get their own way. Arrogance goes both ways.

 

[Footy Smarts]

yeah lets not try to get too carried away here and make up stuff that i never said.

Ive never said soccer wasnt here to stay. Ive never said soccer was a minor sport. In fact I have advocated strongly elsewhere that it has certainly earnt its place.

My comments have been around the simple fact that the AFL has a legally binding contract, and that both the AFL and NRL have to deal with similar issues and are managing to do so without government intervention being asked for.

This is a classic case of you making winning an argument against a fictional opponent. Nobody, as far as I can see, has suggested that the AFL doesn't have the right to block out the a-league. That they're doing so clearly demonstrates that fact. But the discussion isn't about what the AFL can do it's about what the AFL should do. So now that we've established what the AFL can do what do you think they should do?

Hypothetically, say Victory wins the right to host Sydney in the aleague final. Looking at the table now that wouldn't exactly be a surprise if it happened. What do you think the AFL should do and what do you think FFA should do? Remember that this would be the showpiece aleague event between 2 of the best supported teams in the league and that match-up would almost certainly sell out ANZ stadium if the FFA decided to shift it there. They also have a contract with fox sports to hold the final on a Sunday and there would be huge inconvenience for traveling fans from holding it any day other than Saturday or Sunday.

So what should the FFA do and what should the AFL do?

Secondly how should the FFA have dealt with this issue differently in discussions with the AFL? Last year they gave a number of months notice to the AFL and were still shut out. When they request Etihad is left free for one day and the AFL refuses how are they supposed to "deal with" the issue? If the AFL's unwilling to give them access it's hard to see how the issue can be sorted out.

 

[Shoei]

how is promotion and relegation a waste of time? do you understand why it is used in every single country except here and usa? not having it keeps mediocre teams in the top league, when teams doing well should be rewarded. how can you say they will have 1 or 2 seasons max? what are you basing that off? yes there is definitely a difference in quality between a-league and state leagues but look at the difference, a-league players are FULL TIME, every day they are either training, playing a game or recovering. state league teams train 3-4 times a week, play on the weekend inbetween working or studying FULL TIME. of course there is gonna be a difference in quality, but the important thing here is to bridge that gap and this is the only way to do it.

people have been talking about the FFA Cup and what it does for clubs and players from state leagues in terms of exposure, so why is a 2nd national league that is a pathway to the a-league so different? in fact it is a far better way. we have 10 teams in this league, 1 being from NZ so that leaves not even 200 professional players who are Australian in this league. how can this country do well on the national stage when there is so little opportunity for young players to play professionally?

new fans, yes that could be an issue but clubs can certainly pull decent crowd numbers. Knights, South, Adl City, Syd Utd etc could all potentially draw bigger crowds than some of the a-league clubs. as for sponsorship, how do you think clubs survive these days in the state league? sponsorship and fundraisers, with the added exposure for the 2nd division and if the team gets promoted, i'm sure these will rise. plus the tv deal will be bigger than the current one due to more games (the current tv deal covers wages for clubs atm).

who said splitting the league into 2 divisions of 5 or 6 teams you donut. it would be 12-16 in the first division and the second division would have 12-20

Good rant.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to run an A-league team compared to a State league team?

Where are the second division teams going to get the money to travel across the country to play each other each week? These teams are made up of Armatures you donut! Are they going to give up their day jobs to travel from Perth to Melbourne to Sydney to Brisbane etc every second week?

Australia is a ****ing huge country that is sparsely populated unlike 99% of Europe. Promotion/relegation/2nd divisions haven't got a chance of surviving no matter what delusional ideals you have.

 

[mojito]

These teams are made up of Armatures you donut!

While I dont disagree with your broader point, this isn't strictly true. NPL competitions and their state affiliates are mandated semi-professional competitions*. Amateurs would slot in below this whole lot.

*willing to be corrected here.

 

[Footy Smarts]

Good rant.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to run an A-league team compared to a State league team?

Where are the second division teams going to get the money to travel across the country to play each other each week? These teams are made up of Armatures you donut! Are they going to give up their day jobs to travel from Perth to Melbourne to Sydney to Brisbane etc every second week?

Australia is a ******* huge country that is sparsely populated unlike 99% of Europe. Promotion/relegation/2nd divisions haven't got a chance of surviving no matter what delusional ideals you have.

The travel's really not that big a deal. Even if it costs $1000 per person for each away game and you take 30 people each time you'd still be looking at less than $500k per year in total travel costs. That's unlikely to be the difference between a viable and non-viable team in what would be a professional league. Any professional team would have way higher wages than that.

The real problem with promotion and relegation is that there isn't enough interest and it isn't widespread enough to support 20+ professional teams that would be required for that. Unless the 2nd division teams can attract 5k crowds and at least have some value in television rights then they'd just go bankrupt pretty quick.

 

[polo9]

Good rant.

Do you have any idea how much it costs to run an A-league team compared to a State league team?

Where are the second division teams going to get the money to travel across the country to play each other each week? These teams are made up of Armatures you donut! Are they going to give up their day jobs to travel from Perth to Melbourne to Sydney to Brisbane etc every second week?

Australia is a ******* huge country that is sparsely populated unlike 99% of Europe. Promotion/relegation/2nd divisions haven't got a chance of surviving no matter what delusional ideals you have.

where do the a-league teams get the money? sponsorship will come, the game will become bigger and travel costs won't be as big as an issue as you are making it out to be

these clubs will turn into professional teams (over time at least), so players would do this fulltime. that is one of the main reasons to have a 2nd division, so we can have more professional players

 

[Shoei]

The travel's really not that big a deal. Even if it costs $1000 per person for each away game and you take 30 people each time you'd still be looking at less than $500k per year in total travel costs. That's unlikely to be the difference between a viable and non-viable team in what would be a professional league. Any professional team would have way higher wages than that.

The real problem with promotion and relegation is that there isn't enough interest and it isn't widespread enough to support 20+ professional teams that would be required for that. Unless the 2nd division teams can attract 5k crowds and at least have some value in television rights then they'd just go bankrupt pretty quick.

Which is exactly my point?

Where's the money going to come from?

where do the a-league teams get the money? sponsorship will come, the game will become bigger and travel costs won't be as big as an issue as you are making it out to be

these clubs will turn into professional teams (over time at least), so players would do this fulltime. that is one of the main reasons to have a 2nd division, so we can have more professional players

That's like saying where does the AFL get the money from? Why doesn't the SANFL, WAFL, VFL etc etc not have the same money? Because nobody gives a shit about them anymore. There is no interest at all in lower division football. Australia does not have the population to spread support around.

Nobody is going to support or sponsor the 2nd division in any amount to make it worthwhile.

Maybe in 50 years a 2nd Division will be viable.

It wont be during my lifetime.

 

[NUFC Tiger]

I believe salary cap for current A League sides for the 14/15 season is about $2.55m (can be corrected if I'm wrong). You'd assume a second division would also have a salary cap and it'd need to be much much lower than this to be viable to most state league clubs.

I'd love to see promotion/relegation brought in one day but I believe the FFA will need to subsidise a lot of these clubs if they do that (going from semi pro to full time professional status would likely see a huge increase in operating costs). It would be nice in theory, though I'm not sure on its viability.

I hope the FFA don't throw substantial sums of dollars just for the sake of introducing it. If they're going to do it, they need to ensure they do it right and stick to their guns (no point introducing it only to scrap it 2-3 years down the track), much like the Gold Coast and Fury franchises, it would be nice to see them 'go the distance' in helping ensure it becomes a success.