Unsolved The Family Murders

[Kurve]

The Who's Who List

• #2,647

Out of Sight - The Untold Story of Adelaide's Gay Hate Murders

The Cases of Forensic Pathologist Colin Manock

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Unsolved - The Family Murders - MEDIA

This thread may be used to post the Family Murders media related content. To include press and gathered photographs from various sources. Please feel free to post but as this is a no discussion thread, comments will be deleted or moved at discretion. WHO'S WHO VICTIMS AB - Alan Barnes 16yo...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[PaulSubetro]

I think Gambardella is the link to the family, not necessarily Derrance but if we knew who was at his parties we'd have a better idea.

If it was Barnes at legal aid the next morning and he was with Gambardella cleaning up Derrance's murder, Gambardella would want him silenced.

That's great, but it's one sentence/statement. Now reverse engineer it and get it to match with everything else that we know. The more you try and match it up, the longer the odds get. I'm not saying it's impossible - sometimes 66/1 long shots win the cup, just saying for that to happen it means a large number of improbabilities have to occur.

 

[Kurve]

That's great, but it's one sentence/statement. Now reverse engineer it and get it to match with everything else that we know. The more you try and match it up, the longer the odds get. I'm not saying it's impossible - sometimes 66/1 long shots win the cup, just saying for that to happen it means a large number of improbabilities have to occur.

Did you not agree it was probably Barnes at legal aid?

He'd have been easy to pick off, unfortunately.

 

[Kurve]

Forensics and autopsy told them Kelvin was held alive for approximately 5 weeks. Mr B never said anything about this.

Do you have a link for this? I'd appreciate the reading because 80s forensics doesn't instill confidence and the term 'frozen in time' springs to mind.

I'm not trying to match things up merely trying to understand it all, the simpler explanation is that he wasn't alive for five weeks. It makes for great headlines though and ghastly documentaries and here we are decades later still discussing it.

 

[Kurve]

There WAS another location. Common sense tells us that. They just couldn't find it.

There is no evidence of a freezer being used with the Family murders.

Then there's no evidence of another location as there's no evidence of a freezer being used with .... oh ... wait. On the periphery there was.

I don't want to die on this hill called Theory, that's all it is. Bouncing a theory around.

 

[Kurve]

Not only was BVE proven scientifically to be involved in Kelvin's murder

Are you trying to suggest I've put BVE forward as being uninvolved in Kelvin's murder? I haven't done that at all.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Did you not agree it was probably Barnes at legal aid?

He'd have been easy to pick off, unfortunately.

Yes, I think it's likely it was him.

You've mentioned Gambardella had reason to silence him. Why? He has recovered whatever was in the hidey hole and wasn't the killer anyway.

But let's say he wanted to protect himself from being an accessory. How do you think he convinced BVE to kill Barnes?

 

[PaulSubetro]

Do you have a link for this? I'd appreciate the reading because 80s forensics doesn't instill confidence and the term 'frozen in time' springs to mind.

I'm not trying to match things up merely trying to understand it all, the simpler explanation is that he wasn't alive for five weeks. It makes for great headlines though and ghastly documentaries and here we are decades later still discussing it.

The 5 weeks is common information. The onus is on you to look it up. 2 mins tops.

You say you're trying to understand this but not willing to explain to yourself anything further than statements.

Actually, the simpler explanation is believing the scientists.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Then there's no evidence of another location as there's no evidence of a freezer being used with .... oh ... wait. On the periphery there was.

I don't want to die on this hill called Theory, that's all it is. Bouncing a theory around.

Of course there is. It's unlikely he was in a vacuum, therefore he had to be somewhere.

BVEs house was searched extensively. No evidence of a murder bit a freezer. He was held somewhere else.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Are you trying to suggest I've put BVE forward as being uninvolved in Kelvin's murder? I haven't done that at all.

Nope. You're saying it's obvious Kelvin wasn't held for 5 weeks and he was in a freezer. Scientists believe he was held for 5 weeks.

You keep talking about blackmail, freezers, links between the Derrance murder and the Family, links between Errance murder and Barnes murder but you're unable to articulate and potential set if events as to how it all happened.

 

[Kurve]

You've mentioned Gambardella had reason to silence him. Why? He has recovered whatever was in the hidey hole and wasn't the killer anyway.

Alan Barnes made it known he was about to talk when he showed up at legal aid. He could have made a charge of accessory to murder actually stick on Gambardella.

How do you think he convinced BVE to kill Barnes?

Something like this:

GG. Your little friend Alan Barnes was in the house helping Szach clean up after Derrance was killed also helping himself to all Derrance's gear, money, pics and the tapes. A briefcase full. I just heard he showed up at legal aid the next morning wanting to talk to a lawyer about being there, he was told to come back. I can't find him but if he talks, we're all going to jail and I need those tapes. (Gambardella has the tapes)

BVE and Mr. R now highly motivated.

