Umpiring - can anything be done ?

[Pessimistic]

(rider: nothing to do with the tigers playing better than us)

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on whether clarkos No 17 comment has made things better or worse for us.

last quarter did it for me - well beatena and still the maggots ajudicated by jumper.

Twice buddy had 3 hanging onto him and no ball in his hands - nothing - if he had the ball it would be HTB for sure. Buddy is the most penailsed player in the AFL and by no means is he a dirty player.
Its a joke to say his suspension would cost him a brownlow cos thers no way thee jokers would vote for him.

One other - one of our players - changa I think (another player who is fair game for any kind of treatment with no recourse) took a mark and the defender held onto him so long another of our players had time to run and take a handpass - then runs on to open goal and the umpire brings him back for a kick - its bullshit - geelong must get a third of their goals that way.. It should have been a 50 or advantage under current interpretations.

We would need to be at leasr 10% better than our opponent to win a final let alone a flag. we are not 10% better at the moment - we have no chance.

Question is csn we do somenting - can we mount a campaing on the net or call up media outlets (not after a game it looka like sour grapes) to ask them to analysie in the cold light of day how buddy gets treated among other things.

Geelong Doggies and North are very good at getting the umps onside and we are not. i'm not sure I would want to celebrate a brownlow being given to our player if he was the best stager since Wanganeen

 

[Scribe]

(rider: nothing to do with the tigers playing better than us)

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on whether clarkos No 17 comment has made things better or worse for us.

last quarter did it for me - well beatena and still the maggots ajudicated by jumper.

Twice buddy had 3 hanging onto him and no ball in his hands - nothing - if he had the ball it would be HTB for sure. Buddy is the most penailsed player in the AFL and by no means is he a dirty player.
Its a joke to say his suspension would cost him a brownlow cos thers no way thee jokers would vote for him.

One other - one of our players - changa I think (another player who is fair game for any kind of treatment with no recourse) took a mark and the defender held onto him so long another of our players had time to run and take a handpass - then runs on to open goal and the umpire brings him back for a kick - its bullshit - geelong must get a third of their goals that way.. It should have been a 50 or advantage under current interpretations.

We would need to be at leasr 10% better than our opponent to win a final let alone a flag. we are not 10% better at the moment - we have no chance.

Question is csn we do somenting - can we mount a campaing on the net or call up media outlets (not after a game it looka like sour grapes) to ask them to analysie in the cold light of day how buddy gets treated among other things.

Geelong Doggies and North are very good at getting the umps onside and we are not. i'm not sure I would want to celebrate a brownlow being given to our player if he was the best stager since Wanganeen

No.

The only team I've seen get a clearly better run with the umps is Geelong.
It's not an anti-Hawthorn thing, its a pro-Geelong thing.

Mounting a campaign will simply serve to make Hawk fans look like even bigger whingers, and will have the opposite effect to that you are seeking to achieve.

Move on and get over it.

 

[market]

No.

The only team I've seen get a clearly better run with the umps is Geelong.
It's not an anti-Hawthorn thing, its a pro-Geelong thing.

Mounting a campaign will simply serve to make Hawk fans look like even bigger whingers, and will have the opposite effect to that you are seeking to achieve.

Move on and get over it.

Agreed.

At this point, we have to accept that we will get a tough run with the umpires and deal with it by winning.

We do play in a fashion that does not endear us to the umpires (which I couldn't care less about, as I like the style we play with).

I believe Hawks fans will have to go into games accepting that the umpiring is highly unlikely to work for the Hawks and if by some chance, we get a good run....Hey - its bonus!

 

[Stratton24]

Something is seriously messed up. I can cop umpiring mistakes but they are just killing us with 2 sets of rules each and every week.

Simple things like v Brisbane when Lewis marked a 25 metre pass and it was called not 15 and then he was pinged. Or when Morton gather a ball that was clearly over the boundary line last week and a goal resulted, I could cope if the boundary umpire was out of position but he was right there. Every week we just cop the rough end of the stick.

