The importance of Witts and Grundy

[lozza63]

Hagla i just doubt that we'll have enough key pieces of the jigsaw puzzle to contend for the 8. We are clearly in a different phase of development than the Hawks were post 09.

I mean the Hawks were cursed in the rucks back then and actively sought Hale to give a double option and also sacrificed Roughy into a Leigh Brown role.

I just cant see that Grundy and Witts will make the required advance this year.

Using the Hawks as an example they were no longer contenders with the likes of Renouf Taylor and Campbell. They actively sought out a mature player to make them a viable threat - Witts and Grundy as a pair are 30 games a piece away from 129 games of experience as Hale was. Last 3 years Hale kicked over 20 goals per year.

But we've lost heaps of class pace grunt and impact on big games in the likes of Beams Ball and O'Brien.
I think when you add this impact to Jolly Shaw Didak and yes even Dawes and Wellingham.

The Hawks lost no one of note from '08 and then topped up (Burgoyne Hale BigBoy) and developed brilliantly (Gunston Breust Smith Shiels Suckling Poppy) whilst sorting out their deficencies in defense (Lake Gibson) from 2009-2012.

Who exactly have we recruited in terms of mature impactful players the last 2-4 years who compare to the Hawks or Swans even the Power (Ebert Monfries Polec and now Ryder)?

Lobbe took a few years to click he already had 40 odd games experience the early part under the guidance of Brogan.

I am cautiously hopeful than outright confident about our progress this year and much of this hope rests on Reid and Brown being able to play 20 games whilst hoping for good output from our fledgling ruck pairing.

 

[Old Spice]

Not yet, because we don't have great ruck depth, but I would consider trading one of them in the next few years for a top line mid or KPP (or a high draft pick). Depends also on how Cox comes along, and whether we get another ruck as depth.

I'm not yet convinced they can both be in the same side, so I would certainly consider trading one for the right price. But that is true of everyone on the list.

I think this is the issue, both in the same side. I think both are capable of being 1st rucks and carrying most of the load with chop outs, although Grundy to me looks to not have the tank to cover the ground at this point in time.

My preference is 1 ruck and relief from White or someone like Gault in the side. Two rucks is a bit of a handbrake on our ability to cover the opposition and to move the ball with pace.

That being said, you would need to bring in a mature ruck as insurance. I believe both will be great rucks so I'd be loath to give one away especially in light of our incapacity to land a decent ruck over the last 15 years, bar Jolly. It's a pity Witts and Grundy are so close in age. The ideal situation would be a 28 year old ruck with a 22 year old coming up.

 

[noideaatall]

The thread was about ruckmen, TG you are a master.

Both Witts and Grundy are above average potential but what really makes it exciting is we have two of them. I suppose a plus is you'd expect at least one of them to fulfill this potential: still what we really want is both in the same team. This will depend on their ability to impact around the ground and up forward, which largely comes down to marking. Both need to be effective targets with an ability to take contested grabs.

Additionally it will also depend on the delivery, given that neither are that mobile, and crumbing. If we are blasting the ball into the forward line, as we have done for years, and not directly too them we will play into the oppositions advantage of mobility and see their direct opponent be able to run off them. If they don't take the grab and we don't have good crumbers at their feet the same will happen. I'd love to see these two team up but I can't see that happening until our ability to crumb and deliver the ball to advantage improves.

 

[Old Spice]

Everything rests on the capacity of one or both players to take marks up forward and convert.

One thing I read from Champion Data the other day which was interesting was the stat on forwards taking contested marks: Hawkins was number one but only took about 1/3 of marks in a one-on-one contest and was 22% above the average. That goes to show that forwards need to get separation from their opponent in order to have a good chance of taking a grab. I guess if the two share ruck duties then they should be fresh enough to find that space but I still have queries on a/. Grundy's fitness and b/. Witts capacity to hold his ground and take a mark.

The other thing is that once both develop the muscle and aerobic capacity to hold down the 1st ruck position in their own right, do we keep both in the side to continue sharing duties or is one permanently plonked up forward and provides relief for 20-30% of the time?

I do worry about having too many slowish players in the side. I prefer a Port/North model where there is one dominant ruck which allows for more pace around the ground. West Coast could work two owing to both Cox and Naitinui's enormous aerobic capacity.

 

[Kappa]

We need Witts to start taking more marks and Grundy to improve his endurance

If both things happen that's an extra 1-2 goals a game for us

 

[frizzle]

Witts needs to get stronger. Just watching the 2nd Carlton game Yesterday & he was moved aside far too easily by Warnock. Beef him up.

 

[PTpie]

yes but they didn't need to rebuild with kids like us and got the mature picks right to challenge sooner rather than later.

