Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

The Who's Who List

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Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

Use this thread below to lodge media, maps and photos for quick reference.

Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[PaulSubetro]

Really solid post

Couple of things stood out on Muir

Age was ''old'' as opposed to the others
Time from disappearance to body dump was 1 day
There was a concerted effort to remove any distinguishing marks
Death was 6 weeks after Barnes


While there are similarities and connections to BVE - I wonder if the motivation was different

Was this a silence murder rather than a thrill kill? That it was close to Barnes makes me think he may have seen something or said something that put a target on him

The mutilations are of anger. The stabbing of the penis and removal of a testicle is anger.

The cutting of the body parts is about transport so I dont read too much into that. The removal of the tattoos and the mutilations are a marked difference

The first two, they've gone for gay guys they knew. (Pretty sure BVE and Barnes knew each other)

 

[GreyCrow]

The first two, they've gone for gay guys they knew. (Pretty sure BVE and Barnes knew each other)

How does that validate the story Simon Peters said about ''corpse on the seat'' .

I can understand the need to kill Barnes and Muir - if they were getting anxious and heading to the police or becoming known - but then why continue with Stogneff, Langley and Kelvin?

Barnes and Muir were the 1st and they were thrill kills or they were not the 1st and they were silenced - then they continued on killing ie Barnes and Muir were a hiatus

 

[Kurve]

Barnes and Muir were the 1st and they were thrill kills or they were not the 1st and they were silenced - then they continued on killing ie Barnes and Muir were a hiatus

Five victims, five bodies found. It stands to reason imo particularly given the effort made in disposal of most that there's more, possibly quite a few more that just haven't been found and maybe some from the fringes nobody's been looking for. Sorry this sounds a bit harsh but they must have had some successes getting rid/disappearing bodies, surely.

 

[Burton89onegoal]

This is a bit random - and pure speculation - but I look at the situation with John Gacy being arrested in USA in December 1978, and then Family murders apparently commencing in 1979.

I cant help but wonder if BVE heard details from Gacy's arrest/trial, and this became his inspiration to add murder to his resume after previously "only" drugging and raping his victims.

 

[PaulSubetro]

This is what I think (and don't think) happened;

• BVE mixed with a few different groups.
• Woodards and Brown were lovers and were drug raping dudes
• Mr R lived with Woodards
• BVE's closest friend was Mr R
• BVE and Mr R found it hard to get young guys into the car. Two 30+ year old gay dudes talking up a party was a hard sell.
• BVE met 20 year old male prostitute Mr B in 1979. He found a partner in crime who was happy to pick up teenagers with BVE. "Do you want to come to a party, there'll be booze, drugs and girls" is a much better sell coming from a 20 year old.
• BVE was getting mandrax from Woodards directly or through Mr R who go them from Woodards. Possibly, in exchange for the pills, BVE would promise to call Mr R every time he picked someone up.
• The pills made him quite popular because they were hard to get.

• BVE formed a relationship with the transgenders. This was mostly involved around doing things for BVE so they could get Mandrax from him. Going with him as bait to lure young men into the car and letting him use the spare room.
• Mr B was introduced to the tansgenders, as was Mr R
• Mr R would often get a phone call from BVE once the abduction was done and then meet them at the transgender house
• Not only did BVE prefer to go cruising with Mr B (because he was young and provided street credibility), or the transgenders (because they could pose as women), but Mr R was male, older, and I'm tipping didn't look like a dude who'd be going to any cool party with booze, drugs and chicks.

• So when BVE's mum was home, he'd pick up hitch hikers with Mr B or one of the transgenders, take them back to the transgender house, and rape them. Mr B would have a go. Then Mr R would arrive and have a go. And then the transgenders would have a go.

• Across town, Woodards and Brown were also drugging and raping young dudes.

• In another part of town, another serial predator, Gino Gambardella was preying on young men. He cruised the city, especially Rundle Mall where street kids were known to hang out, looking for vulnerable kids to take to his friend Derrance Stevenson. Derrance Stevenson, a 44 year old high profile lawyer also liked teenage boys. He entertained them regularly at his Friday night parties which featured teenage boys, drugs and sex.
  
  
  
• There was also a thriving gay beat scene with 6 different well-known gay beats in the parklands that surround the city centre. Also part of this was a thriving teenage prostitution scene where young boys and young men sold themselves for sex.

• A lot of gay dudes were liking on teenage boys.

• Alan Barnes left school early and got a job. He was gay so he immediately connected to the gay scene in the city. He hung out with Darko Kastelan who was a similar age and they frequented the gay night spots together. He was good looking (as were all the Family murder victims) so would have got attention from the likes of Gambardella, Stevenson and BVE. It seems to get what they wanted from these desirable teenagers, drugs, money, shelter etc was offered. This scene was and is present in most major cities.

