The mysterious behaviour of Alavi and Charter

[Proper Gander]

I can't believe people still doubt hirdy , he will be a premiership coach soon enough and I think some of you guys need to show him a bit more respect hey ...

Maybe ... Not this year I suspect.

Seriously, if and when come back and tell me about it. Not having a go - promise. But I fear you will have a seriously bad time on Bigfooty with those kind of predictions, so hold it in.

I know. I posted random predictions about Watts being the 'breakout' player for 2015 - I'm still fielding the insults coming back...

 

[Satan]

Maybe ... Not this year I suspect.

Seriously, if and when come back and tell me about it. Not having a go - promise. But I fear you will have a seriously bad time on Bigfooty with those kind of predictions, so hold it in.

I know. I posted random predictions about Watts being the 'breakout' player for 2015 - I'm still fielding the insults coming back...

There could be a million predictions on the Htb and i reckon most are wrong

 

[Big Fozza]

They are both grubs and both only have their own self interests in mind. I think the mysterious behaviour goes a lot further than just these 2

I've got those financials ready for you mate

 

[Big Fozza]

Laphroaig is of the opinion that Hird orchestrated the whole thing.

ASADA is of the opinion that Dank orchestrated the whole thing.

Dank and Hird are of the opinion that no banned substances were taken.

Charter is of the opinion that the players were doped but duped.

Alavi doesn't know what he compounded, nor where it ended up.

Hird must be a fricken evil mastermind to pull all that off. Well played Hirdy.

I'm of the opinion that Hird decided he would do whatever it takes to win. And then proceeded to cheat.

 

[Laphroaig]

Hird would have received an SCN if there was evidence that he provided support to a doping program

Has he received one? Will he receive one? Should he receive one?

You don't know the answer to any of the above. Or at least don't want to know.

The scuttlebutt says that even the nutless AFLPA want him gone for life though. But hey. Be morally flexible.

 

[andrewb]

Has he received one? Will he receive one? Should he receive one?

You don't know the answer to any of the above. Or at least don't want to know.

The scuttlebutt says that even the nutless AFLPA want him gone for life though. But hey. Be morally flexible.

Mate I checked your story on Hird's business dealings with charter and there's nothing to it. Whoever has been feeding you has been feeding you bullshit.

Players have all the evidence and still back the coach. Club has all the evidence and still backs the coach. Unless evidence emerges to the contrary I'll back the coach too.

 

[BlueWorld]

No proof that we ever crossed the boundaries, plenty that we went right to the edge. Naive risk assessment and management.

Naive? or clever planning so no one would ever find out. When you go right to the edge There's every chance you'll go over. Just need no records and no one will ever find out.

 

[60sbomber]

It's amazing that someone starts a thread about how dodgy Charter and Alavi are, and within about 5 pages, the usual crew turn it into a thread about the evil Hird.
It is a pathetic preoccupation that has passed its useby date.
He is still coach of Essendon, no matter how much opposition supporters try to twist things to make him somehow the chief culprit in a PED free for all, that, so far as actual evidence is concerned, seems like it didn't happen.

After two and a half years of the grubbiest, most unethical and manipulated investigation ever conceived, undertaken by the AFL and ASADA combined, the only thing they have established is that the EFC was guilty of "poor governance", while taking not so much as a cursory glance at all the other clubs who may or may not have been doing something similar, at least in the way of governance.

The EFC and Hird have survived the most critical scrutiny imaginable, and have stayed strong. Their supporters have stayed strong. And above all else, a magnificent playing group have stayed strong (save for Judas).

Get over it.
You're gonna have to get used to it.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

The EFC and Hird have survived the most critical scrutiny imaginable, and have stayed strong. Their supporters have stayed strong. And above all else, a magnificent playing group have stayed strong (save for Judas).

Rubbish.

 

[Satan]

It's amazing that someone starts a thread about how dodgy Charter and Alavi are, and within about 5 pages, the usual crew turn it into a thread about the evil Hird.
It is a pathetic preoccupation that has passed its useby date.
He is still coach of Essendon, no matter how much opposition supporters try to twist things to make him somehow the chief culprit in a PED free for all, that, so far as actual evidence is concerned, seems like it didn't happen.

After two and a half years of the grubbiest, most unethical and manipulated investigation ever conceived, undertaken by the AFL and ASADA combined, the only thing they have established is that the EFC was guilty of "poor governance", while taking not so much as a cursory glance at all the other clubs who may or may not have been doing something similar, at least in the way of governance.

