Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[TheBigHorne]

Have their been any studies into how/why a person comes to identify themselves as trans? Given the strong link between being trans and mental illness, should we look into preventative measures?

Those preventative measures exist and they suck because they cause more harm than good.


Also a lot of trans and mental illness correlation can be blamed on transphobia.

 

[BattlerGM]

What are the preventative measures?

No doubt transphobia exacerbates trans mental illness. Not sure how much of trans suffering can be chalked up to transphobia, though.

 

[TheBigHorne]

What are the preventative measures?

No doubt transphobia exacerbates trans mental illness. Not sure how much of trans suffering can be chalked up to transphobia, though.

Mainly conversion therapy or brute force, which would be outright discrimination because it operates under the assumption that ALL trans people are diseased that need to be cured of.

Just by doing a quick google search on conversion therapy you'll find a bunch of sources saying that it sucks and should never be done.

What we do know is that trans suicide rates drop from 57% to 4% just by having an accepting family alone. So we can assume that other mental stuff drops significantly as well.

Trans affirming care, time and time again has been proven the way to go.

 

[BattlerGM]

That all sounds like attempts at treatment. I'm talking specifically about what takes place beforehand.

 

[TheBigHorne]

That all sounds like attempts at treatment. I'm talking specifically about what takes place beforehand.

It seems you really want to take a certain side, I'm not going to lie. How do we engage in preventative measures? Forcefully abort male fetuses that are developing female brains? Not sure how else you engage in preventative measures without some kind of draconian iron fist.

 

[BattlerGM]

I won't lie either, I am on the 'other side' but I'm far more open to change that most and will freely admit (again) that I could be wrong on all of this.

I think we have a misunderstanding. What I'm trying to work out is what is it that prompts a child to consider themselves trans?

 

[TheBigHorne]

I won't lie either, I am on the 'other side' but I'm far more open to change that most and will freely admit (again) that I could be wrong on all of this.

I think we have a misunderstanding. What I'm trying to work out is what is it that prompts a child to consider themselves trans?

Idk lol, obviously brain structure is one of them but a lot of the time it's something they just have. As a trans person I hated my genitals from a very young age and so have many other trans people. The reality of the situation is we're seeing a lot more trans people because it's been a lot more normalised in our society, similar to left handers.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

If thats the case why do we need gender at all? It seems like its an outdated set of grouped behaviours that in many ways is a bit demeaning to both males and females in a progressive modern society and can do actual harm by implying males and females that they should act a certain way. Shouldnt we be encouraging males and females that they can behave however they want to behave and the best way to do that is to send the grouped behaviours known as man and woman to historys dustbin rather then giving it seperate labels and reinforcing those behaviours?

I don't rightly know why we need 'gender' at all. I know that there's big money in the fashion and cosmetic industries (for example) in selling different products and commodities based solely on gender. Billion-dollar industries, really, who see the financial need to differentiate.

Jeans and a shirt, for example, are gender-neutral apart from one little difference. Male and female hips are different and so the cut of jean is based on gender

The pharmaceutical industry needs to differentiate their output of course, but that is based on biological medical needs rather than pushing product along arbitrary gender lines.

But in a societal way? What's the real benefit of gender separation? Again, I don't rightly know.

 

[Bloods86]

That all sounds like attempts at treatment. I'm talking specifically about what takes place beforehand.

Why do we need to prevent what happens beforehand? You would have to show that being trans in isolation is the cause of mental illness, self harm, suicidal ideation, or suicide.

It's not the most well researched area, but what we do know is that the following are significant factors in the above issues, and that trans people are subjected to increased rates of these, not because they are trans, but because of people's reactions to trans people:

• discrimination and violence
• unemployment rates
• inability to access healthcare (incl hormone treatments)

And we know that increased societal acceptance, particularly among family and friends, but also in employment, healthcare etc corresponds with significant reductions in the above problems.

The indications are that while there's always room to analyse and improve assessments for treatment and transitional procedures, that the overwhelming majority of those who are able to access hormone treatments for example, or undergo transition surgeries, have positive outcomes (regret around surgeries is about 1%, not almost universal as say Jordan Peterson wants you to believe), and this corresponds to significant reductions in the above problems. And when regret occurs, significant factors are problems with the surgery itself (which happens for all medical procedures) and lack of support/acceptance from others.