• BVE was a sexual sadist. He was witnessed inserting things like metal knitting needles up his drugged victim's anus's. At some stage he decided to go the next level and hold boys for days. He must have organised a place to keep Barnes in advance. It can't have been the unit he had in the inner east with Denis St Denis, because Trevor Peters wrote that Bevan showed St Denis the photos of Barnes after the fact.
• BVE and Mr B were cruising for victims (this seemed to happen a bit on Sundays) and they came across Alan Barnes. BVE is known to Barnes. Mr B may or may not have been known to Barnes. BVE somehow convinced Barnes to take Noctec and called Mr R to come and meet them. The three of them took Barnes to a secluded location and then rape, torture and kill him. BVE is known to Barnes so they have to kill him.
• Some time after BVE showed St Denis the photos, St Denis says he wants in and BVE and St Denis rent a unit. Somehow Woodards and Brown say they want in. The transgenders lose part of their currency because now BVE has a place of his own. He still potentially used them with Stogneff, Langley and Kelvin to get them into the car. It's hard to tell if they went to the unit.
• Muir was pretty much killed the same night but he had some work done. He would have been known to all these guys so it wouldn't have been hard to get him into the car. All though the other victims were tortured, Muir's injuries were next level which may suggest there was a personal element. BVE had some sort of relationship with him years before. Muir was a drug addict so potentially could have ripped one of these guys off. But who did the slicing and dicing? Is there where maybe Woodards came in?
• The next victim was Stogneff. His body was undetected for 10 months so toxicology couldn't be tested and they had no way of knowing how long he was held for. But he was cut up.
• Langley was killed and dumped within 48 hours so he was probably held for two nights. The surgery performed on him was likely by someone who had anatomical knowledge (Woodards potentially).
• Kelvin was held for 5 weeks. How did they do this? They had an apartment but someone probably had to be there all the time. Maybe they were knocking him out every night and also tying him up? Maybe they took shifts in staying there?
• It looks to me that BVE was the lead. This was not based on him being a natural leader, but one part his ability to to supply young unconscious boys/men, the other his ability to get Mandrax. He was at the centre of this. His sexual bent escalated over time and culminated in 5 murders.
• The main members of the Family in order of involvement were probably BVE, Mr R, Mr B, Woodards, St Denis and Brown. It's unsure how involved the transgender crew were but Turter and Firman get way more mentions than the others. Turtur confirmed all of them (himself, Firman, Brooks, Gant and another post-op) were involved in the abduction and/or rape of young men, but it looks like Turtur and Firman were closer to BVE than the others. Potentially they new of or even visited the unit. This puts them on the next level to the other transgenders.

Why I speculate that Millhouse was not involved

1. I've seen no evidence he was in BVE's circle. There's no way Muir's death is not connected to the others so for him to be involved, he had to be part of the Family
2. There was evidence of blood being cleaned in his house. There would have had to be a lot of it. The reports don't really quantify how much but if there was blood splatter on wall etc, you can be sure that would have been reported in the media. "There was evidence of blood that had been cleaned" is flimsy IMO
3. Apparently he had garbage bags and rope "similar" to what Neil was tied up in. The whole of Adelaide (800k people) were probably using one of two or three types of garbage bag on the market. With the rope, "similar" doesn't cut it. They had the means back then to test if it was the same rope.
4. Millhouse returned to Gawler after he was acquitted. The murders continued. Sure, he could have said, "hey Bevan, that was fun chopping up Muir, but I'm out. You guys keep carrying on". That's possible, but unlikely.
5. Mr B testified that he was with BVE when he picked up Barnes and then they hooked up with Mr R. Turtur says that BVE brought unconscious guys to their house and then Mr R used to arrive. Other sources say Mr B was often with BVE when arriving at the transgender house. Consistently all the way through it has been BVE, Mr R and Mr B. We know who BVE associated with and Millhouse wasn't in their group.
6. In the investigation into Millhouse, and subsequent investigation into BVE, it was never found that they were close acquaintances.

Why I speculate Derrance Stevenson was not involved with the Family

1. Derrance had his own group and like BVE, he was the centre of his group
2. Derrance had his own place which was the central meeting point of his group. His best mate Gambardella brought young guys to him. Young guys came to his place to attend parties on Friday nights. BVE was getting drive-through take-away while Derrance owned a restaurant.
3. Derrance didn't need to ride in someone else's car and then drug-rape young guys to get what he wanted. They both like young boys/men but had different means to access them.
4. Like Millhouse, there was no evidence they were close. It's well documented who BVE was drug-raping guys with prior to the murders and Derrance wasn't one of them. In the investigation into Derrance's death, if it had been found BVE was in Derrance's group then it would have come out.