 

[Kurve]

Nope. You're saying it's obvious Kelvin wasn't held for 5 weeks and he was in a freezer. Scientists believe he was held for 5 weeks.

You keep talking about blackmail, freezers, links between the Derrance murder and the Family, links between Errance murder and Barnes murder but you're unable to articulate and potential set if events as to how it all happened.

Stop pretending I've said things I haven't.

You raised blackmail, I didn't. There's no evidence of blackmail but pr0n of young boys and pics suggests there's an opening for it.

Show me the science to prove he was held ALIVE for 5 weeks. Bruising doesn't cut it, food in his stomach won't either, the fact his hair didn't grow (it was cut .. really?) pushed me towards the theory he may have been in a freezer where time is suspended. Science STILL can't tell if a corpse has been frozen.

None of the other victims were held for that long. Why?

Edit: I have tried but I cant find any actual evidence that confirms Kelvin's hair was cut but for there was little growth. I'd be quite prepared to drop this idea if there was. Its just an idea that's gone further than intended anyway.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Alan Barnes made it known he was about to talk when he showed up at legal aid. He could have made a charge of accessory to murder actually stick on Gambardella.

Something like this:

GG. Your little friend Alan Barnes was in the house helping Szach clean up after Derrance was killed also helping himself to all Derrance's gear, money, pics and the tapes. A briefcase full. I just heard he showed up at legal aid the next morning wanting to talk to a lawyer about being there, he was told to come back. I can't find him but if he talks, we're all going to jail and I need those tapes. (Gambardella has the tapes)

BVE and Mr. R now highly motivated.

Ok, let's walk through some options;

Option 1

Szach and Gambardella are in cahoots. I read in the Tom Mann book that Szach complained that Derrance "was getting worse". So there may have been something about Derrance that was putting both Szach and Gamba offside. Gamba convinces Szach to kill Derrance.

Option 2

Similar to option 1 but there's no agreement or influence to kill Derrance. Just a lot of mutual whingeing and maybe some, "I've nearly had enough of this campaigner, I feel like shooting/stabbing/bashing him".

Option 3

They're not in cahoots but there is a compelling reason Gamba helps with the cleanup.


Back to Options 1 and 2

- Szach kills Derrance between 6pm and 6:40pm. I think Derrance was on phone to Gamba at 6pm then left for bus station at maybe 6:40
- Szach leaves his body as it lay on the bed. He goes to the bus station and then to his parents. He just murdered his lover but he's cool as a cucumber.
- On the way back he goes past Gamba's house in Prospect. He speaks to Gamba and tells him what happened. Gamba says he'll meet him there soon.
- Gamba arrives at 8:30 with Barnes and maybe Kastelan in tow. note: Barnes usually spent the weekends in the city with Kastelan and went home on Sunday nights to spend week at his parent's house. Derrance was murdered on a Monday. Did anyone check to see where Barnes was on that night?
- They clean up. Gamba grabs any home made pr0n from the hidey-hole. Any cash he keeps. Any heroin is given to Barnes and Kastelan.
- They hatch a plan for someone to wear Derrences clothes and glasses and grab a cab to the city to dump the pillow and freezer contents. Either Barnes goes and dumps the stuff then Gamba picks him up, or Szach goes and Kastelan or someone else drives Derrence's car to meet Szach in the city. There is no evidence anyone caught a cab back to Derrences.
- Szach drives to Coober Pedy
- Gamba makes a statement to police implicating Szach because he feels they might get caught so pushes Szach under the bus.

Back to Option 3

- Szach kills Derrance between 6pm and 6:40pm. I think Derrance was on phone to Gamba at 6pm then left for bus station at maybe 6:40
- Szach leaves his body as it lay on the bed. He goes to the bus station and then to his parents. He just murdered his lover but he's cool as a cucumber.
- Szach arrives back to 8pm-ish and starts clean up
- Gamba, not having heard from Derrance, drops by at 8:30 with Barnes and maybe Kastelan in tow
- He discovers Szach has murdered Derrance. Szach tells Gamba that if he says anything he'll blab about all the underage sex
- Gamba begrudgingly agrees, they clean up and then either Barnes or Szach catch the taxi.

All options

- Derrance is dead and Szach is under arrest.
- Gamba is worried Barnes will snitch and he will be done for either participating or for being an accessory
- Gamba has the videos/photos from the hidey-hole. Some of the people involved were BVE, Mr R, Woodards, Brown etc
- Gamba knows BVE is a sick campaigner and meets with him and tells him the kid Barnes is a risk of exposing the videos/photos.
- BVE asks where he can find Barnes and Gamba tells him Barnes usually hitches home to Salisbury on Sunday afternoons.
- BVE and Mr B trawl Main North Rd, Churchill Rd, South Rd and Grand Junction Rd for 2 Sundays until they spot him. Then they drug him and kill him.
- BVE then gets some sort of blood lust and goes on to kill 4 more people and bring friends into it.


