The Association Football AFL Thread 3.0

[Jatz]

Maybe not but why wouldn't we try to get a player of that high a calibre?

Because I don't think you need to. You've got the nucleus of a good side. Another young star helps that along nicely.

By all means pick Larkey up some help, I just don't think you need to do that via a Max King.

 

[Jatz]

Wardlaw in particular is a ripper. I'm sure people of Jatz's ilk will be suddenly frothing about him in a year or two saying "Where's this come from?!" as if he's just popped into existence.

Yes, the rising star favourite is simply flying under the radar. Honestly.

 

[SM]

Because I don't think you need to. You've got the nucleus of a good side. Another young star helps that along nicely.

By all means pick Larkey up some help, I just don't think you need to do that via a Max King.

Isn't that what Max King is? He's in a bad environment but he's still shown all the attributes.

 

[SM]

Yes, the rising star favourite is simply flying under the radar. Honestly.

Hang on, he's actually good??

 

[RPCB]

Can you all slow down? I can’t read that fast.

 

[Sphynx]

Two of the best players in the comp and the non 'elite' version

Player

Age

Age_Decimal

RatingPoints_Avg

Supercoach_Avg

TimeOnGround

Kicks

Handballs

Disposals

DisposalEfficiency

Inside50s

Rebound50s

MetresGained

MetresGainedPerDisposal

Clangers

ContestedPossessions

UncontestedPossessions

ContestedPossessionRate

Intercepts

GroundBallGets

CentreBounceAttendancePercentage

TotalClearances

Marks

ContestedMarks

MarksInside50

Tackles

Goals_Total

Goals_Avg

Behinds

ShotsAtGoal

GoalAssists

ScoreInvolvements

ScoreInvolvementPercentage

ScoreLaunches

PressureActs

Errol Gulden

22​

22.45​

18.34​

128​

95​

22​

9.8​

31.8​

65.409​

6.8​

3.4​

643.2​

20.226​

3.8​

9.8​

21.2​

31.613​

6.2​

7.4​

27.273​

4​

6.2​

0​

0.2​

4.6​

3​

0.6​

1​

1.8​

1.4​

9.4​

34.058​

2.8​

20.4​

Harry Sheezel

20​

20.21​

18.94​

117.6​

85.2​

14.6​

10.8​

25.4​

70.079​

3.4​

2.8​

390.6​

15.378​

2.2​

11.6​

13.4​

46.4​

2.6​

8.8​

45.652​

3.8​

4.8​

0.6​

0.6​

4​

7​

1.4​

0​

1.4​

1.2​

5.4​

31.034​

1.8​

24​

Nick Daicos

21​

21.99​

19.76​

119​

84.4​

16.2​

12.4​

28.6​

66.434​

5.8​

1​

505​

17.657​

5.2​

16.6​

12​

58.042​

3.4​

9.6​

81.208​

8.8​

2.4​

0​

0.2​

3.6​

7​

1.4​

1.2​

2.8​

1.4​

7.6​

31.667​

2.8​

21​

 

[SM]

Two of the best players in the comp and the non 'elite' version

Player

Age

Age_Decimal

RatingPoints_Avg

Supercoach_Avg

TimeOnGround

Kicks

Handballs

Disposals

DisposalEfficiency

Inside50s

Rebound50s

MetresGained

MetresGainedPerDisposal

Clangers

ContestedPossessions

UncontestedPossessions

ContestedPossessionRate

Intercepts

GroundBallGets

CentreBounceAttendancePercentage

TotalClearances

Marks

ContestedMarks

MarksInside50

Tackles

Goals_Total

Goals_Avg

Behinds

ShotsAtGoal

GoalAssists

ScoreInvolvements

ScoreInvolvementPercentage

ScoreLaunches

PressureActs

Errol Gulden

22​

22.45​

18.34​

128​

95​

22​

9.8​

31.8​

65.409​

6.8​

3.4​

643.2​

20.226​

3.8​

9.8​

21.2​

31.613​

6.2​

7.4​

27.273​

4​

6.2​

0​

0.2​

4.6​

3​

0.6​

1​

1.8​

1.4​

9.4​

34.058​

2.8​

20.4​

Harry Sheezel

20​

20.21​

18.94​

117.6​

85.2​

14.6​

10.8​

25.4​

70.079​

3.4​

2.8​

390.6​

15.378​

2.2​

11.6​

13.4​

46.4​

2.6​

8.8​

45.652​

3.8​

4.8​

0.6​

0.6​

4​

7​

1.4​

0​

1.4​

1.2​

5.4​

31.034​

1.8​

24​

Nick Daicos

21​

21.99​

19.76​

119​

84.4​

16.2​

12.4​

28.6​

66.434​

5.8​

1​

505​

17.657​

5.2​

16.6​

12​

58.042​

3.4​

9.6​

81.208​

8.8​

2.4​

0​

0.2​

3.6​

7​

1.4​

1.2​

2.8​

1.4​

7.6​

31.667​

2.8​

21​

Daicos will get there eventually, give him a bit more time.

 

[Jatz]

Champion Data

 

[Sphynx]

Champion Data

Vs

 

[Jatz]

Vs

View attachment 2037454

Out of interest, are you expecting LDU to be AA?

 

[Sphynx]

Wardlaw in particular is a ripper. I'm sure people of Jatz's ilk will be suddenly frothing about him in a year or two saying "Where's this come from?!" as if he's just popped into existence.

Without a doubt discovered Jon Ralph's burner.

Going to check his Twitter account for any references of Leicester now.