Why I speculate Derrance Stevenson's murder is not linked

1. The only link we can see is Alan Barnes and probably Gambardella. Barnes was known to both groups but why wouldn't he? He was a young good looking gay guy frequenting the gay scene. Apparently he was using drugs every weekend so it makes sense he was associating with older men who could supply him drugs. I think he was a lot more in Derrance's circle that BVE's circle. BVE has a circle, Derrance has a circle, and Barnes' circle has a union with both those circle's based on his needs and those two circle's wants.

2. It is very coincidental that Barnes is killed within weeks of Stevenson. Barnes is known to both. Barnes potentially witnessed the aftermath of Stevenson's slaying. It's uncertain whether Szach was the killer. So let's reverse engineer it; we can be almost certain that Barnes was killed by the Family based on toxicity, similar injuries and unrelated testimonies from both Mr B and Trevor Peters.

So how would this work? The Family were not hitmen for hire. Their murders were sexually based backed up by a long history of the suspects being involved in drugging, raping and inserting objects into young men. There's no evidence that BVE or any of the Family being involved in Derrance's affairs or inner circle.

Let's say someone or some people other than Zsach murdered Derrance and Barnes was a witness. He goes to Legal Aid and these people relaise he's a risk of talking. So Gambardella who is somehow involved goes to an old mate in BVE and says, "Hey Bevan, I have a problem. Derrance was killed because of xxxxxxxxx, now it looks like some kid is going to talk. I know over the years you like to pick up young boys and drug them. What are the chances you can pick up this boy and "accidentally" give him too much? It would be worth your while plus you get to play with him as well. I know he hitchhikes home every Sunday to Salisbury so you'll probably come across him on Grand Junction Rd". That's pretty far flung IMO.

Let's have a look at David Zsach

• He had gunpowder on this hands. How can this be explained? Either he's the killer or SAPOL were fitting him up.
• He passed the lie detector test. Very hard to beat but it can be done. I noticed in Debi Marshall's doco that he twitched his feet a lot. One alleged tactic to beat the test is have a drawing pin in your shoe and very time you are asked a question you give yourself a prick. This raises the heart beat to the same level all the time making the lies consistent with the truth. The forensics lady also points out he says no but he nods his head as a yes. This could be another tactic. The forensics lady is sceptical about the test.
• Zsach's body language suggested he was lying and being evasive all the way through the interviews
• Gambardella appears to know more than he lets on. What was his involvement and why would have he been on Zsach's side?
• Zsach seemed to lead Marshall down the "it was the Family path". I've got an issue with how he did it. It appeared manipulative. He tried to get Marshall to come to her own conclusion it was the Family rather than just come out and say, "I think this is what happened". He used a tactic that he felt benefited his cause more.

I lean towards Zsach being the Derrance's killer but couldn't be sure. What I am reasonably sure of is that it's not linked to the Family.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I also listened to Debi Marshall's podcast. It's essentially the same info as the foxtel series but with more detail. Not sure why foxtel edit some of this stuff out.

A few things to be considered;

1. The podcast and foxtel series created some activity. Witnesses came forward. If only they hadn't suppressed those names perhaps witnesses back in the day would have come forward and created a snowball of evidence resulting in convictions.

2. On top of the nine people who came forward and testified in 1990, more people came out. One guy says he was at a pub, BVE spiked his drink and then came to his aid as if to help him and drive him home. Instead BVE took him to a house (which didn't sound like BVE's house) and tried to drug him again. The guy escaped. Chilling stuff.

3. Turtur claimed that after BVE left, that he, Brooks and Gant would have sex with the unconscious boys Bevan left. So potentially a young hetero guy gets tricked and drugged, and BVE, Mr B, Mr R, Turtur, Brooks and Gant all have sex with him while he's napping. Aside from being killed afterwards, that's as bad as it gets.

4. Turtur has admitted raping dudes. He must be given some sort of respect because all people want is the truth. I'd be surprised if police weren't revisiting him and saying, "now's the time". "We're going to charge you but we're also going to offer you a deal. If you don't tell us everything you'll be at the mercy of a jury, and I don't think they will be kind. But if you give us specifics we'll let you take a 2 year sentence".

He's ready to talk. He wouldn't know everything but I suspect he knows more than he's saying. SAPOL need to go after Mr R and Mr B. Mr B has already testified against Mr R. If Turtur also testifies, at least they can get him for rape and get his name released.

The SA Govt needs to throw everything at this.

5. Why did Mr B hardly get a mention by Marshall? No doubt she would have located him. Is she talking to him? Why no mention around why his name wasn't released from suppression?

 

[Burton89onegoal]

I believe David Szach has Motor Neuron Disease, so this would explain some of his unusual/strange/unexplained behaviour - eg. twitching his feet.

 

[imho]

What other suppression orders have been in place 30 years later...

