Opinion The day basketball killed AFL

[larrikan]

I have hated watching some Pies games this year. I've been following them for 50 years. I have coached football and basketball at junior levels. I hate the new basketball AFL. I am not referring to the players style but the coaching.

I was at a TAC team HQ last week and saw posters all around the walls for game plays and it dawned on me that i was looking at a basketball court shaped as an oval.

Here's a novel idea - how about putting all players back in traditional football positions, then when a player looks up the ground he has someone to kick to on the lead. What's wrong with this? How does every player following the ball 'basketball style' increase the chances of scoring?

Even commentators use basketball terms: ZONES, TRANSITION, FAST BREAKS, DEFENCE, OFFENCE, SUBS, GAMEPLAY etc. instead of forward line, backline...

Catch instead of a "mark"?, give me a break!

Some of our players do look stupid because at the half back line they look up and have no one to kick to. It is common to dish of a little handball or retreat backwards.

NOT EVEN BASKETBALL LETS THE OFFENCE CROSS BACK INTO THE BACKCOURT ONCE THEY CROSS THE MIDCOURT LINE.

Last night Nick Reiwoldt stood at FULL FORWARD while the basketball game was played. The commentators were screaming that he had snuck off on his own. NO! He was playing full forward - it used to be a position. The FULL BACK should have been next to him. He wasn't because apparently now Riewoldt plays on the wing!

The FOOTball is now forced across the boundary line to set up stoppages and set basketball game plans. Players need to remember exactly where they are supposed to be. It's not a simple game of footy anymore.

Our great skills of goal kicking, high marking at a contest, passing are superfluous to the strategies.

A basketball court is 29 metres long; a football field is approx. 160 metres long.

Most of our players are running at intensity for 10 to 15km per game every week. Of course, you can miss a goal when you've just run a kilometre to get the ball 45 metres out. How many times do you see players trying to catch their breath before lining up for goal?

Players aren't robots. Have you ever gone to work feeling just a little off colour or tired? Our players need to be at their peak every game to cope.

Don't get me started on on soccer being called football here in Australia either. Football is AFL in this country. Soccer is soccer. Their is only one 'football' code in Australia.

The worst game I watched this year was when we played WC. It was a basketball game. Players swarming from end to end - one team playing offence, the other playing defence.

Bucks wants all our players playing basketball defence. It hasn't worked. For the second year in a row we could not sustain it for the full season. It has caused injuries to our under developed young players and affected our goal kicking.

Of course, our young backline look like idiots. They get 'possession' and look up to no 'outlets' so they 'pivot' and 'handoff' to the next closest player.

Bucks is a basketball coach thinking he and others like him are innovators. Just as a novel idea, mate, how about putting everyone back in their positions 'man on man'. Because man on man defence is another basketball strategy that we don't seem to adapt to. Zones are only part of a basketball strategy.

So what is Luke Beveridge doing with the Bulldogs young team? Well, he has them playing football against the basketball strategies resulting in big scores. Pretty simple really; have a Full Forward and Centre half forward and kick it to them then if they drop the mark the Forward Pockets and Half Forward Flankers crumb the goals.

On TV, the true demise of our great game is not visible because you cannot see the 75 metres of vacant forward space. It looks like our players are under pressure making stupid mistakes.

I can't wait until the Collingwood Basketball franchise starts up because we have a coach and captain that will make the transition very easily.

Maybe by then, a football coach will be available who will make players accountable for their direct opponents and actions.

Seriously, do we have to bring in netball zones to keep players in positions? Eliminate the interchange? How about no more "subs", just a good old 19th and 20th man as reserves.

Should I start on the basic football rules; in the back, around the neck, holding the ball, dropping the ball, holding the man? Don't get me started!

Anyway, that is my Sunday morning diatribe. It is my opinion and I am happy for you to disagree.

I just thought I'd write something different than the 'execute' everyone at the club rants that I am reading lately. Thousands of BF posts don't make you an expert. Give the players some leniency for trying to play basketball and football - two entirely different games - every week.

