VFL competition is a mess

[Roylion]

This is not true, many of the old Fitzroy fans I know have there own local either VAFA or suburban club which they are aligned to, and see the Fitzroy Reds thing as a bunch of new age hipsters from the Fitzroy area who take there own beers along so they can experience the local football and nothing to do with ex VFL/AFL Fitzroy Lions.

There is no Fitzroy Reds. The Fitzroy Reds ceased to exist when the Fitzroy Reds was incorporated / absorbed into THE Fitzroy Football Club in December 2009, which was the very same club that used to hold an AFL licence.

Many former AFL Fitzroy fans do attend on a Saturday afternoon at Brunswick Street Oval. Some of them support the Brisbane Lions in the AFL, others North, others other AFL clubs, others have nothing to do with the AFL at all.

I am sure you mean well with your pursuit in the VAFA but you are severely under achieving if your only aim is to be in A grade ammos, when you should be aiming to rejoin the highest standard possible and to give the club relevance again.

There is a matter of rebuilding from the bottom up since the events of 1996. That is happening slowly.

First of all, given that Fitzroy was not liquidated in 1996, the club's shareholders and members voted to continue the club in 1997, starting from scratch in terms of finances. From there the Club sought an alignment with the Coburg Lions in the VFL in 1999-2000, before Richmond ended that. In 2004, the Club began sponsoring the University Reds (which had renamed themselves the Fitzroy Reds. In 2009, Fitzroy Football Club entered VAFA D-Grade in their own right, taking the place of the Fitzroy Reds, finally fielding a football team since 1996. From there they've gone to C-Grade and then B-Grade. To build up this far has taken time.

1 million dollars, sounds a lot but I know many local level clubs in my comp EDFL that spend almost that much on player payments and is done without having the 'fitzroy' name behind them.

A million dollars per club in player payments in the EDFL? I do find that hard to believe. $100,000-200,000 maybe, but not a million.

I am sure with some lobbying the AFL and Brisbane Lions would get on board and help with a good part of the funding,

Forget about the Brisbane Lions. They don't have the money. The AFL might have the moneny, but they won't help Fitzroy specifically to get into an independent VFA.

There is nothing wrong with Brunswick Street Oval as it is,

The Brunswick Street Oval does not meet the standards of VFL football. The Club has already been told that.

Whitten oval is open to public and they are playing VFL games there now and if it were to host VFL football it all of a sudden becomes easier to get state funding to improve facilities.

The BSO won't host VFL football without a fence and entry gates around it at the very least. It also needs more seating.

 

[CrowdedHouse]

I actually chuckle when I hear about the Hawthorn-Box Hill partnership being the best.

For media/PR sake, that's what is said. However, after years of calling Box Hill every week in the VFL I can assure you, Box Hill is very much the puppet of Hawthorn.

The current Box Hill board is controlled 4-3 by the Hawthorn faction and always will be.

If Hawthorn say 'jump', Box Hill ask 'how high?'.

A clear example is the jumper. I know the Box Hill faction fought tooth and nail against it, but the Hawthorn faction got their way. The Box Hill faction won the concession of having a small mustang on the jumper.

I've heard a few Mustang supporters who have turned their back on the club. In fact (surprising to me) they told me back in the day the supporters had more of a closer alignment to Richmond than Hawthorn!

When they won the flag last year, I reckon there was lucky to be 150 people in their clubrooms. Compared to a proud club like Port Melbourne, where we had about 1,000 at our rooms when we flag in 2011 - so many people that night... couldn't move in the social rooms.

So, like I said, to the average uninformed Hawthorn supporter, the partnership looks great, it's only because you actually own Box Hill!

 

[pazza]

It breaks my heart in a way seeing the VFL as it is now.

Growing up and heading down to watch Willi and freezing my balls off in the old stand at Point Gellibrand was fantastic.

I would hope a fully non-aligned competition happens and soon. I can't see Fitzroy or South Melbourne ever being involved in it. North Melbourne could do it at Arden St though.

The country clubs in Ballarat and Bendigo can survive provided they are supported by their respective communities and country leagues.

Ideally I would have a two-tiered competition.