The EFC and Hird have survived the most critical scrutiny imaginable, and have stayed strong. Their supporters have stayed strong. And above all else, a magnificent playing group have stayed strong (save for Judas).

Get over it.
You're gonna have to get used to it.

Is Judas a rookie ? cant find him in Supercoach

 

[Laphroaig]

Mate I checked your story on Hird's business dealings with charter and there's nothing to it. Whoever has been feeding you has been feeding you bullshit.

Players have all the evidence and still back the coach. Club has all the evidence and still backs the coach. Unless evidence emerges to the contrary I'll back the coach too.

Your welcome to your "version". And you didn't look hard enough. Wonder why.

 

[Jimthegreat]

It's amazing that someone starts a thread about how dodgy Charter and Alavi are, and within about 5 pages, the usual crew turn it into a thread about the evil Hird.
It is a pathetic preoccupation that has passed its useby date.
He is still coach of Essendon, no matter how much opposition supporters try to twist things to make him somehow the chief culprit in a PED free for all, that, so far as actual evidence is concerned, seems like it didn't happen.

After two and a half years of the grubbiest, most unethical and manipulated investigation ever conceived, undertaken by the AFL and ASADA combined, the only thing they have established is that the EFC was guilty of "poor governance", while taking not so much as a cursory glance at all the other clubs who may or may not have been doing something similar, at least in the way of governance.

The EFC and Hird have survived the most critical scrutiny imaginable, and have stayed strong. Their supporters have stayed strong. And above all else, a magnificent playing group have stayed strong (save for Judas).

Get over it.
You're gonna have to get used to it.

Until it ends up in the CAS and that panel is satisfied that Chinese shipment is TB4. We know players went injected with whatever was in that shipment. If Dank get done for administering hexarelin into the players, as is one of many things he he is charged with, it'll look even worse. Lucky ASADA couldn't work out which players got that drug.

Essendon got the scutiny they deserved for the terrible pharmacological experimentation on the players. Hird was front and centre at all that. You know that was a disgrace. Not that Essendon supporters care aabout their players as long as they got off on some sort of technicality.

What's more laughable, you let go a great coach in bomber and kept a shit one in hird out of bloody-mindedness.

What a shit club.

 

[Gavstar]

Mate I checked your story on Hird's business dealings with charter and there's nothing to it. Whoever has been feeding you has been feeding you bullshit.

Players have all the evidence and still back the coach. Club has all the evidence and still backs the coach. Unless evidence emerges to the contrary I'll back the coach too.

I thought the club has all the evidence (lol) and wanted to sack the coach but $6M was too high price to pay?

There is more to this story than any of us are aware who or what was the ACC investigating and what was the link to organised crime?

Charters is a convicted criminal, for dealing in illegal drugs he was in the supply chain and EFC staff were aware of this and did....... nothing? That to me is suspicious in its own right.

Hird best case scenario is willful blindness.

 

[Gavstar]

The EFC and Hird have survived the most critical scrutiny imaginable, and have stayed strong. Their supporters have stayed strong. And above all else, a magnificent playing group have stayed strong (save for Judas).

Which Judas?
Riemers ?
Crameri?
Ryder?
Prismall?
Evans?

 

[60sbomber]

Until it ends up in the CAS and that panel is satisfied that Chinese shipment is TB4. We know players went injected with whatever was in that shipment.

I hate to put a hole in your hopes, but we actually don't know that players were injected with whatever was in that shipment.
The tribunal required 4 things before they could find guilt
1. Charter procured TB4 from China
2. TB4 was delivered to Alavi
3. Alavi compounded TB4 and gave it to Dank
4. Dank took it to EFC and injected it into each of the charged players.

The tribunal found that 1. was not established. It found also that, as a consequence, 2 and 3. could not be established.
IT DIDN'T EVEN CONSIDER 4. BECAUSE IT DIDN'T NEED TO.

It also said, in its judgement, that it noted that at the time, Alavi was compounding a great many substances for Dank, the majority of which were for his use at his anti-ageing clinics.
It was gentle hint that ASADA would have to show that the TB4, if could establish that is what it was, was used at Essendon, and not the anti-ageing clinics.
Heaven help ASADA trying to get all the way to that, and then beyond, to actually establish that 34 players were given the substance. Maybe that is why ASADA concocted the idea of the second shipment (which the Tribunal found probably never existed), since the 26 vials from the first shipment weren't enough to serve the purpose that ASADA was alleging.

 

[Gavstar]

I hate to put a hole in your hopes, but we actually don't know that players were injected with whatever was in that shipment.
The tribunal required 4 things before they could find guilt
1. Charter procured TB4 from China
2. TB4 was delivered to Alavi
3. Alavi compounded TB4 and gave it to Dank
4. Dank took it to EFC and injected it into each of the charged players.