 

[CFC2010]

Love your Sunday morning diatribe larrikin.......Great read

 

[Robroy22]

Yep excellent reading....well done sir.

 

[legendstatus]

Post too long to read.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Ant85]

Post too long to read.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It's not really, he just used a lot of paragraph breaks so it seems long.

Good post, nonetheless, and completely agree. I'm all for making it mandatory for teams to leave a forward and defender in each of the 50m arcs at all times.

 

[suspect footskills]

A better read than anything masquerading as journalism in the major papers today. Nice work mate.

 

[Good_Old]

"BLOODY MAN UP!"

 

[1892]

Am interesting take on things especially for someone who doesn't take any interest in basketball.

At the very least in terms of the 'pies style I'd like to see someone remain in either goal square/50. Would help minimise the opposition goal over the top and give us a target when we get the ball back.

 

[FireKrakouer]

It is an ugly spectacle watching the players all follow the ball like ants fighting over a crumb of food. I'm not sold that playing man on man, old skool footy would be effective anymore though.

 

[cleomenes]

You can look back in anger at Dimitriou, who was the architect of paddock basketball. I would love to see the game played as the positional game it once was, and the obvious rule changes (reversions) would partially achieve it. The increased fitness, endurance and skill of players won't go away however, unless the game goes amateur, and so, sadly, the great spectacle of footy is lost forever.
I am a firm believer that the code's administrators need to go back to the rules pre 1960 and start from there. Keep the changes that have been good for the game (out on the full, centre square, deliberate rushing behinds, holding the ball if bouncing when tackled etc.) All of these were introduced to counter tactics that were damaging the game. Dump the changes that were introduced to speed the game up (it was already fast enough). Alter interchange so that it ONLY allows injured players to be substituted. Any other changes are permanent.
Have a close look at how push in the back and holding the ball decisions were made back then and return to that.
Remember that there is a rule against shepherding when the ball is not within 5 metres, and apply it rigorously to marking contests.

 

[Pie_fan92]

I would say that the game is becoming alot more Americanized than just basketball exclusively. It appears that a mixture of Gridiron and basketball is in play.

someone can correct me here as my knowledge on NFL is limited but I say gridiron because defensive set ups are similar where the safety's will cover specific parts of the ground and block/cut off wide receivers running routes (like a full forwards leading patterns). I have heard AFL commentators refer to half back flankers as the "quarter back role" (think Luke Hodge).

It does annoy me a bit but we have borrowed so much from American Sports (draft and trade period, free agency etc) that this was bound to happen.

 

[Quicky]

I have hated watching some Pies games this year. I've been following them for 50 years. I have coached football and basketball at junior levels. I hate the new basketball AFL. I am not referring to the players style but the coaching.

I was at a TAC team HQ last week and saw posters all around the walls for game plays and it dawned on me that i was looking at a basketball court shaped as an oval.

Here's a novel idea - how about putting all players back in traditional football positions, then when a player looks up the ground he has someone to kick to on the lead. What's wrong with this? How does every player following the ball 'basketball style' increase the chances of scoring?

Even commentators use basketball terms: ZONES, TRANSITION, FAST BREAKS, DEFENCE, OFFENCE, SUBS, GAMEPLAY etc. instead of forward line, backline...

Catch instead of a "mark"?, give me a break!

Some of our players do look stupid because at the half back line they look up and have no one to kick to. It is common to dish of a little handball or retreat backwards.

NOT EVEN BASKETBALL LETS THE OFFENCE CROSS BACK INTO THE BACKCOURT ONCE THEY CROSS THE MIDCOURT LINE.

Last night Nick Reiwoldt stood at FULL FORWARD while the basketball game was played. The commentators were screaming that he had snuck off on his own. NO! He was playing full forward - it used to be a position. The FULL BACK should have been next to him. He wasn't because apparently now Riewoldt plays on the wing!

The FOOTball is now forced across the boundary line to set up stoppages and set basketball game plans. Players need to remember exactly where they are supposed to be. It's not a simple game of footy anymore.