North Ballarat, Bendigo, Carlton, Collingwood, Coburg, Preston, Essendon, North Melbourne, Footscray, Shepparton, Warrnambool and Williamstown

Melbourne, Richmond, Box Hill, Hawthorn, Casey, Sandringham, Frankston, St. Kilda, Geelong, Werribee, Traralgon and Port Melbourne.

Final 5's in both divisions with promotion and relegation after the 2nd year.

 

[Messenger]

I actually chuckle when I hear about the Hawthorn-Box Hill partnership being the best.

For media/PR sake, that's what is said. However, after years of calling Box Hill every week in the VFL I can assure you, Box Hill is very much the puppet of Hawthorn.

The current Box Hill board is controlled 4-3 by the Hawthorn faction and always will be.

If Hawthorn say 'jump', Box Hill ask 'how high?'.

A clear example is the jumper. I know the Box Hill faction fought tooth and nail against it, but the Hawthorn faction got their way. The Box Hill faction won the concession of having a small mustang on the jumper.

I've heard a few Mustang supporters who have turned their back on the club. In fact (surprising to me) they told me back in the day the supporters had more of a closer alignment to Richmond than Hawthorn!

When they won the flag last year, I reckon there was lucky to be 150 people in their clubrooms. Compared to a proud club like Port Melbourne, where we had about 1,000 at our rooms when we flag in 2011 - so many people that night... couldn't move in the social rooms.

So, like I said, to the average uninformed Hawthorn supporter, the partnership looks great, it's only because you actually own Box Hill!

It is the only relationship that has lasted. Perhaps the clubs are more honest about the dynamic that the ones that didn't last? Don't know.

Most Hawks supporters I know understand the dynamics of the relationship and what you've posted is accurate. But Box Hill isn't Port, nor is it Williamstown. The don't have the built in supporter base, nor the history of success that allows it to recruit well. Box Hill have lost as many players to
jobs in the EFL as other VFL clubs.

A stand alone Box Hill are likely no better off than a stand alone Coburg who appears to be sucking oxygen through a drinking straw to stay alive.

Serious question to a VFL afficionado - what does a VFL stripped of AFL affiliations look like? is it viable as a third tier in Victorian football behind AFL reserves and slightly above big suburban leagues and the Ammos?

 

[Yoda_]

Are any of you guys VFL regulars or is it just bigfooty banter. Eg like " we should have 24 teams, one in cairns, one in tiwi islands" etc etc

haven't missed a game in years.

 

[Yoda_]

The sooner it is a stand alone AFL reserves, the better.

 

[Pessimistic]

I actually chuckle when I hear about the Hawthorn-Box Hill partnership being the best.

For media/PR sake, that's what is said. However, after years of calling Box Hill every week in the VFL I can assure you, Box Hill is very much the puppet of Hawthorn.

The current Box Hill board is controlled 4-3 by the Hawthorn faction and always will be.

If Hawthorn say 'jump', Box Hill ask 'how high?'.

A clear example is the jumper. I know the Box Hill faction fought tooth and nail against it, but the Hawthorn faction got their way. The Box Hill faction won the concession of having a small mustang on the jumper.

I've heard a few Mustang supporters who have turned their back on the club. In fact (surprising to me) they told me back in the day the supporters had more of a closer alignment to Richmond than Hawthorn!

When they won the flag last year, I reckon there was lucky to be 150 people in their clubrooms. Compared to a proud club like Port Melbourne, where we had about 1,000 at our rooms when we flag in 2011 - so many people that night... couldn't move in the social rooms.

So, like I said, to the average uninformed Hawthorn supporter, the partnership looks great, it's only because you actually own Box Hill!

I must admit, after us making a big deal about the melbourne hawks jumper back in 96 the box hill jumper runs a bit sour, taking over another club like that

 

[grassrootsfooty]

The sooner it is a stand alone AFL reserves, the better.

We are going through the same pain in SA, the AFL need to take both the crows and Power reseves teams out of the SANFL. ATM the Power are running with a good injury List and have 15 AFL players in their SANFL side, no team can get close and in the second half of games they start playing kick to kick so not to blow the opposition away.

The Salary cap in the SANFL is $340K for an entire squad, playing gainst the The Power or Crows means their 22 on the park have a salary of approx$2.5 Million.

The AFL seriously need to take control of teh situation with last year seeing Brisbane Lions win their league, Sydney Swans win their League and Geelong win the Vic league. The pattern is looking at the Power winning thsi year.