This all reads okay until the Gamba getting BVE to kill Barnes bit. Just sounds very unlikely.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Stop pretending I've said things I haven't.

You raised blackmail, I didn't. There's no evidence of blackmail but pr0n of young boys and pics suggests there's an opening for it.

Nope. I mentioned that Ki (former rent boy) brought the theory up in the Foxtel series and I was prety clear I was debunking it. On the other hand, you should go check what you said in post #499.

Show me the science to prove he was held ALIVE for 5 weeks. Bruising doesn't cut it, food in his stomach won't either, the fact his hair didn't grow (it was cut .. really?) pushed me towards the theory he may have been in a freezer where time is suspended. Science STILL can't tell if a corpse has been frozen.

Richard Kelvin - Crime Stoppers South Australia

Rewards up to $1,000,000 will be paid by the Government of South Australia, at the discretion of the Commissioner of Police, to anyone who provides information and assistance that leads to the conviction of the person or persons responsible for the suspected murder of Richard Kelvin. REWARD up...

crimestopperssa.com.au

ps You could have just put this into Google, "how long was richard kelvin held for?"

Science STILL can't tell if a corpse has been frozen

Method for determining if a corpse has been frozen: measuring the activity of short-chain 3-hydroxyacyl-CoA dehydrogenase (SCHAD) - PubMed

Accidental deaths by exposure to the cold have figured in many publications, whereas the freezing of the corpse is not well known. The study which we have reported was motivated by an observation of homicide in which ignorance of the fact that the body had been frozen was responsible for an...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

None of the other victims were held for that long. Why?

1. Evolution. They got better at holding them captive.
2. Noise. Langley might have been too noisy. Stogneff was a skeleton so it can't be determined how long he was kept for.
3. Premises - maybe they got a better place between Langley and Kelvin


For what reason do you think they froze the body?

 

[Kurve]

Method for determining if a corpse has been frozen: measuring the activity of short-chain 3-hydroxyacyl-CoA dehydrogenase (SCHAD). - PubMed - NCBI

Already pulled that up yesterday and bookmarked it, it's still iffy.

And we are talking about the early 80s.

 

[Kurve]

This all reads okay until the Gamba getting BVE to kill Barnes bit. Just sounds very unlikely.

I think it was Barnes but the hope is that it wasn't because there'd be a chance whoever it was is still alive.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Show me the science to prove he was held ALIVE for 5 weeks.

removed, but I will paraphrase what it said;

(this is an excerpt from an autopsy report)

- abducted 5th June 1983
- body found 7 weeks later
- body was dumped on 11 July or the night before
- was killed withing 2 days of 11 July
- extensive injury to anus
- body was washed before being dumped
- bruise on back from 2-3 weeks before death
- another bruise caused 2-3 days before death
- a sever head injury
- food in stomach
- forensics showed BVE was in contact with Kelvin within days of dumping his body

 

[PaulSubetro]

I think it was Barnes but the hope is that it wasn't because there'd be a chance whoever it was is still alive.

That's why I would have liked Marshall to see if she could find a record of Barnes' court case and confirm if Derrance was representing Barnes or not. Potentially, they had a verbal agreement and nothing was yet on record.

Barnes fitted the description
Highly likely knew Derrance
Had a pending court case
Never cam forward

There's a good reason a lot of people speculate it was Barnes.

 

[Bits]

Barnes was only 16 ie a juvenile so maybe any court records are sealed due to his age.

 

[PaulSubetro]

Barnes was only 16 ie a juvenile so maybe any court records are sealed due to his age.

Probably. Marshall was able to get David Szach's but Szach signed for them.

 

[Kurve]

removed, but I will paraphrase what it said;

(this is an excerpt from an autopsy report)

- abducted 5th June 1983
- body found 7 weeks later
- body was dumped on 11 July or the night before
- was killed withing 2 days of 11 July
- extensive injury to anus
- body was washed before being dumped
- bruise on back from 2-3 weeks before death
- another bruise caused 2-3 days before death
- a sever head injury
- food in stomach
- forensics showed BVE was in contact with Kelvin within days of dumping his body

That's quite strange, my research tells that bruising is still quite interpretive at autopsy and gone within two weeks. Do you have a link please?

Also quite often can't tell the difference between pre and post mortem bruising.

 

[acermark]

The weekend of 9/10 July was a weekend BVE's mother was home. I believe Kelvin was killed late on the 9th at the apartment and his body placed in the boot of BVE's Ford Falcon after being washed. On the 10th BVE and his mother went in his Toyota Corona to a relative's birthday party in the late afternoon and arrived home around 10:30pm. When his mother was asleep, BVE quietly took Kelvin's body into his room, redressed him in his clothes (with dog collar on his neck) and then drove to the airstrip to dump the body either before he went to bed or in the morning before going to work. The geologist who discovered the body on the 24th was in the identical area on the afternoon of the 10th and the body wasn't there then.

