Verbeek has quit!!

[chop_me]

Exactly, in international football especially you have to play to your strengths with the hand you are dealt. Did France win it in 1998 with a top notch striker? No way in the world.

Also, Verbeek has learned his trade since the Antilles job as the number 2 at huge clubs and South Korea and wasn't thrusted in to a major job like Frank 'jobs for the boys' Farina or that idiot coaching the Roar were.

Are you all going to go 'I told you so' when someone like Graham Souness would come along and we score 2 but concede four?

i would've been perfectly happy for us to play the same way and perform as we did if we're playing strong opponents..

however, if we have to grind out a win against Indonesia, there's something wrong there..... i know a 1-0 win is still a win... but come on, surely we're better than that?

 

[Poz_Utd_V.2]

i would've been perfectly happy for us to play the same way and perform as we did if we're playing strong opponents..

however, if we have to grind out a win against Indonesia, there's something wrong there..... i know a 1-0 win is still a win... but come on, surely we're better than that?

You really have no idea do you?

That was an A-League based team. Only Wilkshere, Culina and Kennedy played that day who are starting XI in a full side. The rest will all be fighting to make the squad!

It actually further proves the point that Kennedy is not good enough at international level, how he didn't get on the scoresheet that day I'll never know.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

You really have no idea do you?

That was an A-League based team. Only Wilkshere, Culina and Kennedy played that day who are starting XI in a full side. The rest will all be fighting to make the squad!

It actually further proves the point that Kennedy is not good enough at international level, how he didn't get on the scoresheet that day I'll never know.

I agree with Chop Me to a degree, we should be a bit more ruthless and outgoing with teams such as Indonesia. Kennedy was a wild card under Hiddink and now he seems like a bit of an only option as we don't really have any one else to do that lone striker role. McDonald was thrown in to that position when playing in the CL with Celtic but is way too small. Alsopp, Mrdja, McBreen etc aren't all good enough so Kennedy it is.

 

[jd2006]

We cant judge him on avg. Asian Cup qualifying performances cos lets face it an A-League based national team would be lucky to be in the top 80 in the FIFA rankings

 

[thebigboy]

We cant judge him on avg. Asian Cup qualifying performances cos lets face it an A-League based national team would be lucky to be in the top 80 in the FIFA rankings

We've showed that they struggle to beat sides around that mark.

 

[chop_me]

You really have no idea do you?

That was an A-League based team. Only Wilkshere, Culina and Kennedy played that day who are starting XI in a full side. The rest will all be fighting to make the squad!

It actually further proves the point that Kennedy is not good enough at international level, how he didn't get on the scoresheet that day I'll never know.

Kennedy may not be good enough to score against average international teams.. however, Indonesia falls way short of that level...
Its hard to expect our striker to score when all we go is hoof the ball long to him and leave him to fend for himself.

If Kennedy can score week in week out against J-League opponents (good but not great) but struggles to score against Indonesia (mediocre), then perhaps the management just isn't doing its job?? There's a difference between not being able to finish off chances and not creating chances at all.....

I'm not saying play 5 strikers or outright disrespect our oppositions or anything extraordinary.. .i just want to see the team take the game up to the opponent. We dont need messi/ronaldinho to play like that..


For the record, Indonesia is ranked 137th around the likes of India, Hong Kong & Maldives... how many of those players would make our A-League?
I saw Japan's B-team take these teams apart without too much trouble.. why can't we?

 

[Chops18]

Kennedy and McDonald together would be a perfect combo but we don't get the chance to see it.

I cant see Scotty getting too much of a run for me he just hasn't done enough at international level to hold a spot as one of the two starting strikers we all know he has the quality to finish but he seems to have the Viduka curse.

I would like us to chase down a German coach next if we want to play european style football this would be the best option imo, basic football with the physical side to it which is what we do best.

 

[jd2006]

Japan probably have greater depth than us because of how long the J-League has been going, and how strong it is. Lets face it the guys that play when we have ACQ are not international level players and we have to realise that playing against minnows in Asia doesn't mean 31-0 wins

 

[AJ_2000]

We play this system regardless of who the opponent is, as this is the system we will use at the WC. PVB needs to see what players can fit in to this mould.

