The Australian 6/8 - Teflon Dons escape drug bans

[Wooljay]

That's not entirely correct: http://www.sen.com.au/audioplayer/Audio/Is-AOD-9604-fit-for-human-consumption/8774

Can't really be bothered listening to all that, but the fact that it's even in contention on whether it's fit to give to humans or not is probably reason alone not to be injecting it into the stomachs of your players.

I still don't get how Essendon supporters are okay with this in any way.

 

[QuietB]

because it would preempt the investigation???

Like how the official media releases preempt the investigation? Like how unofficial media leaks preempt the investigation? Like how hiring your own medical team to test AOD for PED properties might pre-empt the investigation?

 

[jenny61_99]

Okay then chief, what act of "responsibility" do you think Essendon should perform so that you are satisifed?

We have already:
- Conducted an internal investigation
- Stood down several EFC staff
- Cooperated with ASADA/AFL throughout investigation
- Addressed the media

Owned up and taken full responsibility for this ****ing mess. All essendon has ever done through this is to try and appoint blame and find excuses.

 

[Gavstar]

and look what turning a blind eye has done to baseball or cycling

baseball faces very serious issues in attracting younger fans. people are turning away from the game

if we do not take a stand now our game will end up in exactly the same position in 20 years time

A-Rod being hit with a potential 219 game suspension may mean things are turning around?

Be very sad that baseball becomes a cleaner sport.

EDIT: You do know Vlad is speaking at a conference that the MLB were attending? Do you think he will want to chat to them about A-ROD?

 

[lysp]

LOL @ AFL . So Saad may get 2 years for drinking some type of protein drink with a banned substance in it by mistake and Watson will get off for admitting on National TV he was injected with a banned substance and had signed a consent form to have that happen.
I have said it all along different rules for different clubs , AFL are a joke plain and simple.

Exactly.The players have to be held accountable for what they ALLOWED into their systems.If Ahmed Saad is facing a 2 year ban for drinking a protein shake with a banned ingredient then how on this earth can Essendon players who admit being injected with Aod9604 even have a chance of getting a less severe punishment? Let alone the rest of the alleged "supplements"

The Afl and asada will be forever know to have gone soft on a real doping issue,in saying that i think it's about damage control and dollars for afl house so they are/will manipulate the results to their benefit

Late reply, but haven't made my way through all of this thread yet, so will catch up on the rest of the posts later.

With the above 2 quotes, calling it a "protein shake" is not right.

He took a pre-workout powder (which contains little to no protein). Pre-workout powders are essentially stimulant combinations/stacks. Preworkouts are well known to contain ingredients that are not wada approved (such as dmaa which 7-8 months ago was banned for all people, not just athletes).

Using the description of what he is alleged to have taken:

Viking Protein [brand name] BEFORE BATTLE [product name] is a quality Australian made pre-workout supplement that is specially formulated to increase energy levels, endurance, focus and enhance drive and muscular pumps. Take BEFORE BATTLE pre-training and get your blood pumping.

So taking that, you are knowing full well that you are going to get a stim/buzz effect from it and no one would mistake it for a standard protein powder.

If you look at the ingredients it basically contains 6 calories, no carbs, no fats, trace amounts of protein and a big ingredient list of chemical sounding compounds:

I could understand if it was an added ingredient of a standard protein powder, but this product is purely made to give you an edge/waken you up and when it contains a list of 10 odd ingredients which 99% of people would not know what they are by their scientific names, then you'd perhaps think twice.

 

[Despair]

Owned up and taken full responsibility for this ******* mess. All essendon has ever done through this is to try and appoint blame and find excuses.

Owned up would imply guilt. We have no guilt, we have done nothing wrong.

Please don't put my innocent club in the same bracket as your cheating club Adelaide FC (salary cap)

"he who is without sin shall cast the first stone"

 

[tigerfan11]

the investigation is conducted by, wait for it, the investigators. Who are?...

WADA can review all they like. They can ensure protocols are followed. They can ensure outcomes are uniform. But they are not conducting the investigation. If the investigation doesn't lead to the ADVRP recommending infractions then WADA can't do shit.

I don't know what you think WADA are, but they are not an omnipotent entity.

i never said they were going to recommend infractions. actually read what i write, not what you think i say. i simply pointed out their power lies in ensuring that if there is anything they want investigated, they will make sure ASADA do it so they are satisfied things have been done thoroughly. ie they will be looking over their shoulder. never mentioned they had any role in saying what infractions must be issued etc, or that they can issue them themselves. don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Alfred E Neuman]

Good one!! thumbsup
Except how is it ironic that we feel ripped off that your club may get away with.. Before you give me the same old speal, even at best for your club there has been a sevre breakdown of governance surely that deserves some punishment. The ziggy report referred to it as a 'pharmacologically experimental environment'? Your happy with the possibility they may have been injecting one of the best players in the league (brownlow medalist) with experimental drugs (that do nothing apparently). Bombers fans have no leg to stand on with claims of irony.

Thanks Pal!