 

[Sphynx]

Out of interest, are you expecting LDU to be AA?

No.

 

[Sphynx]

does this mean someone like sam flanders can be considered elite

Why would he?

Not there yet, but not too far away.

He's probably in the 50-100 group.

 

[SM]

does this mean someone like sam flanders can be considered elite

Flanders is actually pretty good.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

If you are North or St Kilda?

Draft small.
Poach tall.

Would take him in a heartbeat.

 

[Planet14]

Vs

View attachment 2037454

Champion data attempt to use pure statistical data to make subjective judgements. Data can inform an opinion, but the eye test holds weight too. Putting them together can provide an informed opinion. In isolation data produces players like Rankin and Holmes as top 10 players in the league.

 

[SM]

Champion data attempt to use pure statistical data to make subjective judgements. Data can inform an opinion, but the eye test holds weight too. Putting them together can provide an informed opinion. In isolation data produces players like Rankin and Holmes as top 10 players in the league.

Those are two pretty good players.

 

[Sphynx]

Champion data attempt to use pure statistical data to make subjective judgements. Data can inform an opinion, but the eye test holds weight too. Putting them together can provide an informed opinion. In isolation data produces players like Rankin and Holmes as top 10 players in the league.

Rankine HAS been a top 10 player in the comp recently.

I'd love to know what "eye" test fails in regards to Rankine.

He was just about the most hyped young player ever in what was one of the most anticipated drafts ever as well. He's also by far the best inside 50 stoppage scoring threat in the league. Double the next best. He regularly kicks amazing highlight reel goals off of stoppage inside 50.

There's the alternate opinion to your post also, often cited and referred to by Daniel Hoyne who heads up Champion Data, which is "the eye lies"

We often attribute bias to players, depending on teams they play for, positions they play, ugly kicking actions, how slow they might be etc. They might duck for free kicks or have a grating villain style personality.

The worst is around media and public viewing TV slots with CD often raising Connor Rozee as an example regarding this.

He has one of his best games of the year and one of the highest rated games of any player this season, on one of the highest rated games of the year, on prime time TV on Channel 7 during Gather Round.

A brilliant game, on a massive stage. One of the best performances of the season.

Most fans might only watch him 5 or 6 times a year, so this will often hold too much weight when forming an illinformed opinion anyway.

He's been largely rubbish for a big portion of games this year, but when Rozee's name is raised, people will think "superstar" because the game in gather round comes to mind instantly given it's public viewing numbers when reality he's been far from it this year.

People's opinions are often altered by individual awards like AA jerseys and Brownlow finishes. Subjective awards, completely biased by selectors with club allegiances etc and almost entirely reliant on their teams ladder position and performance of that year and irrelevant to how they could be going at that point in the following years or no explination how said player might have not been in the frame to be awarded these individual accolades previous years.

You might hate data, but it cuts through natural bias.

Jatz is a good example regarding LDU and his AA query, which is a perfectly reasonable one from afar.

The consideration being, LDU has never met the 80% games played threshold required for AA in his best 3 seasons. He's also played in a bottom 4 side, he also plays for one of the lowest drawing teams, all historical factors in something like AA selection.

Not that AA should be a factor in any way of forming an opinion on a player, but it's natural as fans to do it.

It's a perfect example of bias at play. LDU = No AA jersey = Opinion never been good enough for one.


Going back to Connor Rozee and AA's etc.

He's a 2 x AA.
He was 3rd in the Brownlow in 2023.

etc etc

CD have never had him in the top 70 players in the league at any point of his career.

Because he's a terrible kick.

I bet most people think he's a fantastic kick, a great user etc. He's got a very graceful kicking action and he's an athletic player that gets plenty of seperation.

Year on year for about 4 seasons he's been one of the biggest turnover and kick to contest merchants in the league through decision making and poor kicking execution and has been rated accordingly.

The eye lies.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Because I don't think you need to. You've got the nucleus of a good side. Another young star helps that along nicely.

By all means pick Larkey up some help, I just don't think you need to do that via a Max King.

Mate, that is a weird explanation. I don't think we need another mid and we are building defensive depth but desperately need another forward, especially if Zurhaar leaves.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Champion Data

Mate, watch Sheezel when you get a chance. He's scarily good and already elite.

 

[Jatz]

Mate, watch Sheezel when you get a chance. He's scarily good and already elite.

I have. My cousins are huge North fans. Great player.

I'm just more selective with the 'elite' category.

 

[Jatz]

Mate, that is a weird explanation. I don't think we need another mid and we are building defensive depth but desperately need another forward, especially if Zurhaar leaves.

Didn't say it needed to be another mid, just best available. You're not competing in the next couple of years, pick someone that can develop in that time.

I will say, if St Kilda lost Max, they really should just fold. Utterly pointless club in the competition.

 

[Jatz]

Won't be changing this season either. Been a long decade.

 

[SM]

View attachment 2037558

Won't be changing this season either. Been a long decade.

I just miss that winning feeling. It's been a long week.

 

[Planet14]

The eye lies.

So basically your argument is players can be assessed purely on stats? The "eye test" is understanding their specific role in the team, the game state, all sorts of variables stats don't capture. You need to use stats in conjunction with the what you observe of how those stats are accumulated.

You might hate data, but it cuts through natural bias.

Seriously?

Data can inform an opinion, but the eye test holds weight too. Putting them together can provide an informed opinion.

Less typing, more reading would be my recommendation. Stats have their place, but the game, indeed any competitive sport, is more complex. I don't think that should be a controversial opinion.