Top 100 players since 1980

[Blind Turn]

Hird... so high... please...

And this is your only critical observation?
I think you'll find many non-Essendon supporters would rate him similarly. He rates just ahead of Watson as Essendon's best in this period and IMO was just better than Voss in the perennial comparison between them and Buckley.

 

[JCHolmes]

And this is your only critical observation?
I think you'll find many non-Essendon supporters would rate him similarly. He rates just ahead of Watson as Essendon's best in this period and IMO was just better than Voss in the perennial comparison between them and Buckley.

Yep, exactly. Not the fastest or most skillful but saw things 'unfold' like OP said like few others. Speed and skill can be worked on but footy smarts esp Hirds cannot. I would rate him higher then Voss and Buckley. Really is a subjective thing but his impact on games can not be doubted. A couple of words I would use to describe his footy would be extremely smart and elegant. Could see what was going to happen before it happened and then have an impact in a way few others could because of his footy brains. Always made the right decision and stood up when needed. Won a B&F in his final year at age 32. You will not see someone do that again unless his name is Garry Ablett Jr.

 

[Smoooothy]

speaking from a crow point of view, i'd have darren jarman ahead of both andy mcleod and roo. his ability to do the unbeleivable was extraordinary. he only needed 5-10 mins to completely take the game away from anyone

also think ben hart was a bit unlucky to miss here. he wasn't a fashionable defender, but he was rarely beaten

 

[Blind Turn]

speaking from a crow point of view, i'd have darren jarman ahead of both andy mcleod and roo. his ability to do the unbeleivable was extraordinary. he only needed 5-10 mins to completely take the game away from anyone

also think ben hart was a bit unlucky to miss here. he wasn't a fashionable defender, but he was rarely beaten

Yeah, Jarman was exquisite but not as consistently damaging as the other two. Ben Hart was great and is listed amongst those who were unlucky to miss.

 

[Wild Bill]

This is very subjective and some great players will just miss out. This is based on what I can vividly remember. This makes it hard to know where to place players such as Peter Knights who I have vague memories of being sensational but was winding down and injured a lot when the 80s came around.
So here goes;


Feel free to pick away and make suggestions.

Barlett finished in 1983 and is in the top 20 yet Dench (1984), Grieg (1985) Knights (1985), Flower (1987) get marked down because you saw them at the end of their career??

The essendon bias drags this attempt down. Mark Harvey better than David Dench? Tim Watson in front of Blight and Williams and in the top 10? Fletcher at 33? Wanganeen better than SOS and Scarlett? Cox at 38 and Madden at 12 is too big a gap.

I would think Cat fans would rank Enright higher than Chappy. Chris Johnson at least deserves and apology and would make my list - especially as you have Mercuri on there.

 

[Blind Turn]

Barlett finished in 1983 and is in the top 20 yet Dench (1984), Grieg (1985) Knights (1985), Flower (1987) get marked down because you saw them at the end of their career??

The essendon bias drags this attempt down. Mark Harvey better than David Dench? Tim Watson in front of Blight and Williams and in the top 10? Fletcher at 33? Wanganeen better than SOS and Scarlett? Cox at 38 and Madden at 12 is too big a gap.

I would think Cat fans would rank Enright higher than Chappy. Chris Johnson at least deserves and apology and would make my list - especially as you have Mercuri on there.

Bill, you have some valid points mate but the only definite change to my list would be placing C Johnson in the 'apology' section.
You made me briefly consider the Wanganeen comparison with SOS and Scarlo but tbh I stand by my ranking here. Wanganeen was a sublime footballer and it was his Port career that gave it substance as a leader and adaptable veteran.

KB was a bit of an exception to the rule as far as end of careers go. Like Matthews and Blight I saw him do match-turning things every time I saw him (a killer GF helps his case).

I don't think many would argue that Dench and Knights and Greig were at their peak in the 70s while played more serviceable roles in the 80s. And I think Flower is ranked where he should be for his 80s career. I saw a whole career from Mark Harvey and saw him do the mercurial as a premiership forward and then proved to be one of the most courageous defenders I've seen.

Mercuri is one of the most talented players I've seen and there is no question of him deserving a spot.

I have already given my account of Fletch. I am quite open to the possibility of some form of bias appearing as I saw Bomber players week in week out in successful sides. It is what it is but I have tried to be as objective as I can. Watson was the stand-out mid of the entire 80s. Blighty did extraordinary things for half a decade. If I saw Blight's Brownlow year it might be different but I saw several years where Watson would've been a deserving medallist.

