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Caesar

Ex-Huckleberry
Mar 3, 2005
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Tombstone, AZ
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When Alfred Deakin first took the reigns of the federal government in 1903, it was an unsustainable mass of shifting instability - Free Traders, Liberal Protectionists and Labourites variously working together or at each other's throats, giving or withdrawing support for Prime Ministers depending on the issue.

Many of the problems he grappled with are remarkably similar to the ones we struggle with today. Australia had immense wealth from primary industry exports, but a vulnerable and uncompetitive manufacturing sector that left workers insecure and exposed. It was worried about its borders, and sought protection from a great power to stave off perceived threats from its neighbours to the north (first Russia then, after 1905, Japan).

Over the next eight years, until he formed Australia's first majority federal government, Deakin governed in different stints with the support of both socialist and anti-socialist forces. The compromises he struck in this time crafted what Paul Kelly called the settlement - broad principles that defined the country that most Australians wanted to live in, and ultimately solidified the two-party system along socialist and anti-socialist lines. He gave Australia stability, and laid a commonly-accepted framework that ensured both sides of politics largely worked to build on each other's achievements rather than simply tear them down.

With the problems we currently face, and the political instability we have dealt with across the spectrum for the last ten years, I wonder if the time has come for a new settlement. Hawke and Keating finally dismantled the Deakinite principles, but left us with the parties. Every election, every internal squabble, seems to show that the simple socialist/anti-socialist divide is no longer relevant or effective for cooperatively building the Australia that its people want to live in.

I sometimes wonder what partnerships across the spectrum Deakin would see in our current political landscape - and how he might use those to build a new set of common principles, and perhaps engineer a new fault-line in Australian politics. Some have cited issues like climate change and the environment, but this seems a bit overly optimistic to me - stable political divides have usually been wedded to peoples' more immediate economic interests. Protectionism seems to be making a comeback around the world, but that seems more backward- than forward-thinking.

I'd be interested in the thoughts of other would-be Deakins. What is the primary contest of ideas that you think will unite each side of politics, and help Australia to grow and improve for the next 50 or 100 years? Still socialism vs anti-socialism, or something else?

If you were to devise a new set of pillars for a new settlement, that would draw broad acceptance across both sides of politics and right across the population, what do you think they could be?
 
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With the problems we currently face, and the political instability we have dealt with across the spectrum for the last ten years, I wonder if the time has come for a new settlement. Hawke and Keating finally dismantled the Deakinite principles, but left us with the parties. Every election, every internal squabble, seems to show that the simple socialist/anti-socialist divide is no longer relevant or effective for cooperatively building the Australia that its people want to live in.

Hawke and Keating stripped the ALP of its core socialism, so how can it be said that the divide is no longer relevant if it isn't even in place?

Go back to the three party system that caused the original settlement, and then we can see what happens from there. We'll never find the terms for a new settlement, if there are any, in the current climate.
 
Hawke and Keating may have abandoned core socialist ideals, but the organised labour movement still controls the ALP so I don’t think you can say that the divide is no longer in place.

I don’t think you need to go back to the 1900s to look at alternative ways to slice up today’s political landscape that go beyond the rather outdated concept of those who support and oppose the labour movement.
 

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Hawke and Keating may have abandoned core socialist ideals, but the organised labour movement still controls the ALP so I don’t think you can say that the divide is no longer in place.

I don’t think you need to go back to the 1900s to look at alternative ways to slice up today’s political landscape that go beyond the rather outdated concept of those who support and oppose the labour movement.

Modern socialism is no longer linked with the labour movement in the same way it used to be. If anything, the latter has been subsumed as a subset of the former. Therefore, it would not be an attempt to go back in time, or whatever you want to cast it as.

If you want a new settlement, you need to create the conditions for it. You cannot create the conditions for it in the current climate. Therefore, you have to peel back the layers of the Cold War, of globalisation, of all these assumptions that the liberal consensus created, until you are back to square one, with each ideology clearly defined against each other. Then you can see where the biggest dividing line is, if there is one at all, and work from there.
 
I'd be interested in the thoughts of other would-be Deakins. What is the primary contest of ideas that you think will unite each side of politics, and help Australia to grow and improve for the next 50 or 100 years? Still socialism vs anti-socialism, or something else?
I don't know. I just want to point out the political divide has largely shifted to globalism vs nativism. More so in the US, but it still applies here. The thing is, I don't see any real room for each side of that divide to build on each other's achievements rather than tearing them down, as you say Deakin's parties did. Figures like Tony Abbott have turned politics into scorched earth warfare.

