Play Nice The NM Devil's Chessboard Thread - Part II

[the big lebowski]

Hamas is bad.
Ultra-nationalist Israeli's are bad.
All Nazis are bad.
Bibi is bad.
Putin is bad.
Hezbollah is bad.
Orban is bad.
Lukashenko is bad.
Trump is bad.

There. My positions are clarified. Glad that's settled.

What about me?

 

[Chadwiko]

What about me?

 

[tazaa]

Yes there are many right wing crazies in the Israeli cabinet and across the country as a whole. I’m unsure of what level of support this way of thinking has across the country.

What is the support like for Hamas in Gaza?

Given that Hamas mission statement is to kill Jews, and let the tree hiding the Jew yell out “there is a Jew here” quick kill it. Given that Hamas state their aim is to kill Jews, and they are clearly good at it (see Oct 7 2023).

What do the people of Gaza think about this group that they elected?

Edit: googling things works just as well as asking

Gazans increasingly back a two-state solution, as support for Hamas drops

Support for a two-state solution nearly doubled in Gaza, as fewer back “armed struggle” for an independent Palestinian state.

www.nbcnews.com

So around 34% of Gaza support Hamas post oct 7. Down 13% since oct 7.

So would that mean that 47% of Gaza population would like to kill a Jew hiding behind a tree?

I wonder what % of Australians would like to wipe out another country who elected leadership whose stated aim was to kill any Australian hiding behind a tree and had 47% support to do that?

Hopefully we never have to find out

Edit 2: around 50% of Israelis support a two state solution that would see those that want to murder them for being Jews, given their own country

As international support for an independent Palestine grows, here’s what Israelis and Palestinians now think of the two-state solution

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is opposed to a two-state solution, but many ordinary Israelis and Palestinians don’t feel the same way.

theconversation.com

There is no rationalising this conversation.

There are 700,000 Palestinians who want their homes back.
There are millions more in the 76 years since their grandparents were removed by force that will never be able to return.

The reality is the state of Israel is a failed state, built as settler colonial outpost for Europeans to migrate to and as a strategic ally for the US to have in the middle east. This is simply Zionism.

Starting in the 1880s, the Zionist movement set up colonies in Palestine and promoted Jewish mass immigration.
The movement spread the false and deeply racist idea that Palestine was a land without people for a people without a land. Zionist settler colonialism enjoyed the political support of Western imperial powers.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on 10 November 1975, "Determines that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination" with 72 votes in favour, 35 votes against, and 32 abstentions. It was revoked on 16 December 1991 due to powerful lobbying to give validity to the state of Israel.

You cannot simply take a view upon a conflict that began in 1948 and make sense of it all without acknowledging the above.

The Nakba is the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs through their violent displacement and dispossession of land, property, and belongings, along with the destruction of their society and the suppression of their culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe the events of the 1948 Palestine war in Palestine as well as the ongoing persecution and displacement of Palestinians by Israel.
As a whole, it covers the fracturing of Palestinian society and the long-running rejection of the right of return for Palestinian refugees and their descendants.

It doesn't matter what Palestinian Arabs and Jews want.
The Israeli government is racist, dangerous and has no regard for human life.
Unless the above is acknowledged and used as the starting point, everything else is irrelevant.
Israel has taken something that wasnt theres. They justify it by quoting scriptures that date back 3000 years.
Its bullshit.

Hence why this conflict will go on forever. There will never be peace. And history will always side with the occupied, not the occupiers. So for that, **** Israel.

 

[Chadwiko]

There is no rationalising this conversation.

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

If you don't come in this thread often tazaa there's a bunch of historical context that won't be readily apparent to you.

 

[ferball]

View attachment 2137546

A cover? This is the worst thing I've seen posted in this thread.

 

[tazaa]

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

If you don't come in this thread often tazaa there's a bunch of historical context that won't be readily apparent to you.

No I have been following that narrative.

There needs to be an acknowledgement of the sheer hypocrisy of it all.

Russia has been called out for its actions by the west.
Whereas Israel can cause destruction with impunity and is supported and backed in equivocally without question.

Ukraine is getting help from their aggressor.
Palestine is getting absolutely none.

I’m making the point of never to conflate the 2. At all.

 

[ferball]

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

If you don't come in this thread often tazaa there's a bunch of historical context that won't be readily apparent to you.

The context here has always been US intervention in Ukrainian politics (since 2004 when they sent Paul Manafort to worm his way into Yanukovych's inner circle) led to this war, not "Yay Russia" or any of the shit you claim about people.

BTW Ukraine still discriminates against Roma people, even they are happy to have them fighting Russia. Just not so happy to let them access the same supports other internally displaced people in Ukraine get, or get voting rights/citizenship yet and if they've left the country odds are they won't be allowed back in. (A little bit like what's happened to Palestinians until last year.) You want us to support freedom for some but not for others.

 

[giantroo]

 

[The Warlord]

There’s a whole lot of differences but at the end of the day it’s killing people vs killing people.

No it isn't.

That's the same flawed logic that leads Chadwiko to think two pictures of cities in rubble are by definition "the same" because concrete is concrete.

Israel's Prime Minister invoked religion - Amalek - when they started the Gaza campaign, which has been a a very studiously planned and carried out mission to destroy EVERYTHING in Gaza, to make it unhabitable, and done with absolutely no regard for civilian life.

The only organisation recently to carry out that kind of deliberate attempt to wipe out an entire people in the name of religion was Daesh against the Yazidis.

But Daesh was never a state recognised by the UN.

Israel is.

We actually have no real comparator for what Israel is doing in history.

You need to go back to the British Empire or Nazis to find an example of a technologically advanced power using every weapon at its disposal for the express purpose of removing an entire population numbering in the millions - one that is completely defenceless in the face of these advanced weapons.

And doing it completely openly and without and regard at all for basic human rights.

This is unprecedented in our experience - it has not happened in living memory.

Its genocide, plain and simple.

Russia and Ukraine are fighting a war, and have been since 2014 (as Zelensky himself says). Its a big war sure, and the biggest in Europe in living memory.

But its the same scale as the Iran - Iraq War, and all things considered, its quite a strange old school war in that both sides have largely restricted themselves to military targets, and even when civilian/dual use infrastructure is attacked, it hasn't been utterly wiped out in the way Israel has done to Gaza.

Comparing Ukraine and Gaza simply isn't possible. Its apples and oranges, they are not the same thing.

One is a war and the other is a genocide.

To pretend otherwise is to deny the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza, to deny that millions of people are being systemically killed and their entire society destroyed at every single level.

 

[The Warlord]

Literally no one here is rationalising Israel's atrocities or supporting it.

You are.

The context here is, and always has been, specifically about the little posse that resides in this thread that cheerleads and justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine. They do things like make excuses for Russia saying shit that amounts to "well, at least they aren't flattening cities like Israel! See! Israel's the real bad guys! Pay attention to them, not Russia"!

Right here you're doing it. Literally right here.

You're rationalisng Israel's action by comparing them to what Russia is doing.

Simple question.

Do you believe the Israeli campaign in Gaza since October 7 (they started bombing that very day) is genocide?

 

[The Warlord]

There's frigging nightclubs pumping in Kyiv and Lvov, and people are comparing it with Gaza where there's full blown famine and polio has made a resurgence ffs. Catch the **** ontae yourselves.

These are NOT the same things, and pretending they are is clear denial of the ongoing genocide in Gaza. Fact.

 

[andana]

There are 700,000 Palestinians who want their homes back.

The only way seems to be direct action. Most people would fight for it.