The tribunal found that 1. was not established. It found also that, as a consequence, 2 and 3. could not be established.
IT DIDN'T EVEN CONSIDER 4. BECAUSE IT DIDN'T NEED TO.

It also said, in its judgement, that it noted that at the time, Alavi was compounding a great many substances for Dank, the majority of which were for his use at his anti-ageing clinics.
It was gentle hint that ASADA would have to show that the TB4, if could establish that is what it was, was used at Essendon, and not the anti-ageing clinics.
Heaven help ASADA trying to get all the way to that, and then beyond, to actually establish that 34 players were given the substance. Maybe that is why ASADA concocted the idea of the second shipment (which the Tribunal found probably never existed), since the 26 vials from the first shipment weren't enough to serve the purpose that ASADA was alleging.

I believe they are wrong for the first three given the molecular weight of the compound.

I should add its highly probable that ASADA ran a poor prosecution that meant the Tribunal couldn't make any other decision.

With this decision a Devils advocate could argue that Armstrong could not have been convicted as none of the witnesses would have been 100% certain to what motoman was delivering just that they believed it to be EPO.

Who did Motoman buy it from? Was an analysis done on it prior to supply to the team? Etc etc I guarantee US Postal would have made sure no one could trace the supply chain from start to finish.

 

[BlueWorld]

I hate to put a hole in your hopes, but we actually don't know that players were injected with whatever was in that shipment.
The tribunal required 4 things before they could find guilt
1. Charter procured TB4 from China
2. TB4 was delivered to Alavi
3. Alavi compounded TB4 and gave it to Dank
4. Dank took it to EFC and injected it into each of the charged players.

The tribunal found that 1. was not established. It found also that, as a consequence, 2 and 3. could not be established.
IT DIDN'T EVEN CONSIDER 4. BECAUSE IT DIDN'T NEED TO.

It also said, in its judgement, that it noted that at the time, Alavi was compounding a great many substances for Dank, the majority of which were for his use at his anti-ageing clinics.
It was gentle hint that ASADA would have to show that the TB4, if could establish that is what it was, was used at Essendon, and not the anti-ageing clinics.
Heaven help ASADA trying to get all the way to that, and then beyond, to actually establish that 34 players were given the substance. Maybe that is why ASADA concocted the idea of the second shipment (which the Tribunal found probably never existed), since the 26 vials from the first shipment weren't enough to serve the purpose that ASADA was alleging.

Keep distorting the facts. The tribunal said that all 3 believed they were dealing with TB4. Heaven help that an AFL club like the EFC should have appropriate records and deal with characters who weren't deliberately trying to cover up what they were doing. But I suppose that is something EFC supporters are proud of. They pulled it off.

 

[nineteen eighty]

Mate I checked your story on Hird's business dealings with charter and there's nothing to it. Whoever has been feeding you has been feeding you bullshit.

Players have all the evidence and still back the coach. Club has all the evidence and still backs the coach. Unless evidence emerges to the contrary I'll back the coach too.

It's on public record that the club tried to sack Hird. Wonder what happened for them to go back on that?
I would think that Hird has enough to bring a lot of EFC people down with him...including some very senior people.

Until it ends up in the CAS and that panel is satisfied that Chinese shipment is TB4. We know players went injected with whatever was in that shipment. If Dank get done for administering hexarelin into the players, as is one of many things he he is charged with, it'll look even worse. Lucky ASADA couldn't work out which players got that drug.

Essendon got the scutiny they deserved for the terrible pharmacological experimentation on the players. Hird was front and centre at all that. You know that was a disgrace. Not that Essendon supporters care aabout their players as long as they got off on some sort of technicality.

What's more laughable, you let go a great coach in bomber and kept a shit one in hird out of bloody-mindedness.

What a shit club.

My sentiments exactly Jimmy.

I don't think however that Hird was kept out of bloody-mindedness. He was being pushed out the door when he managed to "convince" the powers that be that they shouldn't sack him. Wonder how he managed to "convince" them?

 

[nineteen eighty]

It's amazing that someone starts a thread about how dodgy Charter and Alavi are, and within about 5 pages, the usual crew turn it into a thread about the evil Hird.
It is a pathetic preoccupation that has passed its useby date.
He is still coach of Essendon, no matter how much opposition supporters try to twist things to make him somehow the chief culprit in a PED free for all, that, so far as actual evidence is concerned, seems like it didn't happen.