Maybe we need to clap and cheer the umpires and be nice and polite rather than abuse them.

 

[Cynic]

Play soft and cry when we get thrown around like rag dolls?

 

[WOTTAMACHINE]

We havent won a free kick count since round 8..
It is shocking some of the decisions they make..
The Buddy issue, i'm 120% sure the umpires have been told to not give any free kicks to him if he is out numbered in a contest..
Umpiring is so inconsistent that other countries watching our game would be laughing at us..
They probably look at it like its fake, the game, like it is scripted, just like the WWE.. You have the goodies and the baddies and the umpires always give the goodies the advantage.. Bloody joke..
Im just waiting on the day when it is so obvious the umpires a favouring a certain team, that there is a huge backlash and the whole umpiring division gets investigated..
Another question I raise.. Are Hawthorn the highest ranked team in goals kicked from free kicks against and 50 metre penalties? It would be interesting to find this out..
5 of Richmonds goals on the weekend were from free kicks.

 

[Off The Couch]

No - while I believe we have had the rough end of the pineapple, we are now heading into round 21.

We need to suck it up and stop sooking about it because quite frankly I am sick to death of being labelled a whinging, sooky hawk.

 

[carntheroos4eva]

(rider: nothing to do with the tigers playing better than us)

I'd be interested in peoples opinions on whether clarkos No 17 comment has made things better or worse for us.

last quarter did it for me - well beatena and still the maggots ajudicated by jumper.

Twice buddy had 3 hanging onto him and no ball in his hands - nothing - if he had the ball it would be HTB for sure. Buddy is the most penailsed player in the AFL and by no means is he a dirty player.
Its a joke to say his suspension would cost him a brownlow cos thers no way thee jokers would vote for him.

One other - one of our players - changa I think (another player who is fair game for any kind of treatment with no recourse) took a mark and the defender held onto him so long another of our players had time to run and take a handpass - then runs on to open goal and the umpire brings him back for a kick - its bullshit - geelong must get a third of their goals that way.. It should have been a 50 or advantage under current interpretations.

We would need to be at leasr 10% better than our opponent to win a final let alone a flag. we are not 10% better at the moment - we have no chance.

Question is csn we do somenting - can we mount a campaing on the net or call up media outlets (not after a game it looka like sour grapes) to ask them to analysie in the cold light of day how buddy gets treated among other things.

Geelong Doggies and North are very good at getting the umps onside and we are not. i'm not sure I would want to celebrate a brownlow being given to our player if he was the best stager since Wanganeen

Yes and that is stop whinging about the umpiring. There is nothing more worse than you people constantly whinging about the umpires. They are out there to do their job but you are there abusing them.
So if you want something to be done about the umpiring, study up the laws of the game and get a grip. Most of the time you guys don't know what you are talking about when it comes to umpiring.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Yes the umpires are clearly biased against us, but we do not help the situation. Of the 20 or so "WTF?" decisions made in the last two years, over half have been in our games, coincidentally, all but one have been against us.

There seems to be a determined effort in the 1st quarters to "put us in our place" - Most weeks we are down 9-2 or 11-4 or similar after a quarter - then the whistle goes away for the rest of the game, until we get a flurry of frees. Also we get a hell of a lot of frees deep in our defensive half - conversely also where most of our frees are given away.

On the whole, we don't 'niggle' opposition players - instead we are the foolish ones caught when we retaliate. (From memory four of our recent suspensions have come almost immediately after umpire inaction has impacted upon our players ability to play).

We mouth off to the umps when they get it wrong, and sometimes even when they get it right.

We don't have red, or white in our jumper. (Statistical evidence shows these two colours are subconsciously favoured (independently, ie either red or white is good, both isn't necessarily any better). Instead we have Brown (worst) and Gold/yellow (Orange is second worst).