BVE sold his Ford Falcon on the 16th July to "help" pay for his overseas trip to the UK and the USSR. Just before he sold it he apparently repainted inside the boot because of "rust" due to a leaky esky. Was it bloodstained???

 

[PaulSubetro]

That's quite strange, my research tells that bruising is still quite interpretive at autopsy and gone within two weeks. Do you have a link please?

Also quite often can't tell the difference between pre and post mortem bruising.

It's not strange at all. That's what it says. I can't provide a link because it's on my hard drive.

They couldn't tell whether the anal insertion happened pre or post mortem, but they could tell the bruises happened pre-mortem.

 

[PaulSubetro]

The weekend of 9/10 July was a weekend BVE's mother was home. I believe Kelvin was killed late on the 9th at the apartment and his body placed in the boot of BVE's Ford Falcon after being washed. On the 10th BVE and his mother went in his Toyota Corona to a relative's birthday party in the late afternoon and arrived home around 10:30pm. When his mother was asleep, BVE quietly took Kelvin's body into his room, redressed him in his clothes (with dog collar on his neck) and then drove to the airstrip to dump the body either before he went to bed or in the morning before going to work. The geologist who discovered the body on the 24th was in the identical area on the afternoon of the 10th and the body wasn't there then.

BVE sold his Ford Falcon on the 16th July to "help" pay for his overseas trip to the UK and the USSR. Just before he sold it he apparently repainted inside the boot because of "rust" due to a leaky esky. Was it bloodstained???

Wonder if he slipped her a randy mandy so she wouldn't wake up?

 

[Bits]

The weekend of 9/10 July was a weekend BVE's mother was home. I believe Kelvin was killed late on the 9th at the apartment and his body placed in the boot of BVE's Ford Falcon after being washed. On the 10th BVE and his mother went in his Toyota Corona to a relative's birthday party in the late afternoon and arrived home around 10:30pm. When his mother was asleep, BVE quietly took Kelvin's body into his room, redressed him in his clothes (with dog collar on his neck) and then drove to the airstrip to dump the body either before he went to bed or in the morning before going to work. The geologist who discovered the body on the 24th was in the identical area on the afternoon of the 10th and the body wasn't there then.

BVE sold his Ford Falcon on the 16th July to "help" pay for his overseas trip to the UK and the USSR. Just before he sold it he apparently repainted inside the boot because of "rust" due to a leaky esky. Was it bloodstained???

So in this theory, BVE lifted Richard’s body out of his car and took him through the house into the bedroom all by himself? BVE is a tall man, but appears to be “soft”. I would question his ability to physically do that by himself. Richard would have been very difficult to move by one person. Dragging would have been the easiest way, but that would have left a lot of trace evidence. Also, too many unnecessary steps in this scenario.

Why wouldn’t BVE have taken the clothes to wherever Richard was, not bring Richard to the clothes? Easier to re-dress him where he died surely. And moving Richard out of a car boot, into a house, just to put clothes on before taking him out to the car again seems to be an awful lot of effort. Not to mention risk.

Even if mum was knocked out with pills and someone came to help, it still all seems unnecessary. Easier to just dress him and take him straight from where he was killed straight out to the dump site.

 

[PaulSubetro]

So in this theory, BVE lifted Richard’s body out of his car and took him through the house into the bedroom all by himself? BVE is a tall man, but appears to be “soft”. I would question his ability to physically do that by himself. Richard would have been very difficult to move by one person. Dragging would have been the easiest way, but that would have left a lot of trace evidence. Also, too many unnecessary steps in this scenario.

Why wouldn’t BVE have taken the clothes to wherever Richard was, not bring Richard to the clothes? Easier to re-dress him where he died surely. And moving Richard out of a car boot, into a house, just to put clothes on before taking him out to the car again seems to be an awful lot of effort. Not to mention risk.

Even if mum was knocked out with pills and someone came to help, it still all seems unnecessary. Easier to just dress him and take him straight from where he was killed straight out to the dump site.

- I think he'd be strong enough to carry Kelvin
- I think at this stage he was living in the house (as opposed to the triplex at the back of the block which provided privacy)
- He probably didn't know much about forensics. Sure, they washed the boys before dumping but this might have been at the insistence of the Doctor.
- Either way, it's a big risk but maybe BVE wanted one last night with him?

It's not really a "theory". It either it happened like the evidence said it did, forensics got it wrong, or police are lying (coerced the forensics people to twist the truth).

At this stage I'm willing to take it at face value. If someone goes and checks and it's determined Dr Manock did the testing, it would cast doubt.