The Mounting Ruck Problem
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #77
I don't think there is a problem.
There is a bigger issue of players being tackled from behind and sustaining a syndesmosis injury - we aren't looking at changing the rules because a very important Victorian player was injured.
I don't think anyone realizes that the PCL is just as vulnerable in a straight leg jump landing as it is with a shin collision. And what do we think would happen if they jump chest to chest, will we will see rucks landing with a straight leg after being off balance in the contact? Then we will see PCL injuries.
Welcome to the nature of contact sport.
There is a bigger issue of players being tackled from behind and sustaining a syndesmosis injury - we aren't looking at changing the rules because a very important Victorian player was injured.
I don't think anyone realizes that the PCL is just as vulnerable in a straight leg jump landing as it is with a shin collision. And what do we think would happen if they jump chest to chest, will we will see rucks landing with a straight leg after being off balance in the contact? Then we will see PCL injuries.
Welcome to the nature of contact sport.
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Injuries happen, both innocuously and in the course of forceful actions (ie tackles). Other than In the rare exception where there’s a deliberate intention to cause harm (Hall punching out Staker), injuries are just a by product of a contact sport. So unless they want to abolish all form of contact which would destroy the fabric of the game, some of this can just be put down to sheer bad luck
BringFevBack2021
Norm Smith Medallist
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Source on this? My understanding has always been that it’s a bent knee impact injury primarily. I know hyperextension can cause it, as well as twisting - but that’s more likely to cause the dreaded ACL, see Judd’s below:
Or Tex Walker:
Versus Jack Riewoldt, with a PCL occurring from bent knee contact:
Or Wells with his PCL, from bent knee contact to the turf as well:
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You said it wasn't 'fair' if they share possessions back and forth. When it kinda literally is fair.
I don't really care if they remove the bounce and just throw it up, it indirectly benefits the quality of umpires by removing a skill barrier for entry that has nothing to do with adjudication of the rules, which is what the umpires are actually there to do.
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There's really only one logical and simple solution, but the purists won't like it.
Get rid of the bounce and get rid of the run up. That's it.
Ball gets thrown up at every ruck contest and the rucks start closer together and come off only 1-2 steps.
Get rid of the bounce and get rid of the run up. That's it.
Ball gets thrown up at every ruck contest and the rucks start closer together and come off only 1-2 steps.
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #83
You're right, allow me to fill in a scary added blank. Most PCL injuries come with another ligament injury, half of these are ACLs.
So do we want to increase the risk of a 12 month injury with straight leg jumps or do we want to wear the reality that some players might get a 12 week injury?
If you thought Grundy's 7 year contract looked bad now, just imagine the disaster if they make ruck work irrelevant at the end of the year and Pies have basically a slow, oversized midfielder who is an average mark on $1m a year for the next 6 years.
This is specifically the reason I was so worried about that contract. No area of the game gets changed more than ruck contests and a little thing like bringing back 3rd man up would make him significantly less important.
This is specifically the reason I was so worried about that contract. No area of the game gets changed more than ruck contests and a little thing like bringing back 3rd man up would make him significantly less important.
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #88
Players run back with the flight or stand in the space ahead of a leading forward who jumps to mark with a natural knee up body position.
Do we ban the players standing in the space or moving with the flight of the ball into oncoming traffic?
Do we ban the leading forward contesting the ball where someone is moving back with the flight of the ball or standing in space?
OR Do we accept that in a contact sport there will be unlucky injuries?
If you allow ruckmen to wear shin guards that distribute shear to the bottom of the femur (just think knee) when the upper shin is contacted you'll remove the PCL injury from this contact.
They will also be able to put their knee into any opponent without it hurting them as much, if at all, and the opposition player will come off worse. So you don't get without giving.
Do we ban the players standing in the space or moving with the flight of the ball into oncoming traffic?
Do we ban the leading forward contesting the ball where someone is moving back with the flight of the ball or standing in space?
OR Do we accept that in a contact sport there will be unlucky injuries?
If you allow ruckmen to wear shin guards that distribute shear to the bottom of the femur (just think knee) when the upper shin is contacted you'll remove the PCL injury from this contact.
They will also be able to put their knee into any opponent without it hurting them as much, if at all, and the opposition player will come off worse. So you don't get without giving.
BigPond101
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I understand your feelings but this attitude is about 40 years dead in 2022. It would be like a cricketer trying to bat without a helmet because they have pride and they understand the risks. At some level an administrator would step in say.. yeah nah. Something similar should happen with kneepads for rucks in AFL
BringFevBack2021
Norm Smith Medallist
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I’d like your source on these claims as this just seems to be the subject of your interpretation of PCL injuries and associated consequences rather than an understanding of the mechanism of injury.
Quick google suggests it’s pretty rare to happen simultaneously.
I’m not sure a rule change for straight leg jumping is required but perhaps at the very least protecting the knees with gel padding as proposed by multiple posters is necessary.
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #91
Isolated posterior cruciate ligament tears: an update of management - PMC
Isolated posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) tears are much less frequent than anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) tears. Abrupt posterior tibial translation (such as dashboard impact), falls in hyperflexion and direct hyperextension trauma are the most ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
So you admit it's a coincidence?
BringFevBack2021
Norm Smith Medallist
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You’re reading it backwardsIsolated posterior cruciate ligament tears: an update of management - PMC
Isolated posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) tears are much less frequent than anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) tears. Abrupt posterior tibial translation (such as dashboard impact), falls in hyperflexion and direct hyperextension trauma are the most ...
Either way, I do agree with you on padding.
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Not at all, would be defending Pittonet if it was reversed.
Take rucking against Nic Nat for example.
If you don’t watch him before the ball, he could step you and grab it out the air. You need opponent awareness to ruck.
All rucks watch their opponent.
Go ask little billy a 5 footy 6 player if he wants to ruck against a 6 foot 5 player. His first reaction will be **** no I'll get injured.
See when a player is too scared to ruck because of high risk of injury you know you got an issue.
Maybe we should ask people who have rucked before at a local level or afl level. Because to little billy it seems pretty barbaric the idea of two people jumping up and kneeing each other. Lets not kid ourselves ruckman's mindset is lets go out there and smash into them with our knees and win the centre bounce.
TheOptimum18
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The more important question here should be who gave the idea to little Billy here that he could/should be a ruck man?
Taylor
Community Leader
- Moderator
- #97
This isn't a game of equality. Bigger and stronger men will have advantages in some areas that shorter and weaker men don't.
That same 5ft 6 player would be aware of the damage that will happen to them backing into a 6ft 6 key forward on the lead.
We don't have different rules in writing for shorter players being able to chop the arms because they can't reach as high as the taller players.
Tackling is also dangerous, far more dangerous to even ruckmen than this aerial contest. Maybe that needs to be removed too. The tackle from behind has been removed from other sports around the world after all.
Well at local level there are not much tall people. Even at wafl level most players are <200 cm. There is major height and weight disparity.
So the idea of a 185cm ruckman at local level vs 195 cm 120kg ruck isn't that odd
TheOptimum18
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Considering AFL clubs are willing to ruck midfielders/medium-tall key forwards against 200cm+ ruckmen, you do the most obvious thing: plan around the ruckman instead of getting into a physical ruck battle.