We don't play "smart":

No defender can outrun Franklin, yet he turns and grapples with them. Whether they have hold of him first or not - the umpire doesn't notice until the contest arrrives, by which time both are holding - and no free kick paid. Similarly with Roughead. Play the ball boys, and you'll get the frees.

Our defenders (Gilham aside - he's actually handy at it normally) don't impede their opposition forwards in marking contests. Instead, we tend to have ridiculous "push in the back" frees, mostly unnecessary, often after the contest is over. Brown is learning to use his body to take out players legally. Croad can do this, but to often uses his hands - umpires are also awake to his "wasn't me" raising of the arms - I actually think sometimes they'll ping him because of this rather than any genuine infringement.

Our rucks watch the ball - especially Taylor, who uses his opposite arm as a counter-balance, the other ruck initiates contact (literally runs into Taylor's trailing arm) and receives a free kick. This cannot really be overcome by us - it requires a shift in the method of umpiring (watching the whole contest, ie not the umpire bouncing the ball). Similarly Franklin with the high ball - he's watching the ball come in, and smart defenders will back into him. He raises his arms to protect his body and BAM - hands in the back.

We make an issue out of body contact - which has lead to us being pinged more than any other club for late contact or spoiling. Franklin can be driven into the ground after taking a mark and nothing, yet Hodge can successfully spoil the ball before marking, and be pinged for late contact. Our "cluster" strategy usually means we are approaching contests at speed - especially when the opposition are chipping around trying to find holes in our zone.

We give away a high proportion of "downfield advantage" frees, as we focus on bumping the player who disposes of the ball - rarely does this actually hurt our position, but it can do.

We are clearly the worst at getting away with holding/dropping the ball and incorrect disposal. Our entire midfield are ball-winners, who hold the ball in until a good option presents. We take on tacklers, ensuring the ball is secure before impact. Whilst this stops quick turnovers for the most part, it relies on correct umpire interpretations to succeed. Conversely, a team like Geelong are superb at having the ball "spill" on contact of tackling - the umpire (incorrectly IMO) calls play on, and they swoop on it until the next contest. Their gameplan is around people running through the contest to receive the ball, our is about running 'from' the contest with the ball.

That's about it.

 

[WOTTAMACHINE]

Top post Simo..
You bring up some good points there..

 

[TBoyleSuperstar]

No - while I believe we have had the rough end of the pineapple, we are now heading into round 21.

We need to suck it up and stop sooking about it because quite frankly I am sick to death of being labelled a whinging, sooky hawk.[/quote]

agree whole-heartedly. To many people get on here and sulk about the umpires killing us and it paints all Hawks supporters as whingers. Fact is, the umpires are ordinary across the board, and I honestly think the umpiring standard has dropped significantly in recent years. Simon you bring up some very valid points, but the fact is it is outside our control and really, not many games are decided by sub-standard umpiring. if we are good enough, then we will overcome it.

 

[Hawked]

Nothing a couple of high speed inter cranial lead injections wouldn't fix.

 

[BigAl3001]

Yes the umpires are clearly biased against us, but we do not help the situation. Of the 20 or so "WTF?" decisions made in the last two years, over half have been in our games, coincidentally, all but one have been against us.

There seems to be a determined effort in the 1st quarters to "put us in our place" - Most weeks we are down 9-2 or 11-4 or similar after a quarter - then the whistle goes away for the rest of the game, until we get a flurry of frees. Also we get a hell of a lot of frees deep in our defensive half - conversely also where most of our frees are given away.

On the whole, we don't 'niggle' opposition players - instead we are the foolish ones caught when we retaliate. (From memory four of our recent suspensions have come almost immediately after umpire inaction has impacted upon our players ability to play).

We mouth off to the umps when they get it wrong, and sometimes even when they get it right.