Is Woodards the doctor supplied von Einem with all his pills? Turtur said he had big jars of them, 500 to a jar iirc so that would be a commercial amount.
Or is there a chemist in this group we haven't heard about yet?

in answer to that, and in the general vein of this topic, and to those who seem to think they know of all the players, I will give you this.
Surreal as it may sound, SAPOL prosecuted a man whom i discovered had - for more than 30 years - been routinely drugging and sexually abusing me in my home, and only god knows what else had been on his agenda while I was out to it during those years.
I'd no memory of any occurrence, with the exception of a very confused, random couple of seconds here and there, which upon questioning him for an explanation, he would tell me that I was imagining things. But there were occasions I was certain it was not my imagination, and pressing him for answers, he would become angry with me, insisting that "I" had issues and wasn't right in the head.
As I had no recall and could not remember, I could not prove anything, and as a consequence I came to believe that "I" perhaps did have issues and possibly was not right in the head.
It was far too many years down the track when something that happened caused me to take the drastic measure of concealing a camera directed at myself as I slept, capturing what was to be the last few nights finale of his seasoned 'routine'. He had regularly insisted on making me a tea, and after I had fallen asleep, he could be seen to frequently dip his fingers into a glass of (?) before touching his fingers to my mouth and lips. I won't go into further detail of what he did next, but from my extensive research since that time, I now suspect he administered GHB, which I have never knowingly consumed. During the recorded assaults I was generally totally unconscious for 2-3 hours before waking suddenly. Feeling refreshed, I then got up and finished a chore or two before drinking the remainder of that cold cup of tea, after which there was an entire repeat performance.
It is unlikely I will ever recover from what I was finally able to witness with my own eyes, nor from the knowledge that prick had successfully hoodwinked me for so many years.

The police investigation let me down totally , as the drugging could not be proved through standard toxicology and they did not investigate further.
The magistrate exercised his 'option' to not view the graphic footage, instead relying on the agreed bargained charges.
The court case resulted in a conviction for nothing more than aggravated indecent assault, and he did not serve one day.
I am not permitted to distribute nor divulge the magistrate's sentencing remarks.
There is a full suppression order on this matter.
The suppression order, intended to protect the victim, has literally all but destroyed me, SO please do not quote my post on thread, and do not question me further - I have suffered more than enough already.
I will leave you to privately speculate my perpetrator's chosen defense at mate's rates, and who 'may' well have been mentioned elsewhere within this thread, and who was recommended by daddy (should he ever be needing a lawyer).

The majority of his family now denounce me,
Some close people whom I expected would support me have not.
I have lost my own family over this, and since further forced into a position of financial hardship.
I am told this is typical circumstance on becoming a whistle blowing victim of crime.

I would like to add that throughout the many years I was acquainted with my perpetrator who was seemingly unhappy with his lot in life, he banged on more than once, and with great annoyance, that he could have taken over his own father's business, and it was in 1983, during a family gathering, that I personally brought up the breaking news topic of Von Eimen's arrest, when his father - who was a pharmacist - volunteered that Von Eimen had been a regular customer at his business.
The very same pharmacist, in 1982, was very wrong to consider I'd be amused when he confided to me of himself having laced a woman's drink with chloral hydrate (noctec) at his home. Coupling this incident to further tales (of delayed recall) told me by one of his sons, two of the sons were told to do whatever they wanted, after which the woman was subsequently discarded roadside near Murray Bridge in the vicinity of where she lived. The woman was a known 'junkie', so it didn't matter, she got what was coming to her ... right?

The latter are memories I have recalled since the end my own drugging in 2013 - a drugging I now believe commenced with both his blessing and assistance in 1982, as a measure taken to erase the memory of him having told me too much.
imho

 

[Kurve]

Respect your request not to quote your post imho but could it be said it's unfortunate investigators on the family murders case didn't try harder to find this chemist and do an audit on his records?

 

[imho]

Respect your request not to quote your post imho but could it be said it's unfortunate investigators didn't try harder to find this chemist and do an audit on his records?

And not because I failed to speak up ... in depth to the detective on my case, my outburst outside court, a report to crimestoppers, and an independent call to special crime.


imho

 

[PaulSubetro]

