Discussion The VFA premierships debate - should they be recognised as elite level premierships?

[footyfan1978]

University played in the VFA for four seasons but had dropped to the Metropolitan league in the late 1890's
VFA 1885 to 1888
MJFA 1892, 1905-1907
VFL 1908-1914
VJL 1919-1920
MAFA/VAFA 1921+

I believe in some way University was absorbed/taken over into the Melbourne Football Club at end of 1914. Rarely talked about but I think that is how it played out.
Also Essendon VFA team that played in Essendon whilst the Essendon VFL team played at East Melbourne was similarly absorbed by North Melbourne. Essendon VFL was then allowed to play in Essendon, EMFG got turned into Railway yards where they used to play and North like vultures took what was left of Essendon VFA club. Then North joined the VFL in 1925. I think their first VFL grand final was against Essendon too...

 

[Michael Riley]

I believe in some way University was absorbed/taken over into the Melbourne Football Club at end of 1914. Rarely talked about but I think that is how it played out.
Also Essendon VFA team that played in Essendon whilst the Essendon VFL team played at East Melbourne was similarly absorbed by North Melbourne. Essendon VFL was then allowed to play in Essendon, EMFG got turned into Railway yards where they used to play and North like vultures took what was left of Essendon VFA club. Then North joined the VFL in 1925. I think their first VFL grand final was against Essendon too...

There is a good recount of the 1921 events at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1921_VFA_season
NM reformed at the end of 1921 and many of the Essendon A players moved across

PlayerName	Summary	Wiki	CountOfID
King, George L.	Ports 1914, EssA 1919-1921, NM 1922-1924, Will 1925-1926	George King (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	20
Rawle, George	NM 1911-1915, 1918-1921, EssA 1921, NM 1922, Cwll 1926	George Rawle - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	20
Shorten, Edward. H. 'Teddy'	EssA 1919-1921, NM 1922-1924	Teddy Shorten - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	20
Walsh, J. D. 'Dave'	EssA 1920-1921, NM 1921, EssA 1921, NM 1921, EssA 1921, NM 1922-1924	Dave Walsh (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	20
Fielding, F. G.	EssA 1919-1921, NM 1922-1923		19
Giles, A. F. 'Archie'	EssA 1920, NM 1922-1924	Archie Giles - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	18
Smith, Billy	EssA 1921, NM 1922-1924	Billy Smith (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	17
Linton, Albert 'Curly'	EssA 1915, NM 1922-1924, Yville 1928-1929	Curly Linton - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	15
Strownix, Tom	EssA 1914-1915, 1919-1921, NM 1922-1923	Tom Strownix - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	11
Metcalf, J 'Fred'	EssA 1921, NM 1922-1924	Fred Metcalf - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	8
Russell, G. J.	EssA 1920-1921, NM 1922		7
Maher, T	EssA 1921, NM 1922		3
Wilson, A _EssA21	NM 1921, EssA 1921, NM 1922		3
Blackman, C. D.	Ncte 1914, Haw 1919, EssA 1921, Haw 1921, EssA 1921, NM 1922		1
Giles, J _NM22	EssA 1921, NM 1922		1
Mannix, _NM22	EssA 1921, NM 1922		1
Gardiner, Paddy	NM 1918-1924, Cbg 1925-1930	Paddy Gardiner | Boyles Football Photos www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au	20
Johnston, Harold	NM 1920, 1922-1924, Sand 1930	Harold Johnston (footballer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	20
Woodington, Albert	NM 1913-1914, 1919-1923		19
Lambe, Alf	NM 1922-1924	Alf Lambe - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	16
Kew Ming, Les	NM 1922-1923		15
Russ, Bill	NM 1922-1924	Bill Russ - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	14
Doolan, James	NM 1922		13
Lindsay, Duncan	NM 1922-1923, Ports 1931	Duncan Lindsay (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	12
Ross, Ken. R.	NM 1922-1924, Foots 1924, NM 1924, Foots 1924		9
Simpson, A	NM 1922		9
Thomas, Stan _NM22	NM 1922		4
Edwards, T _NM22	NM 1922		3
O'Dee, Bert	NM 1922	Bert O'Dee - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	3
Rohsburn, William	NM 1922		3
Bannon,	NM 1921-1922		2
James, _NM22	NM 1922		2
Milburn, Charlie	NM 1918-1922	Charlie Milburn - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	2
Shepherd, A. E.	NM 1922, Foots 1924		2
Cottons, _NM22	NM 1922		1
Lewis, Johnny	NM 1921-1924	Johnny Lewis (footballer) - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	1
Lineen, _NM22	NM 1922		1
Mood, _NM22	NM 1922		1
Randell, _NM22	NM 1922		1
Rutley, Fred	NM 1922-1924	Fred Rutley - Wikipedia en.wikipedia.org	1
Steith, L. _Bri22	NM 1922, Bri 1922		1
Voight, _NM22	NM 1922		1