We don't have red, or white in our jumper. (Statistical evidence shows these two colours are subconsciously favoured (independently, ie either red or white is good, both isn't necessarily any better). Instead we have Brown (worst) and Gold/yellow (Orange is second worst).

We don't play "smart":

No defender can outrun Franklin, yet he turns and grapples with them. Whether they have hold of him first or not - the umpire doesn't notice until the contest arrrives, by which time both are holding - and no free kick paid. Similarly with Roughead. Play the ball boys, and you'll get the frees.

Our defenders (Gilham aside - he's actually handy at it normally) don't impede their opposition forwards in marking contests. Instead, we tend to have ridiculous "push in the back" frees, mostly unnecessary, often after the contest is over. Brown is learning to use his body to take out players legally. Croad can do this, but to often uses his hands - umpires are also awake to his "wasn't me" raising of the arms - I actually think sometimes they'll ping him because of this rather than any genuine infringement.

Our rucks watch the ball - especially Taylor, who uses his opposite arm as a counter-balance, the other ruck initiates contact (literally runs into Taylor's trailing arm) and receives a free kick. This cannot really be overcome by us - it requires a shift in the method of umpiring (watching the whole contest, ie not the umpire bouncing the ball). Similarly Franklin with the high ball - he's watching the ball come in, and smart defenders will back into him. He raises his arms to protect his body and BAM - hands in the back.

We make an issue out of body contact - which has lead to us being pinged more than any other club for late contact or spoiling. Franklin can be driven into the ground after taking a mark and nothing, yet Hodge can successfully spoil the ball before marking, and be pinged for late contact. Our "cluster" strategy usually means we are approaching contests at speed - especially when the opposition are chipping around trying to find holes in our zone.

We give away a high proportion of "downfield advantage" frees, as we focus on bumping the player who disposes of the ball - rarely does this actually hurt our position, but it can do.

We are clearly the worst at getting away with holding/dropping the ball and incorrect disposal. Our entire midfield are ball-winners, who hold the ball in until a good option presents. We take on tacklers, ensuring the ball is secure before impact. Whilst this stops quick turnovers for the most part, it relies on correct umpire interpretations to succeed. Conversely, a team like Geelong are superb at having the ball "spill" on contact of tackling - the umpire (incorrectly IMO) calls play on, and they swoop on it until the next contest. Their gameplan is around people running through the contest to receive the ball, our is about running 'from' the contest with the ball.

That's about it.

You make some wonderful valid points in this. Send a letter detailing these instances to the Geish at AFL House. He will respond to letters that are professionally written.

 

[MinerBoy]

No - while I believe we have had the rough end of the pineapple, we are now heading into round 21.

We need to suck it up and stop sooking about it because quite frankly I am sick to death of being labelled a whinging, sooky hawk.[/quote]

agree whole-heartedly. To many people get on here and sulk about the umpires killing us and it paints all Hawks supporters as whingers. .

Do you really card what other people using an internet forum think? Who cares if they think we're sooks.

Fact is, they stink in general, and are blatantly bad against us.

Don't defend or protect the umpires, call them out for the incompetent flogs they are. They have too much impact on games.

I applaud those who never use the umpires as an excuse (I am not one of them ). However, anyone who says that they don't impact on the results of games is living in lala land.

 

[HAWKS HEROES]

Something is seriously messed up. I can cop umpiring mistakes but they are just killing us with 2 sets of rules each and every week.

Simple things like v Brisbane when Lewis marked a 25 metre pass and it was called not 15 and then he was pinged. Or when Morton gather a ball that was clearly over the boundary line last week and a goal resulted, I could cope if the boundary umpire was out of position but he was right there. Every week we just cop the rough end of the stick.

Maybe we need to clap and cheer the umpires and be nice and polite rather than abuse them.

that happened right in front of me sure was more then 15 ! yet in the tigers match a ball was kicked clearly not 15 guess what ! they paid a mark when it should have been play on [ tigers had the ball ] .

i do clap when they finally get it right , i do go to the game hoping not to yell at them and may not at first but when they miss heaps or stuff up like they did in the tigers game i can't stop myself yelling at them !