Our great skills of goal kicking, high marking at a contest, passing are superfluous to the strategies.

A basketball court is 29 metres long; a football field is approx. 160 metres long.

Most of our players are running at intensity for 10 to 15km per game every week. Of course, you can miss a goal when you've just run a kilometre to get the ball 45 metres out. How many times do you see players trying to catch their breath before lining up for goal?

Players aren't robots. Have you ever gone to work feeling just a little off colour or tired? Our players need to be at their peak every game to cope.

Don't get me started on on soccer being called football here in Australia either. Football is AFL in this country. Soccer is soccer. Their is only one 'football' code in Australia.

The worst game I watched this year was when we played WC. It was a basketball game. Players swarming from end to end - one team playing offence, the other playing defence.

Bucks wants all our players playing basketball defence. It hasn't worked. For the second year in a row we could not sustain it for the full season. It has caused injuries to our under developed young players and affected our goal kicking.

Of course, our young backline look like idiots. They get 'possession' and look up to no 'outlets' so they 'pivot' and 'handoff' to the next closest player.

Bucks is a basketball coach thinking he and others like him are innovators. Just as a novel idea, mate, how about putting everyone back in their positions 'man on man'. Because man on man defence is another basketball strategy that we don't seem to adapt to. Zones are only part of a basketball strategy.

So what is Luke Beveridge doing with the Bulldogs young team? Well, he has them playing football against the basketball strategies resulting in big scores. Pretty simple really; have a Full Forward and Centre half forward and kick it to them then if they drop the mark the Forward Pockets and Half Forward Flankers crumb the goals.

On TV, the true demise of our great game is not visible because you cannot see the 75 metres of vacant forward space. It looks like our players are under pressure making stupid mistakes.

I can't wait until the Collingwood Basketball franchise starts up because we have a coach and captain that will make the transition very easily.

Maybe by then, a football coach will be available who will make players accountable for their direct opponents and actions.

Seriously, do we have to bring in netball zones to keep players in positions? Eliminate the interchange? How about no more "subs", just a good old 19th and 20th man as reserves.

Should I start on the basic football rules; in the back, around the neck, holding the ball, dropping the ball, holding the man? Don't get me started!

Anyway, that is my Sunday morning diatribe. It is my opinion and I am happy for you to disagree.

I just thought I'd write something different than the 'execute' everyone at the club rants that I am reading lately. Thousands of BF posts don't make you an expert. Give the players some leniency for trying to play basketball and football - two entirely different games - every week.

I agree with much of the gist of your diatribe larrikan. I am quite seriously hating the football I am currently watching. These zones are making footy far too congested, far too scrappy and as a result footy has lost a lot it's soul in the process. What I disagree with, is that I think your anger is aimed in the wrong direction. This isn't Buckley's fault, this is a league wide theme. Traditional positional play quite seriously will no longer beat these zone systems that are being implemented, so you can't blame a coach for wandering away from it.

I touched on this in another thread, if you look at the history of changing tactics zonal plays began and were possible as a result of a rise in the interchange rotations. Prior to 2005 interchanges seemed to be self-limited to around 30 a game. When these began to rise players were able to run harder for longer and zones through the back line, midfield and forward line were implemented. Nowadays we get these rolling mauls which you quite articulately describe as "the new basketball AFL". Now the zone is here, I don't see how AFL coaches are ever going to be able to go back to your traditional positional play. To do that, I think you would need to regulate the number of interchanges you are allowed in a game to something closer to 30 or 40.

I think some other minor tweaks that would help is to bring back the incorrect disposal free kick and to start awarding the tackler more often. This would help break up those situations where you get an entire scrum of players around the footy, having the extreme difficulty of moving it out of the pack.

 

[alfio]

The easy back end layups (goals) that we give up weekly. Quite disturbing

 

[100volt1]

It's not really, he just used a lot of paragraph breaks so it seems long.