 

[Michael Riley]

I believe in some way University was absorbed/taken over into the Melbourne Football Club at end of 1914. Rarely talked about but I think that is how it played out.

Many of the University players served in WW1 and they would have had difficulty fielding a team in 1915.

Of the 37 players used by university in 1914, five went to Melbourne and one went to South Melbourne.
In 1914 University had one team in the VFL and one team in the Metropolitan Junior Football Association. In 1915 both teams stopped playing. University A and B teams participated again for the first time in the Victorian Junior League (Precursor to the VFL Seconds) when it began in 1919. This new League consisted mainly of MJFA teams who had been aligned the VFL teams. In 1919 the MJFA, did not play.

Both University teams eventually moved back across to the Amateurs, which arose out of the ashes of the Metropolitan Association.

If you are interested have a look at http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article47-Class-and-Warfare-The-MAFA-and-the-VFL-Seconds

 

[Our Game]

At an 'AFL as the league' level I completely agree with you.

The problem is the sport and history of Australian football, including the histories of most current AFL clubs, actually extends back outside of the VFL/AFL.

There is now no overarching body to oversee Australian football as the AFL gobbled up the ANFC in the 1990s.

So at an 'AFL as the keeper of the code' level I would say the AFL has done a poor job at acknowledging the sport outside its own domain. Most of the time if you didn't know any better you'd think the sport was invented in 1897.

Thats what the VFL and now AFL want people to believe!

Their own book for the 100 years of VFL/AFL football was titled 100 years of Australian Football even though our code was 135 years old at the time and it had a small cursory mention of the VFA.

All of the current AFL Victorian teams and Sydney Swans and to a lesser extent Brisbane Lions Fitzroy started in the VFA which existed in its own right for 20 years before the VFL was formed.

Without the VFA there would be no AFL.Thats the fact weather the AFL like it or not!

 

[footyfan1978]

Many of the University players served in WW1 and they would have had difficulty fielding a team in 1915.

Of the 37 players used by university in 1914, five went to Melbourne and one went to South Melbourne.
In 1914 University had one team in the VFL and one team in the Metropolitan Junior Football Association. In 1915 both teams stopped playing. University A and B teams participated again for the first time in the Victorian Junior League (Precursor to the VFL Seconds) when it began in 1919. This new League consisted mainly of MJFA teams who had been aligned the VFL teams. In 1919 the MJFA, did not play.

Both University teams eventually moved back across to the Amateurs, which arose out of the ashes of the Metropolitan Association.

If you are interested have a look at http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article47-Class-and-Warfare-The-MAFA-and-the-VFL-Seconds

Thanks, love learning more details of this stuff of generations long gone.

 

[Derby103]

Many of the University players served in WW1 and they would have had difficulty fielding a team in 1915.

Of the 37 players used by university in 1914, five went to Melbourne and one went to South Melbourne.
In 1914 University had one team in the VFL and one team in the Metropolitan Junior Football Association. In 1915 both teams stopped playing. University A and B teams participated again for the first time in the Victorian Junior League (Precursor to the VFL Seconds) when it began in 1919. This new League consisted mainly of MJFA teams who had been aligned the VFL teams. In 1919 the MJFA, did not play.

Both University teams eventually moved back across to the Amateurs, which arose out of the ashes of the Metropolitan Association.

If you are interested have a look at http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/article47-Class-and-Warfare-The-MAFA-and-the-VFL-Seconds

Interestingly, University had attempted to merge with Melbourne a quarter of a century earlier, at the start of the 1889 season. The proposed amalgamation broke down when the Melbourne FC refused to change its name (to Melbourne-cum-University) or its colours to accommodate the requirements of University. The University club ended up disbanding instead of merging.