 

[TBoyleSuperstar]

Do you really card what other people using an internet forum think? Who cares if they think we're sooks.

Fact is, they stink in general, and are blatantly bad against us.

Don't defend or protect the umpires, call them out for the incompetent flogs they are. They have too much impact on games.

I applaud those who never use the umpires as an excuse (I am not one of them ). However, anyone who says that they don't impact on the results of games is living in lala land.

MB, i agree that we do seem to get the wrong end of the stick at times, I remember on the weekend when Buddy got pinged for holding the ball despite being taken over the boundary in the tackle and the boundary umpire having clear view of it, but seriously, do you honestly think that the umpires cost us the game on Sunday???

Don't think that Sammy having a disposal efficiency of around 55% might have had an impact?? What about our great idea to completely ignore every forward target barring the guy who had 4 blokes hanging off him???

The fact is good sides can get around it. Sydney get as good a run as we do and they won a flag and played in a GF over two years. Not sure we have lost any games this year wholly and solely because of poor umpiring. Happy to be proven otherwise but i highly doubt you will be able to.

 

[Off The Couch]

"Do you really card what other people using an internet forum think? Who cares if they think we're sooks."

If they were having a go because of how good we were then no I wouldn't /couldn't give a toss, but when you are labelled a whinge even though we are 2nd on the ladder then we need to take a look at ourselves.

"Fact is, they stink in general, and are blatantly bad against us."

You got this right. The standard of umpires has dropped dramatically as has the standard of umpiring across the board

"Don't defend or protect the umpires, call them out for the incompetent flogs they are. They have too much impact on games."

No-one is defending or protecting the umpires, I have on more than one occasion had a b*tch myself, but the job is a difficult one and maybe we need more people like yourself to become accredited so we don't have to put up with these "incompetent flogs"

I applaud those who never use the umpires as an excuse (I am not one of them ). However, anyone who says that they don't impact on the results of games is living in lala land.

Of course they impact on the game but the decisions go both ways, so for every example you could quote as a free kick having an impact so to could the opposition

We are first in frees against but maybe this was because clarko bought us to attention when he commented on our style of play. We are 10th on the frees for which means there are clubs whose are getting a rougher deal. I am pretty sure the club would have spoken to the Geish (not that it appears to have made much difference) but at the end of the day all the complaining and whinging is not going to make one scranny of difference.

 

[superhawkers]

12 weeks in a row the opposition has had more frees than us. Given we are so often first to the ball, I don't believe there is not some bias.... even if it is subconscious.

I actually believe that 12 weeks in a row ought to be investigated by the AFL. Assuming both teams have equal probability of having less free kicks than the other team, 12 weeks in a row is over a 1 in 4000 chance. We are either:

(a) the unluckiest team in history
(b) playing the game incorrectly
(c) copping some umpire bias

Note for one minute do I think we are playing the game incorrectly… even Lewis has calmed down a bit. Therefore it is either (a) or (c).

 

[Pessimistic]

Something is seriously messed up. I can cop umpiring mistakes but they are just killing us with 2 sets of rules each and every week.

Simple things like v Brisbane when Lewis marked a 25 metre pass and it was called not 15 and then he was pinged. Or when Morton gather a ball that was clearly over the boundary line last week and a goal resulted, I could cope if the boundary umpire was out of position but he was right there. Every week we just cop the rough end of the stick.

Maybe we need to clap and cheer the umpires and be nice and polite rather than abuse them.

Commentators "brisbane lining up from 25m from goal"

do the maths

 

[phreeze77]

Go up and shake their hands after the game .. do the 3 cheers for the umpire thing you do in junior footy... maybe they just want to be held.