After two and a half years of the grubbiest, most unethical and manipulated....

I thought that after these words you were going to say something about the pharmacological experiment inflicted on the players but no chance. No-one actually gives a damn about what was inflicted on the players.

 

[nineteen eighty]

I hate to put a hole in your hopes, but we actually don't know that players were injected with whatever was in that shipment.
The tribunal required 4 things before they could find guilt
1. Charter procured TB4 from China
2. TB4 was delivered to Alavi
3. Alavi compounded TB4 and gave it to Dank
4. Dank took it to EFC and injected it into each of the charged players.

The tribunal found that 1. was not established. It found also that, as a consequence, 2 and 3. could not be established.
IT DIDN'T EVEN CONSIDER 4. BECAUSE IT DIDN'T NEED TO.

....

Yeah nah. You're making things up now.

 

[jenny61_99]

I can't believe people still doubt hirdy , he will be a premiership coach soon enough and I think some of you guys need to show him a bit more respect hey ...

You have to earn respect. There's currently no one in footy I disrespect more.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

I hate to put a hole in your hopes, but we actually don't know that players were injected with whatever was in that shipment.
The tribunal required 4 things before they could find guilt
1. Charter procured TB4 from China
2. TB4 was delivered to Alavi
3. Alavi compounded TB4 and gave it to Dank
4. Dank took it to EFC and injected it into each of the charged players.

The tribunal found that 1. was not established. It found also that, as a consequence, 2 and 3. could not be established.
IT DIDN'T EVEN CONSIDER 4. BECAUSE IT DIDN'T NEED TO.

It also said, in its judgement, that it noted that at the time, Alavi was compounding a great many substances for Dank, the majority of which were for his use at his anti-ageing clinics.
It was gentle hint that ASADA would have to show that the TB4, if could establish that is what it was, was used at Essendon, and not the anti-ageing clinics.
Heaven help ASADA trying to get all the way to that, and then beyond, to actually establish that 34 players were given the substance. Maybe that is why ASADA concocted the idea of the second shipment (which the Tribunal found probably never existed), since the 26 vials from the first shipment weren't enough to serve the purpose that ASADA was alleging.

The way I read the limited extracts we've been fed, the tribunal had 2 points where they were not comfortably satisfied:

Firstly they doubted the source in providing what was ordered, however didn't advise why they doubted this international supplier would not fulfil the order. Does this company have a governance issue themselves? This is one area that I would think that CAS would revisit.

Secondly they were not comfortably satisfied that the "TB4" (or whatever it was) continued on through the chain and wasn't diverted off for other use, before unconfirmed substances were injected as part of the EFC supplements program. Given the test information that was available (molecular weight) and CAS having the ability to approach the NSW Supreme Court to subpeona witnesses (something ASADA "notoriously" attempted and exhausted all avenues for, to demonstrate that it didn't have sufficient powers for), there is something here to test on appeal as well.

Intent was not referenced against the individual players in their INs and even had it been, the tribunal found that the players had no knowledge of what they were injected with.

The remaining INs yet to be decided do look to hold a staffer responsible and guilty of intent. If this can be upheld then further staffers may be chased. If this happens, then we could see senior players could still be caught up in all of this.

Destruction and/ or loss and/ or failure to keep adequate records are symptons of larger problems, rather than the single problem itself. The longer the duration it occurs/covers, the deeper and wider it has to go within a governance program to continue to be successful.
And this one has been very successful in dodging any external penalties, so far (I am calling the AFL penallties as an internal, negotiated solution, that somehow went awry).

 

[andrewb]

Your welcome to your "version". And you didn't look hard enough. Wonder why.

I looked harder than you did! I know now that Hird was a director in a company called Pig, Jimmy and Roo Boy Enterprises which is, tbh, pretty embarrassing for all involved.

Where is this link that you keep foaming about? Evidence or stfu.

 

[Red_Emperor]

You have to earn respect. There's currently no one in footy I disrespect more.

Get fair dinkum- Hird was one of the most respected identities in football going around before this mess, and earned every bit of it. Because you did not have the decency to say "I have lost respect for Hird" puts you in a very low lying category.

 

[Red_Emperor]

Keep distorting the facts. The tribunal said that all 3 believed they were dealing with TB4. Heaven help that an AFL club like the EFC should have appropriate records and deal with characters who weren't deliberately trying to cover up what they were doing. But I suppose that is something EFC supporters are proud of. They pulled it off.

You're still clinging and rabbiting on about records,. but at least we have moved on from no records to "appropriate record". For that you should be applauded.