No point playing a 4-4-2 to see which players do well with this system so we can knock in an extra goal or 2, when we will be using 4-5-1 come the world cup.

 

[thebigboy]

According to the HUN, Rijkaard is being sounded out for the post.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

According to the HUN, Rijkaard is being sounded out for the post.

At least it won't be boring!

 

[Kaan]

If you guys don't like don't like Pim because he plays too defensive, Rijkaard prefers 2 defensive mids instead of an extra striker.

If he does coach Australia, formation will probably stay 4-2-3-1 but obviously he can get more out of his players.

 

[bullish23]

If he does coach Australia, formation will probably stay 4-2-3-1 but obviously he can get more out of his players.

Verbeek too uses 2 defensive midfielders.

 

[Mr_Bojangles]

If you guys don't like don't like Pim because he plays too defensive, Rijkaard prefers 2 defensive mids instead of an extra striker.

If he does coach Australia, formation will probably stay 4-2-3-1 but obviously he can get more out of his players.

What makes you think Pim doesn't inspire his players and someone like Rijkard would?

 

[thebigboy]

What makes you think Pim doesn't inspire his players and someone like Rijkard would?

I think the players will respond to Rikaard a lot more than what they would to Verbeek.

The chance to play under some like him has got to inspire the players to lift.

My only concern is, say a good club in europe sack there manager in between 2010-2014 and they want Rijkaard. Is he really going to want to be in it for the long haul, or will he look to go back and leave us high and dry.

 

[Kaan]

Verbeek too uses 2 defensive midfielders.

Yeah, so the people who don't like Pim because he is too defensive aren't going to get anything different with Rijkaard.

What makes you think Pim doesn't inspire his players and someone like Rijkard would?

I didn't say Pim doesn't inspire the players. I just assume Rijkaard will get more out of the players because he has more experiance(titles with Barca).

Rijkaard coaching Australia could be just rumours though.

 

[Kaan]

I think the players will respond to Rikaard a lot more than what they would to Verbeek.

The chance to play under some like him has got to inspire the players to lift.

My only concern is, say a good club in europe sack there manager in between 2010-2014 and they want Rijkaard. Is he really going to want to be in it for the long haul, or will he look to go back and leave us high and dry.

You can coach clubs and national teams at the same time can't you? I think Guus Hiddink did that with Chelsea and Russia but his Chelsea job was just temporary.

 

[chop_me]

Yeah, so the people who don't like Pim because he is too defensive aren't going to get anything different with Rijkaard.



I didn't say Pim doesn't inspire the players. I just assume Rijkaard will get more out of the players because he has more experiance(titles with Barca).

Rijkaard coaching Australia could be just rumours though.

the formation is one thing... the mindset is another..

my main concern is that our so-called attacking mids are positioned way too deep at the moment... when we hoof the ball to whoever is up front, the guy simply has no support streaming in. By the time our mid-fielders do join him in attack, so do the other team's midfielders, thus making it clogged and difficult to pierce the defence

 

[thebigboy]

You can coach clubs and national teams at the same time can't you? I think Guus Hiddink did that with Chelsea and Russia but his Chelsea job was just temporary.

You can and I think that would be the key to getting Rijkaard.

IIRC and you might know this better than I do but i think he's contracted until 2013 which means he could get us through to the W.C leaving the scouting to Neeskens who'd be in charge of that I'd think meaning that perhaps he'd spend a year before the World Cup focusing on international comittments.

 

[BuddyHawk]

I've written about this ad nauseum before, so I won't rehash in depth, but my rationale is Verbeek has achieved nothing more than the bulk of his predecessors would've had they enjoyed the resources, fixtures and qualifying structure he has - but there's this general perception that Pim has this crazy Dutch magic that sets him apart from say, the likes of Frank Farina, Frank Arok or Eddie Thomson.

Had Venables' excellent class of 1997 been afforded the chances and opponents that Pim has, they'd have qualified for France with bells on. Ditto Farina and his class of 2001.

Would I trust this current Socceroo crop, led by Pim, to win a cutthroat last chance qualifer in Buenos Aries or Montevideo, or get anything more than a point in front of 130000 screaming Iranians in Tehran?