If you were to devise a new set of pillars for a new settlement, that would draw broad acceptance across both sides of politics and right across the population, what do you think they could be?
Again, I don't know how a gap between globalists and nativists could be bridged. Perhaps through investment in infrastructure and technology, if both sides have learned something from the NBN debacle.
 
I think the most crucial and hardest things to change are - taking the money out of politics somehow and returning accountability along with having a structure whereby policy is made using the greatest consensus of scientific knowledge and social/economic theory.

As an example the current Gov is so utterly in thrall to corporate interest and in particular the mining industry that along with its ideologic bent makes it impossible to create even a sound basic energy policy.

Or take social security where even the most corporate lobby groups argue that the dole needs to go up to support the economy but the Gov is completely captive to out of date neo-liberal dogma and is incapable of forming positions that go against that despite all evidence and opinion that say it will help.

I'm not saying Labor will do any better, I'm saying we need a completely different system where say to go in to politics you have to train and sit exams that weed out extreme ideologues and the highest scoring candidates are hired, not elected or something. And no parties. Just a collection of professionals who consider expert evidence and opinion and make decisions without fear or favour.

Nothing is incorruptible but we need to make it as difficult as possible and have genuine consequences for those caught being dishonest.
Its reached the point where politicians can literally do and say anything without ever being held to account.
 
I think the most crucial and hardest things to change are - taking the money out of politics somehow and returning accountability along with having a structure whereby policy is made using the greatest consensus of scientific knowledge and social/economic theory.

As an example the current Gov is so utterly in thrall to corporate interest and in particular the mining industry that along with its ideologic bent makes it impossible to create even a sound basic energy policy.

Or take social security where even the most corporate lobby groups argue that the dole needs to go up to support the economy but the Gov is completely captive to out of date neo-liberal dogma and is incapable of forming positions that go against that despite all evidence and opinion that say it will help.

I'm not saying Labor will do any better, I'm saying we need a completely different system where say to go in to politics you have to train and sit exams that weed out extreme ideologues and the highest scoring candidates are hired, not elected or something. And no parties. Just a collection of professionals who consider expert evidence and opinion and make decisions without fear or favour.

Nothing is incorruptible but we need to make it as difficult as possible and have genuine consequences for those caught being dishonest.
Its reached the point where politicians can literally do and say anything without ever being held to account.
There are thirty odd people in the Liberal Party room, all in thrall to private interests who are holding up anything remotely progressive in this country and they've been enabled by the Murdoch press and modern media cycle, imagine the headlines if a $600 billion hole had been found in policy on Labor's watch or they presided over Robodebt. I'd argue it's the Libs that are broken, not the system but it's easier for some to argue that it's politics rather than admit that their party has been overrun by low intellect rabble.
 
I'd argue it's the Libs that are broken, not the system but it's easier for some to argue that it's politics rather than admit that their party has been overrun by low intellect rabble.
The last ALP government were also pretty good at cutting their own throats, and the last election showed that neither major party is capable of articulating a vision of the future that resonates with Australians across the spectrum.

To me that seems like a systemic problem to which a mere change in government is unlikely to be a panacea.
 
I would be comfortable if we could separate the two parties - politically speaking - into 4; the Labor progressive, the Labor conservative, the Liberal progressive, the Liberal conservative. By doing this, a coalition can be formed between 2 or more to form government at any given time.

I'm sick of Labor politics being slighted by association with progressivism. You can be left wing and conservative, and there's a deep history of it in Australian contexts.
 
I would be comfortable if we could separate the two parties - politically speaking - into 4; the Labor progressive, the Labor conservative, the Liberal progressive, the Liberal conservative. By doing this, a coalition can be formed between 2 or more to form government at any given time.

I'm sick of Labor politics being slighted by association with progressivism. You can be left wing and conservative, and there's a deep history of it in Australian contexts.
The Greens have in essence captured a fair amount (but certainly not all) of the "Labor progressive" element. I imagine Bernardi's plan was similarly to capture some of the Liberal conservative element, but unfortunately for him, he wasn't very talented or charismatic. Pauline Hanson has the charisma but not the talent, and there's only so much of the Liberal conservative vote she can capture by being openly xenophobic and not intellectual or dignified.
 

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The Greens have in essence captured a fair amount (but certainly not all) of the "Labor progressive" element. I imagine Bernardi's plan was similarly to capture some of the Liberal conservative element, but unfortunately for him, he wasn't very talented or charismatic. Pauline Hanson has the charisma but not the talent, and there's only so much of the Liberal conservative vote she can capture by being openly xenophobic and not intellectual or dignified.
The problem is that the Greens are not a party that is ever going to achieve government in their own right. My change - from 2 to 4 - separates the dichotomy of modern politics; no longer can the media in this country smear the conservative (ie, non-progressive) left with progressivism.