There are a lot of good players ranked between Madden and Cox. The only other pure ruck in the list is Rehn so relatively speaking Madden and Cox are pretty damn close.

And I have always admired Chappy as a player. Enright does things consummately well but Chappy is a match-winning big game player and I tend to rate them higher especially when they're tough too.

Thanks for responding Wildman. You should have a crack at it. How far back do you go?

 

[Blind Turn]

Oh and I hated Williams as a player so for me to place him as high as I have perhaps suggests I'm not swayed too much by bias. He was just so damn unstoppable and that pretty much sums up a superstar player. I think Sean Denham was just about the only player to come close and he had to wear a few sly jabs to the snoz to do it.

 

[Bobby_]

speaking from a crow point of view, i'd have darren jarman ahead of both andy mcleod and roo.

Really?
I thought McLeod had a slightly better career overall. Midfield or HBF, you could also throw him forward and he'd kick goals just like that.
In many ways, somewhat underrated today...not often mentioned or spoke about as often as some but was just as freakish and ridiculously skilled as what Darren was in my opinion.
Certainly the superior athlete, his run and carry and then ability to switch gears and take off to avoid a tackler was similar to Chris Judd when he first entered the league.

 

[Wild Bill]

Oh and I hated Williams as a player so for me to place him as high as I have perhaps suggests I'm not swayed too much by bias. He was just so damn unstoppable and that pretty much sums up a superstar player. I think Sean Denham was just about the only player to come close and he had to wear a few sly jabs to the snoz to do it.

I would do my list from the start of AFL 1990 - judging players when you are 10 is pointless.

Williams - 4 AA's, Norm Smith, 2 MVP's, 2 B&F's, 2 Brownlow's, AFL Team of the Century, Swans team of the Century and Blues team of the Century.

Watson - 4 B&F's, 1 MVP, Essendon team of the Century.

Williams won a Browlow and AA honours in the 80's. Not sure how you judge Watson as the best midfielder in the mid 80's.

 

[Blind Turn]

I would do my list from the start of AFL 1990 - judging players when you are 10 is pointless.

Williams - 4 AA's, Norm Smith, 2 MVP's, 2 B&F's, 2 Brownlow's, AFL Team of the Century, Swans team of the Century and Blues team of the Century.

Watson - 4 B&F's, 1 MVP, Essendon team of the Century.

Williams won a Browlow and AA honours in the 80's. Not sure how you judge Watson as the best midfielder in the mid 80's.

My comment wasn't 'mid' eighties it was 'mid'fielder of the entire eighties (including mid eighties). In the lead-up to the 89 finals series there was strong debate about who was the best player in the comp out of Ablett and Watson after Watson had a year in which he was Brownlow favourite. Ablett duly won that battle but it shows that even at the end of the 80s, and after 2 wrecked years due to injury (86/87), he was still widely considered the best mid going round. And yet his best years were 78-85 in which he was the inspiration within a great team.

I don't rate players because they are highly decorated. I rate them on my feel for the game. Otherwise Ablett himself would fall down the list significantly. Watson was a joy to watch and a match-winner and I felt he was a better player than Williams. Do you remember seeing him at his best? There is a great highlights vid on YouTube that shows how dynamic he was.

There are Nth fans out there who I wouldn't begrudge placing Schimma (for example) in their top 10 since 75 if they watched him weekly; he was such a good player and certain aspects of his game may elude casual football watchers. But there is less universal acknowledgement for this in that era than there is for Watson being so highly rated since 1980.

I find it strange that since his retirement opinions of Watson have waned and is often overlooked by people rating best-ofs, especially when I see Judd named as a Ruck Rover ahead of him.

Anyhoo, this is how I see it. If I had Mark Harvey top 10 then it would be much harder to justify.