Basically, what has happened, based on available evidence:

• society has treated a group like crap because of a perception that something is wrong with them
• that group suffers worse outcomes as a result
• some sections of society see the worse outcomes as evidence that something is wrong with the group
• those sections of society continue to treat the group like crap, while pretending to care about their outcomes (some of the time)

Rinse. Repeat.

 

[Kwality]

'Australia’s most successful male Olympian Ian Thorpe has hit back at a decision by international swimming’s governing body Fina to ban transgender women athletes from elite female competitions.'

‘They’ve actually got it wrong’: Ian Thorpe questions Fina’s trans swimming ban

Olympic legend Ian Thorpe has spoken out against international swimming’s ban on transgender athletes in female events, saying he is ‘for equality in sport’

www.theguardian.com

“This is a very complicated issue, I can’t deny that, and I am personally opposed to the position Fina has taken on this,” he said. “I am for fairness in sport, but I’m also for equality in sport. And in this instance, they’ve actually got it wrong.”

 

[BattlerGM]

Why do we need to prevent what happens beforehand? You would have to show that being trans in isolation is the cause of mental illness, self harm, suicidal ideation, or suicide.

It's not the most well researched area, but what we do know is that the following are significant factors in the above issues, and that trans people are subjected to increased rates of these, not because they are trans, but because of people's reactions to trans people:

• discrimination and violence
• unemployment rates
• inability to access healthcare (incl hormone treatments)

And we know that increased societal acceptance, particularly among family and friends, but also in employment, healthcare etc corresponds with significant reductions in the above problems.

The indications are that while there's always room to analyse and improve assessments for treatment and transitional procedures, that the overwhelming majority of those who are able to access hormone treatments for example, or undergo transition surgeries, have positive outcomes (regret around surgeries is about 1%, not almost universal as say Jordan Peterson wants you to believe), and this corresponds to significant reductions in the above problems. And when regret occurs, significant factors are problems with the surgery itself (which happens for all medical procedures) and lack of support/acceptance from others.

Basically, what has happened, based on available evidence:

• society has treated a group like crap because of a perception that something is wrong with them
• that group suffers worse outcomes as a result
• some sections of society see the worse outcomes as evidence that something is wrong with the group
• those sections of society continue to treat the group like crap, while pretending to care about their outcomes (some of the time)

Rinse. Repeat.

Is this to suggest that most/all of the additional mental illness trans people suffer compared to non trans mental illness is because of poor treatment from society?

 

[BattlerGM]

Actually, while I'm at it, what can I do to ease trans suffering? I believe every human deserves good faith and courtesy as a default, I'm big on people's rights and am something of a libertarian (transition away!). If I saw a trans person being bullied I'd intervene. Anything else?

 

[Bloods86]

Is this to suggest that most/all of the additional mental illness trans people suffer compared to non trans mental illness is because of poor treatment from society?

I think there's some strong indications from the data that it's mostly poor treatment, but some of it could also just be living in a world where you don't really fit into the main categories, not necessarily that people discriminate or target you directly. This seems to be borne out by the positive outcomes associated with social acceptance, treatments and transition surgery.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Actually, while I'm at it, what can I do to ease trans suffering? I believe every human deserves good faith and courtesy as a default, I'm big on people's rights and am something of a libertarian (transition away!). If I saw a trans person being bullied I'd intervene. Anything else?

The bolded is key. See everyone as human and treat everyone you meet with that same courtesy and dignity. If you're worried about pronouns and whatnot just refer to each by the name they introduce themselves as.

That's all they want and it's all anyone wants. To be comfortable in the skin they're in and to feel included in society.

It;s hard at first, adjusting to this. Especially when you may not encounter transgender people at all in your everyday life. Just keep to the basics, keep to the bolded, and it will have a positive knock-on effect.

 

[ShanDog]

How have those findings been misrepresented?

 

[faible]

How have those findings been misrepresented?

I'm sure she'll reply herself, but I took this bit to be what she was talking about;

However, when VO2 peak is corrected for weight

VO2 is usually reported as L/min/kg whilst this study reported L/min which doesn't correct for mass, where mass is a very relevant component of the assessment (e.g. Rowers have higher total VO2 consumption than cyclists, but cyclists have significantly higher VO2 L/min/kg because they're usually much lighter).