That could be naive of me, certainly, but if none of those four alone can win government then it becomes a situation in which compromises need to be made. The way I reckon it's go would be the conservative right and left would align and become the default government of the country, and we'd all be better off; not, because progressivism is bad, but because being wedded to a singular economic/organisational philosophy is dumb.
 
The problem is that the Greens are not a party that is ever going to achieve government in their own right. My change - from 2 to 4 - separates the dichotomy of modern politics; no longer can the media in this country smear the conservative (ie, non-progressive) left with progressivism.

That could be naive of me, certainly, but if none of those four alone can win government then it becomes a situation in which compromises need to be made. The way I reckon it's go would be the conservative right and left would align and become the default government of the country, and we'd all be better off; not, because progressivism is bad, but because being wedded to a singular economic/organisational philosophy is dumb.
If you split them into 4, none of them will ever achieve government in their own right either.
 
If you split them into 4, none of them will ever achieve government in their own right either.
****ing great!

Compromise is how great government occurs. When you get people of diverse and divergent viewpoints being able to contribute to policy, that's how and when the magic happens.

Hawke and Keating were good leaders because their ideas were inspired by both sides; they were neoliberal leaders from the union movement. While I would dream of a utopia in which everyone wakes up tomorrow and immediately think that a huge turn to the left is a good thing, it isn't realistic, nor can left wing ideas solve every problem.

We need to bring the co-operation back to politics, and forcing uneasy coalitions in order to achieve power is the way to do it, IMO.
 
******* great!

Compromise is how great government occurs. When you get people of diverse and divergent viewpoints being able to contribute to policy, that's how and when the magic happens.

Hawke and Keating were good leaders because their ideas were inspired by both sides; they were neoliberal leaders from the union movement. While I would dream of a utopia in which everyone wakes up tomorrow and immediately think that a huge turn to the left is a good thing, it isn't realistic, nor can left wing ideas solve every problem.

We need to bring the co-operation back to politics, and forcing uneasy coalitions in order to achieve power is the way to do it, IMO.
Okay, and how do you propose to do that to both parties simultaneously? Coalition building works in a system with proportional representation but we don't have that in the lower house.
 
Okay, and how do you propose to do that to both parties simultaneously? Coalition building works in a system with proportional representation but we don't have that in the lower house.
I have no pathway for doing this. This was purely a hypothetical that would make sense of the current political divide (in my opinion). I see the issue here being left/right, but also socially progressive/conservative; left wing politics suffers for their association with progressivism, and right wing politics benefits from their association with conservatism.

4 parties would kill 2 birds with one stone. Brings out both diametries - and forces parties to discuss things in terms of what they see as important - and forces parties that disagree to work together and avoid the destructive negation based politics Abbott brought into vogue. It becomes important to avoiding burning bridges, as your enemy today might ensure that you can win government tomorrow, and there is more value in co-operation and collaboration than there is in negativity.

If it helps, I see the parties like this, with the capitalised being more important: LEFT WING-conservative, left wing-PROGRESSIVE, RIGHT WING-conservative, right wing-PROGRESSIVE.
 
Hawke and Keating stripped the ALP of its core socialism, so how can it be said that the divide is no longer relevant if it isn't even in place?

Go back to the three party system that caused the original settlement, and then we can see what happens from there. We'll never find the terms for a new settlement, if there are any, in the current climate.
throw gough whitlem in to that as well!
all three were globalists pandering up to the United Nations
 
I would be comfortable if we could separate the two parties - politically speaking - into 4; the Labor progressive, the Labor conservative, the Liberal progressive, the Liberal conservative. By doing this, a coalition can be formed between 2 or more to form government at any given time.

I'm sick of Labor politics being slighted by association with progressivism. You can be left wing and conservative, and there's a deep history of it in Australian contexts.
Labor has gone from a workers party to a full ****** globalist party with near zero australian interest
 
The Greens have in essence captured a fair amount (but certainly not all) of the "Labor progressive" element. I imagine Bernardi's plan was similarly to capture some of the Liberal conservative element, but unfortunately for him, he wasn't very talented or charismatic. Pauline Hanson has the charisma but not the talent, and there's only so much of the Liberal conservative vote she can capture by being openly xenophobic and not intellectual or dignified.
maybe the consertive fan base of the Libs, Hanson etc just dont accept the cool aid snake oil salesmen approach from the greens and the past 40 years of labor selling out the australian workers

or maybe many of them know the destruction and doom of what left wing politics bring to society
 

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