They did rebuild. Look at the players they drafted from '09 - '12. Some of those guys are genuine stars. They identified what was needed to improve team balance and the type of players they required for their game plan and recruited and drafted accordingly. It only took them 3 years because they had such a strong base line from the previous complete list rejuvenation between '95 and '05.

Anyway on topic our rucks are developing and are probably ahead of the curve. I wish we had Brogan, Primus, Jolly or Cox at the Club to really accelerate their learning, but we don't. You could probably bet that 1 of Witts or Grundy will be an AA ruck in the next 6 years and make some money on it.

 

[jackcass]

yes but they didn't need to rebuild with kids like us and got the mature picks right to challenge sooner rather than later.

Well in 5 years anyway....

 

[noideaatall]

Witts needs to get stronger. Just watching the 2nd Carlton game Yesterday & he was moved aside far too easily by Warnock. Beef him up.

Agreed. Compare Witts 2014 to 2012/3 though. Just as Grundy came to us with a weak tank, so did Witts arrive weak through the torso. Evidence suggests it is steadily improving and as time passes I think we will see him, with those short legs and long trunk, become an unmoveable object.

 

[didaksrightfoot]

yes but they didn't need to rebuild with kids like us and got the mature picks right to challenge sooner rather than later.

I agree with your comments above that the Hawks since '08 is very much a "what if" for us. (and there are lots of factors why that didn't work out... lets not go there in this thread).

And I agree that the Hawks recruiting, both of youngsters and mature-aged players, is what has really stood them apart from the rest of the competition... but that is the type of thing winning does - it makes players look better (and vice-versa).
If you asked people about our recruiting/development in 2010/11 - people would've been saying the exact same thing about us. You win a flag, and suddenly your whole team is viewed as stars.

But Hawthorns ruck division is a prime example that it is not about getting the best players, but about finding guys who are the right fit for your team.
None of their rucks over the period since 2008 have been gun players. (unless you count Roughy as a ruck)
Campbell and Taylor were (from memory) their premiership rucks that year: average players who just played the role that was asked of them.
Renouf and Bailey's careers were shot down by injuries.
Hale came in as a forward, who could do a bit of rucking, (and hadn't been particularly good at either when at North) - Hawthorn just found the right role for him within their lineup.
McEvoy - I actually expected more of him this year... IMO should be the best of their 3 rucks, but didn't really show that he was clearly better than the other 2 this year- and instead finds himself in a 3-man rotation.
Ceglar - well we all know how he was rated by his previous club... and really it's not that Hawthorn have turned him into a master "ruckman", they just knew that he had good pace/agility for his size that they could take advantage of, and use in a rotation with the other 2 rucks.

Put any of those guys (except McEvoy) in any other team, and you would have a worse result IMO.
---

What we have in Witts and Grundy is a lot of potential. When all is said and done, I think both will turn out to be better ruckman than anyone on that list. (though reaching McEvoy's level as a ruck, is probably a "pass" mark).
The questions that are raised: - can we get them to be effective in the same 21/22? how much pain will we have to go through until they reach that "potential"? and what will our best ruck rotation look like going forward?
I don't think we have clear answers to any of those. Ideally I would like to see both men in the 22, but that requires one (or both) of them to become an effective player around the ground (essentially as a 3rd forward) - that is not that far out of the question for either of them.
The other option is that another player steps up to be a tall forward who can play 20-30% game time in the ruck... White is ok in this role, but this might be something we see from Gault (or maybe even Moore) in the future - it is possibly also a position that we try to recruit for in the next couple of years if the Witts/Grundy combo doesn't look like its gonna work. (I could imagine a potential future trade of Grundy, or Witts, for a younger-Ryder-type of player)

Then how much pain do we put ourselves through? With Lynch and Hudson retiring, there was an opportunity for the team to sign another veteran ruck to be a rookie/vfl/insurance policy (someone like a Mark Seaby)... the fact that we didn't, suggests that the club has some confidence in Witts and Grundy going forward and are willing to accept the short term pain for the potential long term gain - personally I am more than happy with that decision, but as a fanbase we all need to be able to see that vision.

 

[Collingwood pro]

The thread was about ruckmen, TG you are a master.

Both Witts and Grundy are above average potential but what really makes it exciting is we have two of them. I suppose a plus is you'd expect at least one of them to fulfill this potential: still what we really want is both in the same team. This will depend on their ability to impact around the ground and up forward, which largely comes down to marking. Both need to be effective targets with an ability to take contested grabs.