Running my eye very quickly over the supplementary table that lists weights;

TW were between 56.8kg and 99.5kg
CW were between 51.8kg and 81.6kg
CM were between 69.1kg and 94.4kg

Not correcting for mass when reporting the figures leads to a misleading conclusion that TW sit between CW and CM for VO2 consumption, when in reality as a measure of aerobic capacity they're pretty much in-line with CW once you correct for mass.

 

[ShanDog]

I'm sure she'll reply herself, but I took this bit to be what she was talking about;



VO2 is usually reported as L/min/kg whilst this study reported L/min which doesn't correct for mass, where mass is a very relevant component of the assessment (e.g. Rowers have higher total VO2 consumption than cyclists, but cyclists have significantly higher VO2 L/min/kg because they're usually much lighter).

Running my eye very quickly over the supplementary table that lists weights;

TW were between 56.8kg and 99.5kg
CW were between 51.8kg and 81.6kg
CM were between 69.1kg and 94.4kg

Not correcting for mass when reporting the figures leads to a misleading conclusion that TW sit between CW and CM for VO2 consumption, when in reality as a measure of aerobic capacity they're pretty much in-line with CW once you correct for mass.

Interesting, but how significant is that when we're talking about individuals in relation to sport categories?

 

[faible]

Interesting, but how significant is that when we're talking about individuals in relation to sport categories?

Very, depending on the sport Vo2 Max (L/min/kg) is highly correlated with aerobic capacity. It's not the sole indication, but it's probably the single biggest predictor - especially in low-technique sports.

Something like cycling uphill where it's very low on technical demands but very high on aerobic demand would be something you'd predict pretty well if the only thing you knew about athletes competing was the VO2 Max figure.

 

[ShanDog]

Very, depending on the sport Vo2 Max (L/min/kg) is highly correlated with aerobic capacity. It's not the sole indication, but it's probably the single biggest predictor - especially in low-technique sports.

Something like cycling uphill where it's very low on technical demands but very high on aerobic demand would be something you'd predict pretty well if the only thing you knew about athletes competing was the VO2 Max figure.

Yeah I understand that, but it's not what I meant by the question.

Maybe I don't quite understand, but if absolute VO2 levels in trans women higher than cis women, is that not the key takeaway in relation to sex-segregation in sport? Correcting for mass of the person changes the relative VO2 max levels but individuals participate in sport, not corrected statistics.

 

[faible]

Yeah I understand that, but it's not what I meant by the question.

Maybe I don't quite understand, but if absolute VO2 levels in trans women higher than cis women, is that not the key takeaway in relation to sex-segregation in sport? Correcting for mass of the person changes the relative VO2 max levels but individuals participate in sport, not corrected statistics.

Corrected by weight it would suggest to me that for aerobic sports like running, cycling or cross-country skiing TW and CW should perform similarly given they're having the haul that weight around.

Something like rowing or swimming might favour the higher absolute VO2 figures because moving the mass isn't as big a deal and there's a higher strength component so having more mass but a similar aerobic capacity could be important though I'd have to actually go and look that up.

Absolute VO2 Max is rarely used as a metric in sport (that I've seen at least) because moving your mass is such a big part of a lot of aerobic sports that the mass adjusted figure is more relevant.

So if we're using this study as a basis to segregate or not segregate, my takeaway would be that for aerobic weight-bearing sports the study supports CW and TW (at least from this sample group) participating in the same category given that their expected aerobic performance would be pretty similar as predicted by VO2 Max.

 

[Engimal v3]

I won't lie either, I am on the 'other side' but I'm far more open to change that most and will freely admit (again) that I could be wrong on all of this.

I think we have a misunderstanding. What I'm trying to work out is what is it that prompts a child to consider themselves trans?

I think it's a naturally occurring phenomenon. The issue is that the West's view on gender is very simplistic, compared to some of our Polynesian neighbours (e.g. Fa afafine)

 

[ShanDog]

Corrected by weight it would suggest to me that for aerobic sports like running, cycling or cross-country skiing TW and CW should perform similarly given they're having the haul that weight around.

Something like rowing or swimming might favour the higher absolute VO2 figures because moving the mass isn't as big a deal and there's a higher strength component so having more mass but a similar aerobic capacity could be important though I'd have to actually go and look that up.