in answer to that, and in the general vein of this topic, and to those who seem to think they know of all the players, I will give you this.
Surreal as it may sound, SAPOL prosecuted a man whom i discovered had - for more than 30 years - been routinely drugging and sexually abusing me in my home, and only god knows what else had been on his agenda while I was out to it during those years.
I'd no memory of any occurrence, with the exception of a very confused, random couple of seconds here and there, which upon questioning him for an explanation, he would tell me that I was imagining things. But there were occasions I was certain it was not my imagination, and pressing him for answers, he would become angry with me, insisting that "I" had issues and wasn't right in the head.
As I had no recall and could not remember, I could not prove anything, and as a consequence I came to believe that "I" perhaps did have issues and possibly was not right in the head.
It was far too many years down the track when something that happened caused me to take the drastic measure of concealing a camera directed at myself as I slept, capturing what was to be the last few nights finale of his seasoned 'routine'. He had regularly insisted on making me a tea, and after I had fallen asleep, he could be seen to frequently dip his fingers into a glass of (?) before touching his fingers to my mouth and lips. I won't go into further detail of what he did next, but from my extensive research since that time, I now suspect he administered GHB, which I have never knowingly consumed. During the recorded assaults I was generally totally unconscious for 2-3 hours before waking suddenly. Feeling refreshed, I then got up and finished a chore or two before drinking the remainder of that cold cup of tea, after which there was an entire repeat performance.
It is unlikely I will ever recover from what I was finally able to witness with my own eyes, nor from the knowledge that prick had successfully hoodwinked me for so many years.

The police investigation let me down totally , as the drugging could not be proved through standard toxicology and they did not investigate further.
The magistrate exercised his 'option' to not view the graphic footage, instead relying on the agreed bargained charges.
The court case resulted in a conviction for nothing more than aggravated indecent assault, and he did not serve one day.
I am not permitted to distribute nor divulge the magistrate's sentencing remarks.
There is a full suppression order on this matter.
The suppression order, intended to protect the victim, has literally all but destroyed me, SO please do not quote my post on thread, and do not question me further - I have suffered more than enough already.
I will leave you to privately speculate my perpetrator's chosen defense at mate's rates, and who 'may' well have been mentioned elsewhere within this thread, and who was recommended by daddy (should he ever be needing a lawyer).

The majority of his family now denounce me,
Some close people whom I expected would support me have not.
I have lost my own family over this, and since further forced into a position of financial hardship.
I am told this is typical circumstance on becoming a whistle blowing victim of crime.

I would like to add that throughout the many years I was acquainted with my perpetrator who was seemingly unhappy with his lot in life, he banged on more than once, and with great annoyance, that he could have taken over his own father's business, and it was in 1983, during a family gathering, that I personally brought up the breaking news topic of Von Eimen's arrest, when his father - who was a pharmacist - volunteered that Von Eimen had been a regular customer at his business.
The very same pharmacist, in 1982, was very wrong to consider I'd be amused when he confided to me of himself having laced a woman's drink with chloral hydrate (noctec) at his home. Coupling this incident to further tales (of delayed recall) told me by one of his sons, two of the sons were told to do whatever they wanted, after which the woman was subsequently discarded roadside near Murray Bridge in the vicinity of where she lived. The woman was a known 'junkie', so it didn't matter, she got what was coming to her ... right?

The latter are memories I have recalled since the end my own drugging in 2013 - a drugging I now believe commenced with both his blessing and assistance in 1982, as a measure taken to erase the memory of him having told me too much.
imho

I think there's a reason why people haven't taken you as serious as they should. Let me explain from an outsiders POV;



1. A guy has been raping you for 30 years up until 2013 and you're claiming your guy is in the Family? This is unlikely.

2. How did this guy get into your home on a regular basis?

3. You say he gave you tea, couldn't you taste the drugs?

4. You said you'd wake up hours later feeling refreshing. There's nothing refreshing about sedatives. Or being anally r*ped.

5. You said he'd then drug you again. This guy doesn't seem to sleep. Is he on ice or is he a vampire?

6. You said you filmed him multiple times raping you. Why didn't you check the video after the first night, confirm your suspicions, and take action. You went back for more.

7. How does someone do this for 30 years? You must have had a close relationship.

8. The Family liked young boys. 15-19. Your ordeal must have gone into your 40s. That doesn't seem likely.

9. You said the court doesn't want to look at your footage. Did you show the police because I can't imagine they wouldn't look at it.


Your story appears to have holes in it. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just saying I can see why people have doubted you. I think you should go see a psychiatrist and show them the video. They will know what to do.

 

[relapse]

I believe David Szach has Motor Neuron Disease, so this would explain some of his unusual/strange/unexplained behaviour - eg. twitching his feet.

Yeah that was explained at the start of the series that he has MND and that is why there's an urgency from him to clear his name.

 

[GreyCrow]

Yeah that was explained at the start of the series that he has MND and that is why there's an urgency from him to clear his name.

But MND has a life expectancy between 3-10 years

The LD was conducted in 2007. I'm not sure MND can be used as a reason for twitching feet in 2007 , though I do note on the Today Tonight program in 2007 they said then he was ''seriously ill''

He is doing ok 12 years later

Motor neurone disease is a severely life-shortening condition for most people. Life expectancy for about half of those with the condition is three years from the start of symptoms. However, some people may live for up to 10 years, and in rarer circumstances even longer.
Symptoms: Muscle weakness
Includes Diseases: Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis


shrug

 

[PaulSubetro]

On David Szach - I found some sort of report or book on the case and now can't find it. This document alleges that in court it was alleged that Szach was going to great lengths while in Coober Pedy to stipulate to police, "we were in love, "he loved me", "I loved him" etc. Marshall mentioned it but this document really pointed it out. While circumstantial, it pushes me further to think Szach was guilty.