If you bother reading the thread you'll see that I have previously written:

" If EFC are found to have been taking any PEDs, we should take our medicine. If not, we should be penalised only for the lax corporate governance - i.e a fine and at absolute worst draft picks for a year. Anything else for bad corporate governance is not a fair punishment."

The irony was in your calling out ignorance, when that is exactly what you and TBH, what 99% of punters (myself included) are. When we have absorbed the findings of the report, and not just the ravings of Caro and co, then we'll be able to make a considered response to this whole sorry saga.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

This is an interim report, the investigation is still on-going. They will not be infracted, if at all, until the whole thing is done. That could be months. Still to interview Danks, still alot of dots to join in regards to evidence they probably have in regards, to emails, texts, invoices, consents forms etc as I mentioned a few posts above. Without positive tests this takes a long time, as Armstrong found, but like the Essendon slogan, if ASADA suspect anything it'll be whatever it takes to get the evidence. If they felt there wasn't much the investigation would be done by now and you'd be clear.

They can even infract the club just for having it on the premises even without using it.

As I've said repeatedly, they have now shifted their attention to the NRL. They aren't working on the AFL anymore.

And, just for me, can you show me the specific section of the AFL anti doping code that says ASADA can infract a club for just having a substance on the premises? Thanks, and good luck

 

[natio]

As far as I understand it, ASADA does the investigation, penalty is applied by the sports body or ASADA, WADA either appeals the penalty or doesn't. WADA otherwise has no involvement, unless it's a big case like Armstrong or events like the Olympics, but even then they let others do the work for them.

If ASADA's investigation turns up nothing, what can WADA do?

They are effectively powerless. This is what a few of us have been saying for a while - they are quite limited in what they can say or do. There first has to be a finding of doping for WADA to do anything.

Incorrect. Read section 13 of the code, it's too long but this is one of the sections...
Failure to Render a Timely Decision
by an Anti-Doping Organization
Where, in a particular case, an Anti-Doping Organization fails to render a decision with respect to whether an anti-doping rule violation was committed within a reasonable deadline set by WADA, WADA may
elect to appeal directly to CAS as if the Anti-Doping Organization had rendered a decision finding no antidoping rule violation. If the CAS hearing panel determines that an anti-doping rule violation..."

WADA can appeal either a "no" anti-doping violation by a national anti-doping organisation (i.e ASADA) or a failure to bring a anti-doping violation. Other sections in section 13 of the code also cover this.

 

[Oscarman]

If the AFL take our points away, then the rest of the report is complete and no Essendon player gets an infraction notice, taking points no longer fits the crime.

This is the problem the AFL have, and they effectively have to make a calculated guess on whether there will be infraction notices issued to players based on what is in the report. If as has been speculated the interim report is about governance and not doping, it's not an easy decision. On the other side, I'm not sure if it's a good look if the Bombers play finals, potentially winning the flag (current form notwithstanding) then after the season it comes out that doping did occur.

Do they go hard now and maybe overdo it, or do nothing and hope everything is clear? Glad it's not my decision to make.

 

[DudleyB]

the key word here is 'interim'

Bombers fans cracking the Champagne and talking tough are going way too soon!

 

[PieBeast]

Been all for players being spared right from the start but this article is a waste of space and nothing but fodder for Essendon supporters based purely on spin from the club.

Nathan Bock is playing and hasn't been issued an infraction notice, these things take a lot of time and the interim report's purpose is to enable the AFL to act prior to September.

I'm far more interested in Ricciuto reiterating his mail this morning

 

[jenny61_99]

Owned up would imply guilt. We have no guilt, we have done nothing wrong.

Please don't put my innocent club in the same bracket as your cheating club Adelaide FC (salary cap)

"he who is without sin shall cast the first stone"

You've forgotten your far worse salary cap breaches conveniently.

 

[Alfred E Neuman]

Can't really be bothered listening to all that, but the fact that it's even in contention on whether it's fit to give to humans or not is probably reason alone not to be injecting it into the stomachs of your players.

I still don't get how Essendon supporters are okay with this in any way.

Do you know for a fact that's what they were injecting into the players' stomachs?

 

[blackshadow]

So are you saying that if there are no infractions against individual players that no report should be produced.

For example A coach/official states ,TB4 was used in our program but I am unsure what players were administered the substance and no records were kept. Obviously no players can receive an infraction but an Anti doping Violation has been committed by the club. I am not saying this has happened but do you honestly believe it is not a possibility.

If that's the case the club should cop a 2 year ban if it's for more than 2 players.

Players should be put into the draft (and potentially sue club for loss of earnings).

Once the club suspension is served the club would need to rebuild via draft and free agency (no Suns/GWS draft/salary cap advantage).

Any coaches or officials responsible for the oversight or approval of the program banned from football for a minimum 5 years.

Unfortunately I doubt the AFL would have the balls to do this.

 

[Jobe Watson]

you're right, but they actually can't take as long as they want, in reality. They have finite resources, which have all been focused on the AFL until last week. As of last week, ASADA's focus moves to the NRL. And any other investigations that may come up.