Too long for a Sunday morning

 

[1892]

You can look back in anger at Dimitriou, who was the architect of paddock basketball. I would love to see the game played as the positional game it once was, and the obvious rule changes (reversions) would partially achieve it. The increased fitness, endurance and skill of players won't go away however, unless the game goes amateur, and so, sadly, the great spectacle of footy is lost forever.
I am a firm believer that the code's administrators need to go back to the rules pre 1960 and start from there. Keep the changes that have been good for the game (out on the full, centre square, deliberate rushing behinds, holding the ball if bouncing when tackled etc.) All of these were introduced to counter tactics that were damaging the game. Dump the changes that were introduced to speed the game up (it was already fast enough). Alter interchange so that it ONLY allows injured players to be substituted. Any other changes are permanent.
Have a close look at how push in the back and holding the ball decisions were made back then and return to that.
Remember that there is a rule against shepherding when the ball is not within 5 metres, and apply it rigorously to marking contests.

The only possible way to overcome this would be Leigh Matthews' suggestion of reducing the number of players on the ground. I think it's worth a try in the preseason.

 

[larrikan]

I agree with much of the gist of your diatribe larrikan. I am quite seriously hating the football I am currently watching. These zones are making footy far too congested, far too scrappy and as a result footy has lost a lot it's soul in the process. What I disagree with, is that I think your anger is aimed in the wrong direction. This isn't Buckley's fault, this is a league wide theme. Traditional positional play quite seriously will no longer beat these zone systems that are being implemented, so you can't blame a coach for wandering away from it.

I touched on this in another thread, if you look at the history of changing tactics zonal plays began and were possible as a result of a rise in the interchange rotations. Prior to 2005 interchanges seemed to be self-limited to around 30 a game. When these began to rise players were able to run harder for longer and zones through the back line, midfield and forward line were implemented. Nowadays we get these rolling mauls which you quite articulately describe as "the new basketball AFL". Now the zone is here, I don't see how AFL coaches are ever going to be able to go back to your traditional positional play. To do that, I think you would need to regulate the number of interchanges you are allowed in a game to something closer to 30 or 40.

I think some other minor tweaks that would help is to bring back the incorrect disposal free kick and to start awarding the tackler more often. This would help break up those situations where you get an entire scrum of players around the footy, having the extreme difficulty of moving it out of the pack.

I agree with you Quicky that it's not Buckley's fault. The game has tactically moved away from tradition. I was really pointing out how much, even the terminology, we have borrowed from basketball and, as pointed out, American football (especially the slingshot resembling quarterback to wide receiver passing). It's really Buck's job and his coaching staff to find something that works for the younger players that doesn't leave us so exposed when we are not ALL defending in the rolling swarm. Basically, the AFL ground dimensions are not suited to basketball plays. It ruins the spectacle and tests the fitness of young players at this end of the season. Supporters need to realise some of the mistakes in the backline/defensive half are a result of No options ahead. It's almost like they can't be offside, like soccer.

 

[larrikan]

Am interesting take on things especially for someone who doesn't take any interest in basketball.

At the very least in terms of the 'pies style I'd like to see someone remain in either goal square/50. Would help minimise the opposition goal over the top and give us a target when we get the ball back.

I would have loved to watch Moore with his speed and skill be "one on one" in the forward line yesterday.

 

[Bard]

Disagree with most points regarding the blame on the coaches, when it's their job to win not appease the audience (sadly) but was a good read

 

[larrikan]

Disagree with most points regarding the blame on the coaches, when it's their job to win not appease the audience (sadly) but was a good read

I agree it's the coaches job to win. I was pointing out the degree to which we have used basketball tactics and terms to change the game. As far as winning goes: our past two seasons have followed the same path. Port Adelaide blame their poor results this season on not being able to sustain the running defensive pressure of last season. Clarkson is a brilliant coach but as Leigh Matthews says a coach is only as good as his players. Now, we have Clarkson clones all over the AFL, let's try reinvent the wheel and look back at how footy used to be played. I am not a traditionalist. Just wondering why transitions, zones, catches, defence and offence etc. infiltrated our football vernacular. The football department's job is to WIN. Let's win! lol

 

[larrikan]

I agree with much of the gist of your diatribe larrikan. I am quite seriously hating the football I am currently watching. These zones are making footy far too congested, far too scrappy and as a result footy has lost a lot it's soul in the process. What I disagree with, is that I think your anger is aimed in the wrong direction. This isn't Buckley's fault, this is a league wide theme. Traditional positional play quite seriously will no longer beat these zone systems that are being implemented, so you can't blame a coach for wandering away from it.