With their 1.25 Billion in TV rights surely they can have an AFL reserves competition or else the AFL brand will diminish with the local footy being the
first to suffer then a flow on affect.

 

[Yoda_]

We are going through the same pain in SA, the AFL need to take both the crows and Power reseves teams out of the SANFL. ATM the Power are running with a good injury List and have 15 AFL players in their SANFL side, no team can get close and in the second half of games they start playing kick to kick so not to blow the opposition away.

The Salary cap in the SANFL is $340K for an entire squad, playing gainst the The Power or Crows means their 22 on the park have a salary of approx$2.5 Million.

The AFL seriously need to take control of teh situation with last year seeing Brisbane Lions win their league, Sydney Swans win their League and Geelong win the Vic league. The pattern is looking at the Power winning thsi year.

With their 1.25 Billion in TV rights surely they can have an AFL reserves competition or else the AFL brand will diminish with the local footy being the
first to suffer then a flow on affect.

I miss the grand old days of the curtain raiser


Grand final day as a child was one of the best days for football ever.

TAC Cup grand final early, AFL reserves at midday and the AFL Grand final at the same time spot (approximately) it's been for years and years, and years and years.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

The AFL seriously need to take control of teh situation with last year seeing Brisbane Lions win their league, Sydney Swans win their League and Geelong win the Vic league. The pattern is looking at the Power winning thsi year.

With their 1.25 Billion in TV rights surely they can have an AFL reserves competition or else the AFL brand will diminish with the local footy being the
first to suffer then a flow on affect.

Box Hill won the VFL last year, not that that changes your overall point much. East Perth (WCE's reserves side) are travelling pretty well in the WAFL but aren't dominating, and Peel (Freo's reserves) are yet to win a game.

I'd love to see a reserves comp come in, but would the VFL survive if you took out the Geelongs and Collingwoods and took all the AFL-listed players out of the Box Hills and Sandringhams? Taking about 150 of the best/most promising players (10 teams x about 15 players per team) out of the comp would put a massive dent in the quality of the product, and that's before you even consider where the reserves sides would get top up players from.

 

[Yoda_]

Box Hill won the VFL last year, not that that changes your overall point much. East Perth (WCE's reserves side) are travelling pretty well in the WAFL but aren't dominating, and Peel (Freo's reserves) are yet to win a game.

I'd love to see a reserves comp come in, but would the VFL survive if you took out the Geelongs and Collingwoods and took all the AFL-listed players out of the Box Hills and Sandringhams? Taking about 150 of the best/most promising players (10 teams x about 15 players per team) out of the comp would put a massive dent in the quality of the product, and that's before you even consider where the reserves sides would get top up players from.

Worked pretty well for years, don't see how it would be a problem this time around.

Would hopefully enable clubs like Bendigo and Frankston improve and be competitive again.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

I miss the grand old days of the curtain raiser


Grand final day as a child was one of the best days for football ever.

TAC Cup grand final early, AFL reserves at midday and the AFL Grand final at the same time spot (approximately) it's been for years and years, and years and years.

Wouldn't even have to be at the ground, could have a curtain raiser to MCG games at Punt Road and Docklands at Whitten Oval, just allow 45mins or so for time to get from the reserves game to the AFL ground.

 

[Yoda_]

Wouldn't even have to be at the ground, could have a curtain raiser to MCG games at Punt Road and Docklands at Whitten Oval, just allow 45mins or so for time to get from the reserves game to the AFL ground.

Richmond & Essendon are actually doing this in a few weeks (can't remember the date) but is the week of the VFL state game this year.

VFL game is at 2:00pm at Punt Road and the AFL game (entertainment kicks off) at 7pm.

Gives about 2 hours between the VFL finishing (generally about 5 - 530) and the main game starting (assuming 7:40pm for the Saturday night MCG timeslot)

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Worked pretty well for years, don't see how it would be a problem this time around.

Would hopefully enable clubs like Bendigo and Frankston improve and be competitive again.

Wasn't the VFA in a fair bit of financial strife before the AFL did away with its reserves comp though?

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Box Hill won the VFL last year, not that that changes your overall point much. East Perth (WCE's reserves side) are travelling pretty well in the WAFL but aren't dominating, and Peel (Freo's reserves) are yet to win a game.