The gun shot residue is really hard to explain IMO. Harder to explain than the successful lie detector test.

Also consider Gambardella and anyone else who may have been there. Why did they keep quiet? Potentially Barnes was there so we know we he never said anything. But what about Gambardella? Apparently didn't see eye to eye with Szach. I also note Szach doesn't point the finger at Gambardella. That says a lot IMO.

** Just skim read parts of that document. Gambardella didn't testify at Szach's trial but when questioned by police he did tell them that Szach had told him that he would shoot Derrance if he left him. He also said they had a conversation about freezing a body to hide evidence. Gino didn't do Szach any favours.

 

[PaulSubetro]

DNA tests for Family murder suspects

KEY suspects in Adelaide's notorious Family murders are being DNA tested as part of a new inquiry into the sex killings.

www.perthnow.com.au

In 1989, a key witness - one of von Einem's former close associates - provided detectives with a statement alleging the businessman met von Einem after Alan Barnes had been picked up and drugged.

The witness said after von Einem and he had picked Barnes up, von Einem stopped and rang the businessman from a telephone box on Main North Rd. They then drove to the "Number One" gay beat at Jolly's Boathouse, opposite the Torrens Parade Ground.

Once there - with an unconscious Barnes in the vehicle - they met the businessman and von Einem chatted with him for a short time.

The witness claims von Einem had then asked him if he wanted "to watch him do some surgery on this guy". The witness, who died in Sydney several years ago, said he did not go with the pair because he did not like the businessman.

--------

This reporter is saying Mr B died but I suspect this is incorrect information. If he was dead then Marshall would have reported it and his name would have been released. Unless they don't want Mr R to know he's dead. That's unlikely though.

 

[PaulSubetro]

On David Szach - I found some sort of report or book on the case and now can't find it. This document alleges that in court it was alleged that Szach was going to great lengths while in Coober Pedy to stipulate to police, "we were in love, "he loved me", "I loved him" etc. Marshall mentioned it but this document really pointed it out. While circumstantial, it pushes me further to think Szach was guilty.

Found it:

http://netk.net.au/Szach/Szach3.pdf

At about the same time as Dr Manock had arrived at Stevenson’s place, David Szach called at the police station in Coober Pedy to clear up certain charges relating to uncashed cheques. He had already called at the police station during the afternoon but Detective 9 Standing had been out at the time. Back in the office, Detective Standing said: ‘My name is Standing. I am the detective at Coober Pedy. I believe you want to speak to me about something. Is that right?’ ‘I have come to speak to you about cheques and my missing friend Derrance,’ Szach replied. After a few minutes of discussion to clear up the matter concerning the cheque offences, Szach asked, ‘Have you found my friend Derrance?’ ‘I don’t know what you are talking about. Derrance who?’ ‘Derrance Stevenson. We’re in love. What’s your attitude towards homosexuals?’ said Szach. ‘I haven’t got an attitude towards homosexuals. Why do you want to know?’ ‘I have a homosexual relationship with Derrance and he’s missing, and he’s the only person in the world I have and I want you to find him,’ Szach said. ‘Where does Derrance live?’ ‘189 Greenhill Road, Parkside. He’s Derrance Stevenson, the solicitor.’ ‘How long have you known him?’ ‘I met him three years ago. We fell for each other pretty quickly. He’s the only person in the world who gives me love and who cares about me.’ 10 ‘How do you know he’s missing?’ Szach replied, ‘I rang his office at nine o’clock this morning when I arrived in Coober Pedy and his secretary said he was out, and I rang again between half past three and four o’clock and his secretary — not his usual one, you know; this one is only a relief one — told me that he was missing. I told her to contact Gino and the police.’ ‘Why did you want her to contact the police?’ ‘Derrance and I are in love. He means the whole world to me and I want to find him. You can find him for me, can’t you?’

---------

It's not necessarily true as people remember stuff differently and twist the context of conversations, but if that is how it happened then it's text book actions of a guilty person.

 

[acermark]

Long time lurker first time poster here!

• Kelvin was held for 5 weeks. How did they do this? They had an apartment but someone probably had to be there all the time. Maybe they were knocking him out every night and also tying him up? Maybe they took shifts in staying there

BVE and Denis St Denis both had jobs and lived with their mothers and Mr R had his shop, perhaps Mr B was staying at the apartment regularly to keep watch on things? No doubt though they all would have been there on the weekends. Though for the first week of Richard's captivity BVE was apparently home sick with the flu.