I touched on this in another thread, if you look at the history of changing tactics zonal plays began and were possible as a result of a rise in the interchange rotations. Prior to 2005 interchanges seemed to be self-limited to around 30 a game. When these began to rise players were able to run harder for longer and zones through the back line, midfield and forward line were implemented. Nowadays we get these rolling mauls which you quite articulately describe as "the new basketball AFL". Now the zone is here, I don't see how AFL coaches are ever going to be able to go back to your traditional positional play. To do that, I think you would need to regulate the number of interchanges you are allowed in a game to something closer to 30 or 40.

I think some other minor tweaks that would help is to bring back the incorrect disposal free kick and to start awarding the tackler more often. This would help break up those situations where you get an entire scrum of players around the footy, having the extreme difficulty of moving it out of the pack.

Is it the Players Association that won't allow a greater reduction of the interchange rotations due to the injury risk, Quicky? It's funny that the rules get changed by former players who have just finished playing the game.

 

[Kappa]

I have hated watching some Pies games this year. I've been following them for 50 years. I have coached football and basketball at junior levels. I hate the new basketball AFL. I am not referring to the players style but the coaching.

I was at a TAC team HQ last week and saw posters all around the walls for game plays and it dawned on me that i was looking at a basketball court shaped as an oval.

Here's a novel idea - how about putting all players back in traditional football positions, then when a player looks up the ground he has someone to kick to on the lead. What's wrong with this? How does every player following the ball 'basketball style' increase the chances of scoring?

Even commentators use basketball terms: ZONES, TRANSITION, FAST BREAKS, DEFENCE, OFFENCE, SUBS, GAMEPLAY etc. instead of forward line, backline...

Catch instead of a "mark"?, give me a break!

Some of our players do look stupid because at the half back line they look up and have no one to kick to. It is common to dish of a little handball or retreat backwards.

NOT EVEN BASKETBALL LETS THE OFFENCE CROSS BACK INTO THE BACKCOURT ONCE THEY CROSS THE MIDCOURT LINE.

Last night Nick Reiwoldt stood at FULL FORWARD while the basketball game was played. The commentators were screaming that he had snuck off on his own. NO! He was playing full forward - it used to be a position. The FULL BACK should have been next to him. He wasn't because apparently now Riewoldt plays on the wing!

The FOOTball is now forced across the boundary line to set up stoppages and set basketball game plans. Players need to remember exactly where they are supposed to be. It's not a simple game of footy anymore.

Our great skills of goal kicking, high marking at a contest, passing are superfluous to the strategies.

A basketball court is 29 metres long; a football field is approx. 160 metres long.

Most of our players are running at intensity for 10 to 15km per game every week. Of course, you can miss a goal when you've just run a kilometre to get the ball 45 metres out. How many times do you see players trying to catch their breath before lining up for goal?

Players aren't robots. Have you ever gone to work feeling just a little off colour or tired? Our players need to be at their peak every game to cope.

Don't get me started on on soccer being called football here in Australia either. Football is AFL in this country. Soccer is soccer. Their is only one 'football' code in Australia.

The worst game I watched this year was when we played WC. It was a basketball game. Players swarming from end to end - one team playing offence, the other playing defence.

Bucks wants all our players playing basketball defence. It hasn't worked. For the second year in a row we could not sustain it for the full season. It has caused injuries to our under developed young players and affected our goal kicking.

Of course, our young backline look like idiots. They get 'possession' and look up to no 'outlets' so they 'pivot' and 'handoff' to the next closest player.