Nup. No way.

He's a functionally solid, no-nonsense, basic, boring European manager who was managing the might of the Netherlands Antilles not long ago. Our qualification is down to the degree of difficulty for World Cup qualification plummeting moreso than his nous or ability outstripping his predecessors.

Your argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, Dyertibe - it seems as though your hatred of Verbeek is blinding to the realities of what our former national team managers actually achieved.

For a start, we have never managed to get a result in South America (1-0 against the Argies in 93, 3-0 and 1-0 against Uruguay in 01 and 05) so I'm not sure why you're posing the question as to whether Verbeek would have a won ``a cuthroat qualifier'' in that particular part of the world. I'm fairly confident he wouldn't have done much worse than Thomson, Farina or Hiddink, unless you're proposing we would have been thumped - but given his ``basic, boring, European'' tendencies I'd think that's unlikely.

And what did Venables' excellent class of 97 actually achieve in WCQ? A couple of draws against Iran? Whoopee. That particular Iranian side was, granted, pretty decent, and Tehran's certainly a hostile environment to play in, but all in all they were no stronger than the Japanese side we faced home and away in the 2010 campaign. When the pressure was really on, Venables was found wanting - a couple of surprise results in the Confederations Cup later that year didn't come close to making up for such an abject failure.

It's entirely possible Verbeek's predecessors would have matched his achievements if they had followed the same qualification path and enjoyed the same resources. But that's not Verbeek's fault - he's achieved everything he could from the situation he was presented with, often without the services of key players. And unlike Thomson, Venables and Farina, he never had the oppotunity to experiment with his side whilst facing Oceania minnows. China was arguably the weakest side we face in WC qualifying, and American Samoa they certainly ain't.

 

[tribey]

Your argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, Dyertibe - it seems as though your hatred of Verbeek is blinding to the realities of what our former national team managers actually achieved.

lol @ 'scrutiny'.

Gosh. I don't hate Verbeek. I just think he's horrendously overrated as a manager.

For a start, we have never managed to get a result in South America (1-0 against the Argies in 93, 3-0 and 1-0 against Uruguay in 01 and 05) so I'm not sure why you're posing the question as to whether Verbeek would have a won ``a cuthroat qualifier'' in that particular part of the world.

Because it was a near impossible task that previous managers had to undertake with negligible resources and preparation compared to the cash-soaked, match-hardened doddle that Verbeek has enjoyed - complete with losses to China and Iraq in the first round, no less.

I'm fairly confident he wouldn't have done much worse than Thomson, Farina or Hiddink, unless you're proposing we would have been thumped - but given his ``basic, boring, European'' tendencies I'd think that's unlikely.

Not thumped, but the leap in degree of difficulty and circumstances is enormous.

And what did Venables' excellent class of 97 actually achieve in WCQ? A couple of draws against Iran? Whoopee. That particular Iranian side was, granted, pretty decent, and Tehran's certainly a hostile environment to play in, but all in all they were no stronger than the Japanese side we faced home and away in the 2010 campaign. When the pressure was really on, Venables was found wanting - a couple of surprise results in the Confederations Cup later that year didn't come close to making up for such an abject failure.

That's the point though. The pressure was really on.

For instance, prior to the away qualifier in Iran there were individual Socceroos across Europe on call as to whether or not to catch a plane to Tokyo, Melbourne or Tehran such was the lack of preparation or 'in camp' time the way the qualification process was structured due to the Japan vs Iran one-legged playoff just seven days prior to the final AFC vs OFC qualifier.

Verbeek's Socceroos have been able to cruise here and there with losses, jammy draws, the works and hey, it's no real biggie, cause there's always the might of Qatar and Bahrain to squeeze past at home without getting out of first gear, right?

It's entirely possible Verbeek's predecessors would have matched his achievements if they had followed the same qualification path and enjoyed the same resources. But that's not Verbeek's fault - he's achieved everything he could from the situation he was presented with, often without the services of key players. And unlike Thomson, Venables and Farina, he never had the oppotunity to experiment with his side whilst facing Oceania minnows. China was arguably the weakest side we face in WC qualifying, and American Samoa they certainly ain't.