 

[Bulldog1954]

My Top 100 since 1995

1. Wayne Carey (NM/Adel)
2. Gary Ablett Jnr. (Geel/GC)
3. Gary Ablett Snr. (Haw/Geel)
4. James Hird (Ess)
5. Jason Dunstall (Haw)
6. Tony Lockett (StK/Syd)
7. Stephen Silvagni (Carl)
8. Greg Williams (Geel/Syd/Carl)
9. Mark Ricciuto (Adel)
10. Michael Voss (Bris)
11. Gavin Wanganeen (Ess/PA)
12. Robert Harvey (StK)
13. Adam Goodes (Syd)
14. Chris Judd (WCE/Carl)
15. Simon Black (Bris)
16. Nathan Buckley (Bris/Coll)
17. Anthony Koutofides (Carl)
18. Chris Grant (WB)
19. Tony Modra (Adel/Frem)
20. Matthew Lloyd (Ess)
21. Stephen Kernahan (Carl)
22. Paul Kelly (Syd)
23. Darren Jarman (Adel/Haw)
24. Scott Pendlebury (Coll)
25. Joel Selwood (Geel)
26. Glenn Jackovich (WCE)
27. Matthew Richardson (Rich)
28. Peter Matera (WCE)
29. Nick Riewoldt (StK)
30. Dean Cox (WCE)
31. Lance Franklin (Haw)
32. Brendan Fevola (Carl)
33. Matthew Scarlett (Geel)
34. Steve Johnson (Geel)
35. Warren Tredrea (PA)
36. Matthew Pavlich (Frem)
37. Andrew McLeod (Adel)
38. Nigel Lappin (Bris)
39. Darren Glass (WC)
40. Jonathan Brown (Bris)
41. Ben Cousins (WCE/Rich)
42. Shane Crawford (Haw)
43. Jason Akermanis (Bris/WB)
44. Jimmy Bartel (Geel)
45. Luke Hodge (Haw)
46. Saverio Rocca (Coll/NM)
47. Garry Lyon (Melb)
48. Corey McKernan (NM/Carl)
49. Craig Bradley (Carl)
50. Brent Harvey (NM)
51. Scott West (WB)
52. Dustin Fletcher (Ess)
53. Jude Bolton (Syd)
54. Sam Mitchell (Haw)
55. Lenny Hayes (StK)
56. Justin Leppitsch (Bris)
57. Phil Matera (WCE)
58. Glenn Archer (NM)
59. Ryan O'Keefe (Syd)
60. Michael O'Loughlin (Syd)
61. Daniel Bradshaw (Bris/Syd)
62. Josh Kennedy (Haw/Syd)
63. Stuart Maxfield (Rich/Syd)
64. Alastair Lynch (Fitz/Bris)
65. Barry Hall (StK/Syd/WB)
66. Patrick Dangerfield (Adel)
67. Daniel Kerr (WC)
68. Mark Mercuri (Ess)
69. Jim Stynes (Melb)
70. Nathan Brown (WB/Rich)
71. David Neitz (Melb)
72. John Longmire (NM)
73. Scott Lucas (Ess)
74. Mal Michael (Coll/Bris/Ess)
75. David Schwarz (Melb)
76. Garry Hocking (Geel)
77. Dane Swan (Coll)
78. Corey Enright (Geel)
79. Anthony Stevens (NM)
80. Paul Chapman (Geel)
81. Brett Ratten (Carl)
82. Simon Goodwin (Adel)
83. Billy Brownless (Geel)
84. Matthew Knights (Rich)
85. Peter Bell (Frem/NM)
86. Brad Johnson (WB)
87. Kieren Jack (Syd)
88. Tom Hawkins (Geel)
89. Fraser Gerhig (StK)
90. Taylor Walker (Adel)
91. Michael Long (Ess)
92. Jarryd Roughead (Haw)
93. Trent Cotchin (Rich)
94. Jarrad McVeigh (Syd)
95. Nicky Winmar (StK/WB)
96. Marc Murphy (Carl)
97. Ben Hart (Adel)
98. Harry Taylor (Geel)
99. Chris Johnson (Bris)
100. Winston Abraham (Frem/NM)

I know I am biased but it shocks me to see Brad Johnson who was an All Australian Captain ranked at 86, particularly with Phil Matera at 57. What was it that made Phil Matera a better footballer then Johnson?

 

[Blind Turn]

I know I am biased but it shocks me to see Brad Johnson who was an All Australian Captain ranked at 86, particularly with Phil Matera at 57. What was it that made Phil Matera a better footballer then Johnson?

That's OK, apparently Winnie Abraham is better than Jobe Watson... and about 200 other players I could mention off the top of my head. It is just an opinion afterall.

 

[SouthSwans]

That's OK, apparently Winnie Abraham is better than Jobe Watson... and about 200 other players I could mention off the top of my head. It is just an opinion afterall.