Additionally it will also depend on the delivery, given that neither are that mobile, and crumbing. If we are blasting the ball into the forward line, as we have done for years, and not directly too them we will play into the oppositions advantage of mobility and see their direct opponent be able to run off them. If they don't take the grab and we don't have good crumbers at their feet the same will happen. I'd love to see these two team up but I can't see that happening until our ability to crumb and deliver the ball to advantage improves.

Witts is properly our best crumber, or at least better than Blair.

 

[jmac70]

Hawks just went back to back and as we are floundering below the 8. They won in 08 and came back. We won in 10 lost 11 and dropped right off. Why is that. Poor mature aged recruiting for one and Teo unable coaching staff unable to bond them together like the Hawks did.
Hawks are going at a threepeat. That's the stuff dreams are made of but it could've easily been us. It's not though. Hawks have hardly dropped away since 08 yes they've had the odd year down the ladder between 08-14 but they hit right back. They will probably start favourites again in 15.

I don't think there is any doubt that Hawthorn are the most successful side of the modern era and there are things that we as a club could learn from them. I think that Buckley has begun that process by instilling a more professional approach from the players. In terms of the rucks I am comfortable with relying on Wittts and Grundy. Our age profile is such that we are unlikely to challenge this year. A mature age ruck would take games away from our young rucks when they need as much exposure to AFL as possible.

 

[Vicky Park]

Guys, a bunch of posts have been deleted, mainly on the grounds that they had nothing whatever to do with our two very exciting and promising young ruckmen.

 

[popin]

Guys, a bunch of posts have been deleted, mainly on the grounds that they had nothing whatever to do with our two very exciting and promising young ruckmen.

great work fire-woman sam

 

[TradeDraft]

The thread was about ruckmen, TG you are a master.

Both Witts and Grundy are above average potential but what really makes it exciting is we have two of them. I suppose a plus is you'd expect at least one of them to fulfill this potential: still what we really want is both in the same team. This will depend on their ability to impact around the ground and up forward, which largely comes down to marking. Both need to be effective targets with an ability to take contested grabs.

Additionally it will also depend on the delivery, given that neither are that mobile, and crumbing. If we are blasting the ball into the forward line, as we have done for years, and not directly too them we will play into the oppositions advantage of mobility and see their direct opponent be able to run off them. If they don't take the grab and we don't have good crumbers at their feet the same will happen. I'd love to see these two team up but I can't see that happening until our ability to crumb and deliver the ball to advantage improves.

When was the last time we had 2 very good young Promising Rucks?

 

[Vicky Park]

When was the last time we had 2 very good young Promising Rucks?

Exactly TD. I have followed Collingwood...forever...and I cant recall two young ruckmen who were quite like this, at a similar age. Although it may prove to be difficult to fit both in the team, we dont know that for sure yet. In 2014, we seemed to go OK when both were playing.

 

[TradeDraft]

Exactly TD. I have followed Collingwood...forever...and I cant recall two young ruckmen who were quite like this, at a similar age. Although it may prove to be difficult to fit both in the team, we dont know that for sure yet. In 2014, we seemed to go OK when both were playing.

I thought last year they played quite well together in the Same Team. Both showed Glimpsed of some good Forward Play and neither have a tank to Ruck 90%+ of a Game yet

 

[Jasper84]

When was the last time we had 2 very good young Promising Rucks?

Good point TD. I honestly cannot remember us having any promising ruckmen for a long time. Josh Fraser maybe?

 

[popin]

Good point TD. I honestly cannot remember us having any promising ruckmen for a long time. Josh Fraser maybe?

 

[jackcass]

When was the last time we had 2 very good young Promising Rucks?

Monky and Charlie the last time I can think of when we had 2 good ruckmen. Thommo and Moore before that. Hasn't happened too often. Not at those level yet but certainly looking good.

 

[Vicky Park]

Monky and Charlie the last time I can think of when we had 2 good ruckmen. Thommo and Moore before that. Hasn't happened too often. Not at those level yet but certainly looking good.

Jackass, were Monky and Manson of similar age when at the club? Re Thommo and Moore, Thommo was significantly older. I cant recall if they were both listed players at the club for any period of time.

 

[TradeDraft]

Jackass, were Monky and Manson of similar age when at the club? Re Thommo and Moore, Thommo was significantly older. I cant recall if they were both listed players at the club for any period of time.

Moore was not a bad Replacement for Thommo

 

[Jasper84]

So we have had 2 promising ruckmen in nearly 25 years let alone 2 in the same side? That's crazy!

 

[popin]

So we have had 2 promising ruckmen in nearly 25 years let alone 2 in the same side? That's crazy!

Monkey is the size of two rucks

 

[THATSGOLD]

When was the last time we had 2 very good young Promising Rucks?

Promising... Guy Richards. He was all promise for a few pre seasons. With Josh Fraser by his side.