Absolute VO2 Max is rarely used as a metric in sport (that I've seen at least) because moving your mass is such a big part of a lot of aerobic sports that the mass adjusted figure is more relevant.

So if we're using this study as a basis to segregate or not segregate, my takeaway would be that for aerobic weight-bearing sports the study supports CW and TW (at least from this sample group) participating in the same category given that their expected aerobic performance would be pretty similar as predicted by VO2 Max.

VO2 is measured using physical activity that requires the person to haul their body mass. When the study says it's correcting for body mass, I don't think that means what you're referring to here. Higher VO2 means better aerobic fitness for that individual, body mass inclusive, correct? Therefore the 'correction for mass' in the study is a statistical correction to compare the different data sets.

The equivalent would be measuring the absolute strength of a group of men and women, and results showing that the men are 20% stronger. But correcting for mass, the women are 15% lighter, so their relative strength difference by mass is less than 20%. Does that make sense?

 

[faible]

Higher VO2 means better aerobic fitness for that individual, body mass inclusive, correct?

Not necessarily, if you have a marginally higher absolute VO2 Max figure than I do, but also weigh 20kg more, then our mass is an important figure to correct for, thus why they usually refer to VO2 Max by L/min/kg instead of just L/min. Just looking at the absolute total gives an incomplete picture, especially when it's being used to assess aerobic performance in certain sports like running, cycling or XC skiing.

Therefore the 'correction for mass' in the study is a statistical correction to compare the different data sets.

Well it's a correction to compare different people in reality, yes. A single absolute data point versus another single absolute data point doesn't give us a meaningful indication of which has greater aerobic fitness, just which body can consume more oxygen which is one component of aerobic fitness.

But correcting for mass, the women are 15% lighter, so their relative strength difference by mass is less than 20%. Does that make sense?

This is exactly why different weight classes exist for strength sports like weightlifting and powerlifting isn't it?

 

[ShanDog]

Not necessarily, if you have a marginally higher absolute VO2 Max figure than I do, but also weigh 20kg more, then our mass is an important figure to correct for, thus why they usually refer to VO2 Max by L/min/kg instead of just L/min. Just looking at the absolute total gives an incomplete picture, especially when it's being used to assess aerobic performance in certain sports like running, cycling or XC skiing.

Ok so VO2 max is calculated with your body mass but you can't directly compare people with different mass using that figure. Makes sense.

This is exactly why different weight classes exist for strength sports like weightlifting and powerlifting isn't it?

Yes, exactly.

 

[faible]

Ok so VO2 max is calculated with your body mass but you can't directly compare people with different mass using that figure. Makes sense.

It's measured as an absolute figure, then usually reported as L/min/kg since the /kg is extremely important for understanding aerobic fitness. Mass can be due to skeletal mass, fat mass, or muscle mass, all of which have implications for oxygen consumption as compared to someone else with similar mass.

Simply taking the absolute figure doesn't allow for comparison between anyone else (or even yourself, if your body weight changes substantially e.g. when elite rowers become elite cyclists which has happened a few times) since mass is important both because more mass (especially functional muscle mass) means more oxygen consumed (e.g. rowers are big and consume a lot) but also more mass carried (rowers are heavy and run relatively slow despite being able to consume a lot of oxygen).

So when we're assessing aerobic fitness for say running or cycling, the L/min/kg is much more important to know than the L/min figure, and is overwhelmingly the figure reported and used in any articles I've ever read discussing aerobic capacity, including aerobic capacity by gender.

Cisgender women tend to have lower L/min figures and L/min/kg figures (than cisgender men) because they tend to both have less mass and less functional mass.

In this articles sample, the transgender women have mass somewhere between cisgender women and cisgender men, and absolute VO2 figures in the same region, but their L/min/kg figure is in-line with (and slightly lower than) cisgender women.

The article kirsti linked left out that part of the conclusion which IMO when we're discussing sports performance, is an extremely important (if not the most important) part of the conclusion and should have been reported. Reporting only the absolute figures would potentially lead to the misleading conclusion that the TW would have higher aerobic performance than the CW, but when we correct for bodyweight it's unlikely to play out that way in practice (rowing might differ here, as might swimming).