He had the opportunity to experiment in the slew of concurrent Asian Cup qualifiers where half his players have those ridiculous numbers from 50-1xx though.

He's had competitive games flying out of his arse, many of them on FIFA-sanctioned matchdays, in fact.

None of this friendly in March, friendly in June, 'oh hi Uruguay!' for Pim. A-League or foreign legion or both, never before has a Socceroos manager enjoyed the level of team cohesion and player experience that he has, nor a qualification structure that allows for off days and downright catastrophes on a given matchday without being choked out for another four barren years.

Conclusion: Under the same conditions and resources his predecessors would've achieved the same results as him at a minimum. Hell, a trained monkey could've. No Dutch passport though, granted.

 

[Selective Retention]

I was at work so didn't catch the conversation on fox sports FC but saw the graphic that they put up with the highest paid managers heading to the world cup. Verbeek was 8th, unbelievable. It's a wonder he didn't want to hang around.

 

[tribey]

I was at work so didn't catch the conversation on fox sports FC but saw the graphic that they put up with the highest paid managers heading to the world cup. Verbeek was 8th, unbelievable. It's a wonder he didn't want to hang around.

Cripes.

 

[BuddyHawk]

That's the point though. The pressure was really on.

For instance, prior to the away qualifier in Iran there were individual Socceroos across Europe on call as to whether or not to catch a plane to Tokyo, Melbourne or Tehran such was the lack of preparation or 'in camp' time the way the qualification process was structured due to the Japan vs Iran one-legged playoff just seven days prior to the final AFC vs OFC qualifier.

Australia's qualification path for the 1998 tournament was the easiest this country has ever known - heck it was probably the easiest any country had known (host nations aside) until New Zealand somehow found it's way to this year's event. We played a few Oceania minnows, home and away against the second best side in Oceania (New Zealand) and home and away against the fourth best side in Asia (Iran). And Venables somehow blew it - you can't excuse that.

And to suggest Venables was dealing with more logistical problems than Verbeek is wrong - the former had to get his best players together for just one week (the week where we played both Iran ties). He wasn't earning the wrath of European managers virtually every month for a 15-month period by calling up players who, in many cases (Cahill, Kewell, Grella etc), were battling injury concerns and were being pressured not to represent their country. Our effort in scratching out a 0-0 draw in Yokohama with a depleted squad that had multiple members arrive only 24-48 hours before the game is, IMO, one of the gutsiest this country has ever produced.



He had the opportunity to experiment in the slew of concurrent Asian Cup qualifiers where half his players have those ridiculous numbers from 50-1xx though.

He's had competitive games flying out of his arse, many of them on FIFA-sanctioned matchdays, in fact.

None of this friendly in March, friendly in June, 'oh hi Uruguay!' for Pim. A-League or foreign legion or both, never before has a Socceroos manager enjoyed the level of team cohesion and player experience that he has, nor a qualification structure that allows for off days and downright catastrophes on a given matchday without being choked out for another four barren years.

Conclusion: Under the same conditions and resources his predecessors would've achieved the same results as him at a minimum. Hell, a trained monkey could've. No Dutch passport though, granted.

To be fair, the World Cup campaign was well and truly advanced by the time the Asian Cup qualifiers started, and the fact four of those six games were on non-FIFA dates meant the teams Verbeek was being forced to select bore minimal resemblance to the stronger sides he was taking into WC qualifiers.

And to suggest the other coaches would have achieved what Verbeek has ``at a minimum'' is a tad bizarre. Out of the 14 qualifiers we played we suffered two losses (one in a dead rubber with a grossly under-strength side against China) and three draws, so unless you're think coaching geniuses like Venables and Farina would have won every game, they couldn't have really achieved a whole lot more.

The other important variable is the quality of the players at Verbeek's disposal - this is far and away the worst generation of players (due to the gradual decline of agening former stars like Kewell, Neill, Moore and Grella and the lack of quality youth coming through) that Australia has had since probably the 1990 qualification campaign. And that's not Verbeek's fault - he isn't heading up the AIS, or implementing a national development program. He's been employed to pick the side best equipped to get the job done, and by and large he's done very well with what he's had at his disposal.