I'd say too that Richard would have been gagged and tied up to a bed in the bedroom to keep him from making any noise to arouse suspicion. There was also evidence that he had eaten an apple and cornflakes not long before his death so there were times when wasn't completely out to it. And he had suffered various injuries and bruising during the 5 weeks he was held, perhaps from him fighting to escape or not to take the drugs? The autopsy had revealed the possibilty of him being injected with drugs into his arm so maybe they resorted to that to keep him knocked out.

The apartment itself possibly too could've have been similar to BVE's ground level Campbelltown apartment where he could drive straight up to the front door and carry drugged boys straight in with minimal detection. There is an apartment block in William Street, Norwood that has several small one bedroom apartments with some at ground level having their front doors right on the driveway.

I was stunned to hear on the final episode of Debi Marshall's podcast that Neil Muir's brother revealed that Neil had been given an expensive ring by a "wealthy businessman who had an antique shop". I'm also looking forward to her upcoming book on The Family murders.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

But MND has a life expectancy between 3-10 years

The LD was conducted in 2007. I'm not sure MND can be used as a reason for twitching feet in 2007 , though I do note on the Today Tonight program in 2007 they said then he was ''seriously ill''

He is doing ok 12 years later

Motor neurone disease is a severely life-shortening condition for most people. Life expectancy for about half of those with the condition is three years from the start of symptoms. However, some people may live for up to 10 years, and in rarer circumstances even longer.
Symptoms: Muscle weakness
Includes Diseases: Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis


shrug

My Wife's cousins Husband was diagnosed in the 80's and lasted about 30yrs until he succumbed to the disease, so it can happen.

On another note, the one thing that stood out to me in the recent DM series was when they discussed the timing of DS being witnessed at the remote roadhouse where 3 different people gave conflicting times.
One of those witnesses was a bus driver who was collecting mail on his route, surely of all the conflicting stories of his whereabouts on that trip, this sighting should be able to be confirmed through records.
It was mentioned and then just seemed to be forgotten about in the final episode where they concluded that he'd done it.
I found that interesting as if the bus driver was correct, he couldn't have been in Pt Wakefield when the witnesses said he was, he would have been there earlier as he said, and if he'd been there when he said he was, he couldn't have made Greenhill rd to Pt Wakefield on the old single lane rd which ran through Lower Light, Dublin, Windsor etc. in the time suggested.

I got the impression that someone wanted access to Szach and DS wanted to protect him, hence the job out of town and that the phone call he received gave it more urgency, hence the cancelled bus trip and car.
Whatever happened that night, the stakes we're raised within the ring/s.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Long time lurker first time poster here!

BVE and Denis St Denis both had jobs and lived with their mothers and Mr R had his shop, perhaps Mr B was staying at the apartment regularly to keep watch on things? No doubt though they all would have been there on the weekends. Though for the first week of Richard's captivity BVE was apparently home sick with the flu.

I'd say too that Richard would have been gagged and tied up to a bed in the bedroom to keep him from making any noise to arouse suspicion. There was also evidence that he had eaten an apple and cornflakes not long before his death so there were times when wasn't completely out to it. And he had suffered various injuries and bruising during the 5 weeks he was held, perhaps from him fighting to escape or not to take the drugs? The autopsy had revealed the possibilty of him being injected with drugs into his arm so maybe they resorted to that to keep him knocked out.

The apartment itself possibly too could've have been similar to BVE's ground level Campbelltown apartment where he could drive straight up to the front door and carry drugged boys straight in with minimal detection. There is an apartment block in William Street, Norwood that has several small one bedroom apartments with some at ground level having their front doors right on the driveway.

I was stunned to hear on the final episode of Debi Marshall's podcast that Neil Muir's brother revealed that Neil had been given an expensive ring by a "wealthy businessman who had an antique shop". I'm also looking forward to her upcoming book on The Family murders.

Wow! Just listened to the final podcast.

The interesting part for me is SAPOL visited Jock Muir (Neil's brother) 5 years ago and asked if he had an issue if someone who "was just present but didn't participate" in the murders was given immunity. That has to be Mr B. 5 years ago coincides with the discovery of Trevor Peters' diaries. Mr B always claimed, "just before sh it was about to go down I left". SAPOL strongly suspected he was lying. They must have re-engaged and said, "we've got these diaries, will you still testify? But, we need you to not leave stuff out this time - we'll give you immunity".

Nothing became of it but now Turtur has said, "I saw Mr R bring a drugged boy to my house" then maybe that's enough to lay charges. This late in the game, I think the public are willing to sacrifice a Turtur and Mr B getting a get out of jail free card.


In one of Marshall's podcasts a drug-rape victim says he was drugged by BVE and taken to a house. He described the house as have lead light windows and inside just some chairs. It wasn't really a house that was lived in. Hopefully SAPOL interview this guy and see if they can locate it. Could be where the boys were held.