Nothing else seems to work .. the bastards always get us in the middle as well the trivial someone crossed the line by a bees dick a fraction before the bounce.

Such a momentum swinging decision giving a side a clear centre break as more often than not players dont know which way it is going to go.

 

[MinerBoy]

MB, i agree that we do seem to get the wrong end of the stick at times, I remember on the weekend when Buddy got pinged for holding the ball despite being taken over the boundary in the tackle and the boundary umpire having clear view of it, but seriously, do you honestly think that the umpires cost us the game on Sunday???

Don't think that Sammy having a disposal efficiency of around 55% might have had an impact?? What about our great idea to completely ignore every forward target barring the guy who had 4 blokes hanging off him???

The fact is good sides can get around it. Sydney get as good a run as we do and they won a flag and played in a GF over two years. Not sure we have lost any games this year wholly and solely because of poor umpiring. Happy to be proven otherwise but i highly doubt you will be able to.

Whether a side is good enough to overcome poor umpiring and still win, doesn't change the fact they impact heavily on games.

There have been many times this season where we have been well on top and establishing good leads only to have some very poor umpiring turn momentum around and force us to really scrap and fight to hang on for a win.

This is a credit to us that we are winning. It shouldn't be used to mask the fact that it has kept sides in games that were otherwise being comfortably taken apart.

As for the Richmond game, we were no doubt quite poor. Yet for all their dominance, they still were helped considerably on the scoreboard by decisions or non-decisions at either end. We may not have won, who knows, but with some more equitable umpiring, the game would have well and truly been a lot closer and as football is all about momentum and self belief, that truly makes a difference.

 

[MinerBoy]

No-one is defending or protecting the umpires, I have on more than one occasion had a b*tch myself, but the job is a difficult one and maybe we need more people like yourself to become accredited so we don't have to put up with these "incompetent flogs"[/B].

I really don't like this argument at all CP. How does me becoming accredited help? I have chosen my career path and have become 'accredited' in that. These guys choose to umpire and should do it effectively and competetantly or face the music. No different to me and my chosen profession.

 

[TBoyleSuperstar]

I really don't like this argument at all CP. How does me becoming accredited help? I have chosen my career path and have become 'accredited' in that. These guys choose to umpire and should do it effectively and competetantly or face the music. No different to me and my chosen profession.

That's the thing MB, it isn't a profession for these people. The umpires, from my understanding, aren't professional. Most umpires have jobs outside of their umpiring commitments.

The fact remains, we play a style of footy that is antagonistic, we play on the edge of the line which is the way Clarko likes it. I like it to, but becuase of that we are rarely going to get the rub of the green with umpires. you can't change it, no point whinging about it. We all go to the games and scream our lungs out at the umpires, it frustrates us when we watch on the box at home. I know myself that i was lucky I put my daughter to be at half time of the game or she may have learnt some new phrases that her mother wouldn't have appreciated, but mate, there is nothing we can do. Unless we go down the track of playing a softer brand of footy, we are going to get r*ped week in week out.

 

[Alabama Hot Pocket]

I'm sorry if there are any umpires on this board but does anyone realise that the AFL has done their absolute best to make the umpires look like the biggest gimps. They have their baggy shorts pulled up to their nipples with their baggy shirt tucked in. Their high socks pulled up to their knees.
Secondly, you'll never see a handsome built umpire. Umpires were the gimpy kids who were always too scared and useless to ever play sport. With any luck their childhoods were peppered with abuse and bullying, turning them into the little nerds they are today.
If you adopt this mindset, you'll feel alot better everytime you're about to run onto the field and brain an umpire

 

[MinerBoy]

That's the thing MB, it isn't a profession for these people. The umpires, from my understanding, aren't professional. Most umpires have jobs outside of their umpiring commitments.

I call anything earning you $100K p.a. a profession. That's damn good coin. Whether they do something else is irrelevant. If they want that coin, damn well perform well for it.