[youtube]Z7LshEQvcWw[/youtube]
Aerial specialist, ground level specialist, supreme right foot, supreme left foot, whether contested or in open space Winnie was a freakshow. If he had played another 100 games he'd be pushing the top 10.

 

[Bobby_]

Abraham was incredibly gifted but hardly dominant. His best was few and far between, most goals any season was 40 over 25 games, doubt another 100 would have buffered amongst the top 10 players in the game.
Went missing in the 'big' games on far too many occasions.

 

[Blind Turn]

[youtube]Z7LshEQvcWw[/youtube]
Aerial specialist, ground level specialist, supreme right foot, supreme left foot, whether contested or in open space Winnie was a freakshow. If he had played another 100 games he'd be pushing the top 10.

Abraham would rate high on pure talent, sure. So would Damien Cupido, and Allen Jakovich, Andrew Lovett, Des Headland, Jared Brennan, Bruce Lindner, Dean Rioli, Adam Heuskes, Leon Davis, Ryan Houlihan etc. they'd all be right up there for pure talent but there is no real substance to their careers that would elevate them to the top echelon. I mean you select a pure talent like Taylor Walker but the actual substance of his career still falls well short of somebody like Lewis Roberts-Thomson who is unfashionable yet has performed pivotal jobs in premiership teams on the biggest stage.

 

[SouthSwans]

Abraham would rate high on pure talent, sure. So would Damien Cupido, and Allen Jakovich, Andrew Lovett, Des Headland, Jared Brennan, Bruce Lindner, Dean Rioli, Adam Heuskes, Leon Davis, Ryan Houlihan etc. they'd all be right up there for pure talent but there is no real substance to their careers that would elevate them to the top echelon. I mean you select a pure talent like Taylor Walker but the actual substance of his career still falls well short of somebody like Lewis Roberts-Thomson who is unfashionable yet has performed pivotal jobs in premiership teams on the biggest stage.

Winnie had more talent than all of those blokes put together. And his output in the three years prior to doing his knee was as good as anyone ever. Quality > quantity.
And whilst I agree with your sentiments in regards to players such as LRT, there's little-to-no space for those guys to find a spot on the list when they are competing with the plethora of mega-talented names mentioned above. LRT would get in my top 100 roleplayers list (Prestigiacomo #1)

 

[Blind Turn]

Winnie had more talent than all of those blokes put together. And his output in the three years prior to doing his knee was as good as anyone ever. Quality > quantity.
And whilst I agree with your sentiments in regards to players such as LRT, there's little-to-no space for those guys to find a spot on the list when they are competing with the plethora of mega-talented names mentioned above. LRT would get in my top 100 roleplayers list (Prestigiacomo #1)

You seriously rate him a better player than Watson? Even Murphy above Watson is bewildering. Im sorry but Winnie just isn't close for mine. Nevertheless, it's interesting to see a left-field player given kudos in these threads.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Again, call me biased, but I don't see how you can compare Scott West (68) vs Jobe Watson (51)
Scott West - 7 x B&F, 5 x All-Australians, 5x Top 5 brownlow with two runners-up
Jobe Watson: 3 x B&F, 2 x All-Australian, 1 Brownlow win, with 1x Top 5.

Very Similar Brownlow votes per game, Watson has about 0.02 more votes a game, however West has done that over 324 games, whilst Watson has played 173, West did it over a longer period of time.

The only argument I could make in Watson's favour is that his best season (2012) was better than any of West's seasons, however even that is doubtful as West's 2000 was just as good. And it's not a selection criteria that you've used well, as West playing 324 games in itself is a big achievement.

If Watson gives the same output for another 100-150 games then fair enough have him ahead, but you can only judge them on what they've done so far and West is well ahead.

 

[Blind Turn]

Again, call me biased, but I don't see how you can compare Scott West (68) vs Jobe Watson (51)
Scott West - 7 x B&F, 5 x All-Australians, 5x Top 5 brownlow with two runners-up
Jobe Watson: 3 x B&F, 2 x All-Australian, 1 Brownlow win, with 1x Top 5.

Very Similar Brownlow votes per game, Watson has about 0.02 more votes a game, however West has done that over 324 games, whilst Watson has played 173, West did it over a longer period of time.