Bucks is a basketball coach thinking he and others like him are innovators. Just as a novel idea, mate, how about putting everyone back in their positions 'man on man'. Because man on man defence is another basketball strategy that we don't seem to adapt to. Zones are only part of a basketball strategy.

So what is Luke Beveridge doing with the Bulldogs young team? Well, he has them playing football against the basketball strategies resulting in big scores. Pretty simple really; have a Full Forward and Centre half forward and kick it to them then if they drop the mark the Forward Pockets and Half Forward Flankers crumb the goals.

On TV, the true demise of our great game is not visible because you cannot see the 75 metres of vacant forward space. It looks like our players are under pressure making stupid mistakes.

I can't wait until the Collingwood Basketball franchise starts up because we have a coach and captain that will make the transition very easily.

Maybe by then, a football coach will be available who will make players accountable for their direct opponents and actions.

Seriously, do we have to bring in netball zones to keep players in positions? Eliminate the interchange? How about no more "subs", just a good old 19th and 20th man as reserves.

Should I start on the basic football rules; in the back, around the neck, holding the ball, dropping the ball, holding the man? Don't get me started!

Anyway, that is my Sunday morning diatribe. It is my opinion and I am happy for you to disagree.

I just thought I'd write something different than the 'execute' everyone at the club rants that I am reading lately. Thousands of BF posts don't make you an expert. Give the players some leniency for trying to play basketball and football - two entirely different games - every week.

This post reminds me of that old guy at the footy who keeps yelling out "JUST KICK THE BLOODY THING" when teams are trying to work through a zone or do a switch.

 

[Baird]

This post reminds me of that old guy at the footy who keeps yelling out "JUST KICK THE BLOODY THING" when teams are trying to work through a zone or do a switch.

and then when it's turned over

"WHO WAS THAT TOO?"

 

[Quicky]

Is it the Players Association that won't allow a greater reduction of the interchange rotations due to the injury risk, Quicky? It's funny that the rules get changed by former players who have just finished playing the game.

I'm not 100% sure but I think you're right. The concern is the injuries. You fatigue and are more likely to do soft tissue injuries. That is a legitimate argument if the same tactics continue to be implemented. However I don't think the same tactic would be a viable option if there is a significant limitation on interchanges.

I'm not saying its the answer, and typically I'm not supportive of AFL intervention in these things, but its the only feasible way I can think of bringing back the positional play which we grew up with.

 

[BlackWhiteBlood]

This post reminds me of that old guy at the footy who keeps yelling out "JUST KICK THE BLOODY THING" when teams are trying to work through a zone or do a switch.

Had this yesterday, whenever the kick went backwards said fan yelled for F%cks sake kick it forward.

 

[Pie_fan92]

I agree it's the coaches job to win. I was pointing out the degree to which we have used basketball tactics and terms to change the game. As far as winning goes: our past two seasons have followed the same path. Port Adelaide blame their poor results this season on not being able to sustain the running defensive pressure of last season. Clarkson is a brilliant coach but as Leigh Matthews says a coach is only as good as his players. Now, we have Clarkson clones all over the AFL, let's try reinvent the wheel and look back at how footy used to be played. I am not a traditionalist. Just wondering why transitions, zones, catches, defence and offence etc. infiltrated our football vernacular. The football department's job is to WIN. Let's win! lol

The wheel will eventually turn. It will only take until the next coach comes up with a game plan/structure/tactic that dominates the current one and the Clarkson clones will be stumped as their tactics become outdated. Think back to 2010/11 when all of Malthouses lieutenants got cherry picked and ask yourself where are they now?

Footy is constantly evolving, clubs are leaving no stone unturned as they look for even the slightest edge. "sport scientist" are employed, a GPS tracks the players movements; player X seems to run forward more/harder than back, so that suggests that his defensive/two way running is something he needs to work on. These days your defensive set up is just as vital as your midfield, a lot of sides set up their offensive charge from the defensive 50.

Ok now I'm just rambling on a bit so I'll just leave it at that.