I think Darko Kastelan can shed some light on some things;

1. Was Derrance Alan Barnes' lawyer for the rape case?
2. Were they getting heroin from Derrance?
3. Was Derrance making movies?
4. When did they meet BVE?
5. How well did you know David Szach?

 

[PaulSubetro]

How does that validate the story Simon Peters said about ''corpse on the seat'' .

My guess would be it wasn't a corpse but a drugged teenager. "Greek looking guy". Gambardella comes to mind.

 

[PaulSubetro]

I'm also looking forward to her upcoming book on The Family murders.

What I like about this most is that if she's writing a book then she's still working at getting suppression orders removed.

What I liked about the foxtel/podcast was she told both sides of the story and looked for the truth rather than try and push the viewer where she wanted. The evidence against Szach is quite compelling. A few hours ago I was maybe 60% that he was guilty with some serious nagging doubts. Now I'm at 90% and those nagging doubts have diminished a lot. Szach most likely murdered Derrance and then went to his Dad's and acted like a cool cucumber. Cold campaigner.

What I didn't like about the podcast and foxtel series - the supposition that Derrance was right in the middle of the Family. At this stage it's only a possibility. More investigation is needed here.

 

[Bits]

There was a photo of Denis St Denis on the Debi Marshall show. I’m guessing this is a screen grab of that.

As for whether Derrance Stevenson was in the main Family, I doubt it. But had to have known each other at the very least. There are too many links for them not to have crossed paths:

Alan Barnes is friends with Darko Kastelan who works for Gambardella who procures boys for Stevenson. And Barnes and Kastelan were seen several times with BVE in well-known gay hangouts, of which there weren’t too many.

Adelaide wasn’t a big place back then. Everyone knew someone who knew someone. For example I was in my teens when this was all going on. I vaguely knew some kids who went to school with Mark Langley. I remember them all speaking about how this guy they knew had run away. Then his body was found.

Our parents kept us on a tight rein for a few years.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Below is a blury picture of Mr R.
Just curious, but where did you find the picture of Denis St Denis?
Also does anyone know any more of the contents of Trevor Peters diary? More than what was reported in the media?

As Bits said - someone took a screen grab of Debi Marshall Foxtel series and sent it to me.

A lot of these people don't have online foot prints. Mr R is very cautious and Mr B can't be found online (yet).

How did you know Mr R's address? If you have access to rent rolls, any chance you can check;

Turtur
Firman
Brooks
Gant
Sarah Novak
Trevor Peters

Interested in knowing what number Shipsters Rd Peters lived at and which of the transgenders moved from Alberton to Shipsters Rd. And did the transgenders live with Sarah Novak?


The only stuff I can find on the diaries is what has been widely reported online. Debi Marshall was able to get a full transcript. That would have been good reading.

 

[Hendrix27]

As Bits said - someone took a screen grab of Debi Marshall Foxtel series and sent it to me.

A lot of these people don't have online foot prints. Mr R is very cautious and Mr B can't be found online (yet).

How did you know Mr R's address? If you have access to rent rolls, any chance you can check;

Turtur
Firman
Brooks
Gant
Sarah Novak
Trevor Peters

Interested in knowing what number Shipsters Rd Peters lived at and which of the transgenders moved from Alberton to Shipsters Rd. And did the transgenders live with Sarah Novak?


The only stuff I can find on the diaries is what has been widely reported online. Debi Marshall was able to get a full transcript. That would have been good reading.

Someone online told me his address, his house is quite distinctive, I don't know the exact street number, but I checked it out myself. I've searched for Mr R and Mr B. They have nothing online. The only thing online is Mr R's shop. I heard that Mr B had died, but I'm not sure if that's true. I've never looked at rent rolls etc.
Pity she didn't make public the entire contents of that diary.

 

[Hendrix27]

There was a photo of Denis St Denis on the Debi Marshall show. I’m guessing this is a screen grab of that.

As for whether Derrance Stevenson was in the main Family, I doubt it. But had to have known each other at the very least. There are too many links for them not to have crossed paths:

Alan Barnes is friends with Darko Kastelan who works for Gambardella who procures boys for Stevenson. And Barnes and Kastelan were seen several times with BVE in well-known gay hangouts, of which there weren’t too many.

Adelaide wasn’t a big place back then. Everyone knew someone who knew someone. For example I was in my teens when this was all going on. I vaguely knew some kids who went to school with Mark Langley. I remember them all speaking about how this guy they knew had run away. Then his body was found.

Our parents kept us on a tight rein for a few years.

Same here. I was in my early teens when all this was happening. Was once stalked by a car load of older men in 1982. I grew up only a few ks from where BVE lived at Paradise. My parents were very wary then too. I went to school with Mark Langley's sister after he was murdered. Her parents were very protective as you can imagine.