 

[Supermercado]

Speaking of random mergers, what about North and Coburg in 1965. Then the VFA basically sacked Coburg's committee and relaunched the club and everyone just carried on like nothing had ever happened. If Colin Carter was the North president he'd try to lay claim to Coburg's three pre-1965 flags.



Update: Actually never happened because...

 

[King Cold]

16 premierships.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

16 premierships.

19 Mens/Open Senior Premierships (Senior in relation to the competition being played in, VFL/AFL reserves were not a senior mens/open competition)

10 VFA/VFL - 1878, 1879, 1880, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, 2002, 2007, 2012
9 VFL/AFL - 1925, 1931, 1937, 1951, 1952, 1963, 2007, 2009, 2011

Port Adelaide have 37

36 SAFA/SAFL/SANFL - 1884, 1890, 1897, 1903 1906, 1910, 1913, 1914, 1921, 1928, 1936, 1937, 1939, 1951, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999
1 VFL/AFL - 2004

Richmond have 16

3 VFA/VFL - 1902, 1905, 2019
13 VFL/AFL - 1920, 1921, 1932, 1934, 1943, 1967, 1969, 1973, 1974, 1980, 2017, 2019, 2020

Collingwood also have 16

1 VFA/VFL - 1896
15 VFL/AFL - 1902, 1903, 1910, 1917, 1919, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930, 1935, 1936, 1953, 1958, 1990, 2010

St Kilda have 1
1 VFL/AFL - 1966

North Melbourne have 10

6 VFA/VFL - 1903, 1904, 1910, 1914, 1915, 1918
4 VFL/AFL - 1975, 1977, 1996, 1999

Brisbane Bears/Lions have 3

3 VFL/AFL - 2001,2002, 2003

South Melbourne/Sydney Swans have 15

5 VFA - 1881, 1885, 1888, 1889, 1890
5 VFL/AFL - 1909, 1918, 1933, 2005, 2012
5 FTARFL/CANFL/ACTAFL/CAFL Canberra First Grade/NEAFL Eastern Conference - 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2013

 

[nickcat0]

Clubs should be allowed to list whatever they want on their honours board, website, wikipedia page etc etc, so long as they label the Premierships clearly by category; and state which were AFL, which were VFL and which were VFA.

It's then up to the reader to decide how much value they place on each Flag.

 

[Ice-Wolf]

Clubs should be allowed to list whatever they want on their honours board, website, wikipedia page etc etc, so long as they label the Premierships clearly by category; and state which were AFL, which were VFL and which were VFA.

It's then up to the reader to decide how much value they place on each Flag.

Except VFL (I) & AFL are the same thing as are VFA & VFL (II)

 

[nickcat0]

Except VFL (I) & AFL are the same thing as are VFA & VFL (II)

As I said, label them clearly, and let the reader decide what value they place on them.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

As I said, label them clearly, and let the reader decide what value they place on them.

It's not about what subjective value someone places on them. It's about accurately recording the number of premierships won in each competition.

 

[weewilly]

The VFA was the ONLY League/Association from 1877 to 1896 so of course those Premierships/Champions of the colony should be recognised. The VFA also represented Victoria during that period!

In fact ALL the current Victorian AFL clubs and Sydney came from the VFA and without the VFA there would be no VFL/AFL as we know it = just the historical facts that the VFL and to a lesser extent the AFL have tried to supress because it did not suit their narrative that Australian Football started in 1897 when the VFL broke away from the VFA!

Its would like after a divorce the parents denied that the kids they had between them didn't exist!

We should celebrate the fact that the VFA was the foundation of our great game in Victoria and not denigrate and deny it

 

[sherb]

The club recognizes flags won across all leagues it has competed in.

Each individual league however recognizes premierships won in that league only.

So, in the case of Geelong, the club would recognize 16 flags - 7 VFA, 9 VFL/AFL.

However the AFL would only recognize the flags won in its competition - ie 9 (bearing in mind that the VFL/AFL is the one, continuous competition).

I'm not sure of the status of the VFA flags. It depends on whether the current VFL is regarded as an actual continuation of the VFA.

If so, the VFL would count the 7 flags. If not, there is no league in existence to recognize the flags.