The only argument I could make in Watson's favour is that his best season (2012) was better than any of West's seasons, however even that is doubtful as West's 2000 was just as good. And it's not a selection criteria that you've used well, as West playing 324 games in itself is a big achievement.

If Watson gives the same output for another 100-150 games then fair enough have him ahead, but you can only judge them on what they've done so far and West is well ahead.

Yep, sure I can perfectly understand others rating West higher but there are many who would rate him lower too. I probably explained it in my initial post best. Despite his consistent output he just lacked that something special. If I were to pick a team I'd choose Jobe before Westy every time. Jobe has done enough in his last 6 seasons to suggest he is now in the best few mids in the comp. West was never at that level. He was a tier below. But for me he rates above other great mids on this list due to his sheer accumulative powers. An example is Healy who was far more talented but hardly inspired the teams he played for. Jobe, however is an inspirational type player and also has the consistent impact of West. Again, listing awards and achievements are not the main focus in my ratings. Kudos to West for his many B&Fs and his adoration from the umps but for me he was a 'beige' type of player, albeit an incredibly effective beige.

 

[willba_victory]

Again, call me biased, but I don't see how you can compare Scott West (68) vs Jobe Watson (51)
Scott West - 7 x B&F, 5 x All-Australians, 5x Top 5 brownlow with two runners-up
Jobe Watson: 3 x B&F, 2 x All-Australian, 1 Brownlow win, with 1x Top 5.

Very Similar Brownlow votes per game, Watson has about 0.02 more votes a game, however West has done that over 324 games, whilst Watson has played 173, West did it over a longer period of time.

The only argument I could make in Watson's favour is that his best season (2012) was better than any of West's seasons, however even that is doubtful as West's 2000 was just as good. And it's not a selection criteria that you've used well, as West playing 324 games in itself is a big achievement.

If Watson gives the same output for another 100-150 games then fair enough have him ahead, but you can only judge them on what they've done so far and West is well ahead.

Squelchy, how well do you remember that season?

 

[Big Fresh]

I would do my list from the start of AFL 1990 - judging players when you are 10 is pointless.

Williams - 4 AA's, Norm Smith, 2 MVP's, 2 B&F's, 2 Brownlow's, AFL Team of the Century, Swans team of the Century and Blues team of the Century.

Watson - 4 B&F's, 1 MVP, Essendon team of the Century.

Williams won a Browlow and AA honours in the 80's. Not sure how you judge Watson as the best midfielder in the mid 80's.

When Leigh Matthews made his best team since 1969 he selected Tim Watson as ruck rover and put Williams on the interchange. This obviously doesn't mean that Watson was better - Matthews is fallible and his opinion isn't final (after all, he didn't find a place for Hird in the starting 18) - but apparently it's not so outrageous to suggest Watson was better when someone with so much credibility and authority on the topic of footballers from around that time agrees.

 

[Wild Bill]

When Leigh Matthews made his best team since 1969 he selected Tim Watson as ruck rover and put Williams on the interchange. This obviously doesn't mean that Watson was better - Matthews is fallible and his opinion isn't final (after all, he didn't find a place for Hird in the starting 18) - but apparently it's not so outrageous to suggest Watson was better when someone with so much credibility and authority on the topic of footballers from around that time agrees.

So he is correct to put Watson on the ground in front of Williams but wrong putting Judd, Voss, Buckley in front of Hird?

Well at least he got Carey at 1 correct.

 

[Big Fresh]

So he is correct to put Watson on the ground in front of Williams but wrong putting Judd, Voss, Buckley in front of Hird?

Well at least he got Carey at 1 correct.

I can't say whether he was correct about Watson and Williams - I didn't see them play. But apparently it's not out of the question to perceive Watson as a better player than Williams.

And yeah he is wrong putting Judd on the forward flank ahead of Hird.

 

[Wild Bill]

I can't say whether he was correct about Watson and Williams - I didn't see them play. But apparently it's not out of the question to perceive Watson as a better player than Williams.

And yeah he is wrong putting Judd on the forward flank ahead of Hird.

Maybe put a poll up?? Although - William's did recently defeat hird easily I think the same would happen with watson.

 

[Big Fresh]

Maybe put a poll up?? Although - William's did recently defeat hird easily I think the same would happen with watson.

Yeah, Williams probably would win a poll, and there's every chance that that's justified. Again, I have no idea who was better. Just offering Lethal's input.