Agreed.

ASADA can keep the investigation open in the hope that Dank suddenly changes his tune and spills the beans. They'll be very disappointed when he doesn't.

Essendon investigation is as good as done.

 

[Ceanag]

The world is watching ....

http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/08/06/doping-australia-idINDEE97502020130806
Doping-Cloud still over Australia six months after 'blackest day'

 

[Linda Lovelace]

Mark is?

Honestly, does anyone really think Ricciuto would air this stuff if he wasn't 100% sure that his source knows something we don't? I don't know much about his media cred but surely you don't go off half-cocked with something like that unless there is some truth to it.

His best mate works at Essendon, there's the source. Now why on earth are there people at Essendon talking about Hird standing down if he has done nothing wrong?

Deluded respondents need not reply to this thanks, I can't handle anymore spin from Bomber people.

Did Ricciuto supply any 'good stuff' in exchange for this information?

I am sure Ricciuto was told something by someone important. But it was 3rd hand information anyway. Ricciuto's source was, according to him, someone who TALKED to someone who would know. Not the original person making the claim. If you can't get the information straight from the source and find some corroborating statements from other sources, don't report it.

That is why the media has behaved so poorly throughout this. They are all going off unnamed sources. And this means they should be completely unaccountable for what they say? As long as you aren't exactly lying, you should be allowed to report completely slanderous allegations, and then refuse to name your source?

There is a reason you don't believe, or report, everything your hear. You don't have to be lying to be talking sh*t.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

the key word here is 'interim'

Bombers fans cracking the Champagne and talking tough are going way too soon!

As you have for the last 6 months.

 

[natio]

But what LU is saying is that WADA will intervene where there is clearcut evidence of a breach followed by an insufficient penalty.

Where the evidence doesn't exist - they have no power to intervene.

WADA can appeal almost an finding of a National Anti-doping Organisation finding including a finding of "no" doping and no issue of infractions by a national body (.i.e ASADA). It's in section 13.2 of the WADA code. It's too long to post the 2 or 3 relevant sections but it's worth having a look.

This idea that WADA can only appeal the severity of an infraction notice is complete bull***t. Otherwise, consider how many national anti-doping orgs could corruptly just allow doping and WADA couldn't do anything.

 

[Armchair Critic]

If that's the case the club should cop a 2 year ban if it's for more than 2 players.

Players should be put into the draft (and potentially sue club for loss of earnings).

Once the club suspension is served the club would need to rebuild via draft and free agency (no Suns/GWS draft/salary cap advantage).

Unfortunately I doubt the AFL would have the balls to do this.

I am not saying this happened. I am merely pointing out just because ASADA cannot issue club based sanctions does not mean they have to leave out evidence in relation to the club breaching Anti Doping Violations

Everyone is so focused on individual sanctions ,when ASADA was asked to investigate they were asked to investigate the club.

If no proof of individual infractions can be obtained through lack of evidence does not mean there is a lack of evidence of Anti Doping violations from Essendon FC.

 

[ibra]

Well in that case...

AS I said - done and dusted.

No, government is passing legislation which will give more coercive powers. From memory it is something like a fine of $5000 per day for a person who refuses to give evidence. So i guess watch this space.

 

[clogged]

Incorrect. Read section 13 of the code, it's too long but this is one of the sections...
Failure to Render a Timely Decision
by an Anti-Doping Organization
Where, in a particular case, an Anti-Doping Organization fails to render a decision with respect to whether an anti-doping rule violation was committed within a reasonable deadline set by WADA, WADA may
elect to appeal directly to CAS as if the Anti-Doping Organization had rendered a decision finding no antidoping rule violation. If the CAS hearing panel determines that an anti-doping rule violation..."

WADA can appeal either a "no" anti-doping violation by a national anti-doping organisation (i.e ASADA) or a failure to bring a anti-doping violation. Other sections in section 13 of the code also cover this.

WADA still have to go by evidence sourced by ASADA. Beyond what ASADA have uncovered WADA are limited by the investigation.

ASADA could front up and say they found no evidence of doping by Essendon players, but that a lot of their practices skirted the line of the code. How can WADA appeal that? What greater evidence do they have available to them?

 

[East coast eagle]

Thanks Pal!

If you bother reading the thread you'll see that I have previously written:

" If EFC are found to have been taking any PEDs, we should take our medicine. If not, we should be penalised only for the lax corporate governance - i.e a fine and at absolute worst draft picks for a year. Anything else for bad corporate governance is not a fair punishment."

The irony was in your calling out ignorance, when that is exactly what you and TBH, what 99% of punters (myself included) are. When we have absorbed the findings of the report, and not just the ravings of Caro and co, then we'll be able to make a considered response to this whole sorry saga.

Wow great use of condescending terms such as pal and chief. Did it make you feel superior when you typed it? Cos you should have.. Champ
Fair point though, I have read the thread. I'm sorry I didn't remember your one post from the hundreds of ignorant posts from delusional bombers fans..
I'll try harder next time boss..