I'd love to see a reserves comp come in, but would the VFL survive if you took out the Geelongs and Collingwoods and took all the AFL-listed players out of the Box Hills and Sandringhams? Taking about 150 of the best/most promising players (10 teams x about 15 players per team) out of the comp would put a massive dent in the quality of the product, and that's before you even consider where the reserves sides would get top up players from.

Wouldn't just survive it would thrive, currently the AFL connections are effecting the standard of play. I was speaking with someone involved at Coburg a few weeks back and they said last year with Robin Nahas, Coburg were told that he had to play all game but was not allowed to leave the 50m arc, they were down a midfield rotation in one game and would have liked to put Nahas through the midfield where he has proven himself at VFL level and could have won the game, but because of Richmond's instructions they were not allowed.

The VFL could also be stand alone without the AFL's instructions, they would be free to play the game as it should be played and not with all the stupid rule interpretations they play with at the moment.

 

[Whowants2know]

[QUOTE="ItsAllAboutMe, post: 33012541, member: 34458"

The VFL could also be stand alone without the AFL's instructions, they would be free to play the game as it should be played and not with all the stupid rule interpretations they play with at the moment.[/QUOTE]

How would the clubs pay for players, umpires etc etc, without $$$ coming from the AFL it wouldn't last 5 minutes, players would head to other leagues chasing the cash

 

[Yoda_]

[QUOTE="ItsAllAboutMe, post: 33012541, member: 34458"

The VFL could also be stand alone without the AFL's instructions, they would be free to play the game as it should be played and not with all the stupid rule interpretations they play with at the moment.

How would the clubs pay for players, umpires etc etc, without $$$ coming from the AFL it wouldn't last 5 minutes, players would head to other leagues chasing the cash[/QUOTE]

This is where the VFL need to get back that history and distinction instead of relying on AFL leg ups.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

[QUOTE="ItsAllAboutMe, post: 33012541, member: 34458"

The VFL could also be stand alone without the AFL's instructions, they would be free to play the game as it should be played and not with all the stupid rule interpretations they play with at the moment.

How would the clubs pay for players, umpires etc etc, without $$$ coming from the AFL it wouldn't last 5 minutes, players would head to other leagues chasing the cash[/QUOTE]

Exactly the same way that local suburban, country and amateur clubs manage to pay for players, by providing a club environment that draws in sponsors and supporters. It would still be a feeder competition for those with ambition to go onto a higher level and would be the highest standard outside of AFL so would still attract the kids looking to prove themselves once they finish TAC. I would scrap the VFL reserves though and there would be a significant costs saving to the clubs.

 

[Yoda_]

Exactly the same way that local suburban, country and amateur clubs manage to pay for players, by providing a club environment that draws in sponsors and supporters. It would still be a feeder competition for those with ambition to go onto a higher level and would be the highest standard outside of AFL so would still attract the kids looking to prove themselves once they finish TAC. I would scrap the VFL reserves though and there would be a significant costs saving to the clubs.

well said

FWIW

Went up the Bendigo for the long weekend (Essendon just happened to be playing the VFL that week too ) and the support and backing from the Bendigo community was top notch. The crowd was larger than it usually would (probably due to the Bendigo show being on) but the general support of the supporters was loud. The amount of apparel around the ground supporting 'the Gold' was astounding for a club apparently 'struggling'.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

well said

FWIW

Went up the Bendigo for the long weekend (Essendon just happened to be playing the VFL that week too ) and the support and backing from the Bendigo community was top notch. The crowd was larger than it usually would (probably due to the Bendigo show being on) but the general support of the supporters was loud. The amount of apparel around the ground supporting 'the Gold' was astounding for a club apparently 'struggling'.

Cheers, must be a Spurs thing COYS.

Yep and no doubt many of those fans wouldn't have supported the Bendigo Bombers because they barrack for other AFL Clubs, but now the bombers are gone they get back on board. If the VFL fcks off the AFL clubs costs will come down, as they wont need to employ the amount of coaching staff and pay wages as high simply to compete.

 

[MrNatural]

Should just revert back to AFL reserves.
Rather than having players spread across different leagues in different states.
Would be nice to have these games as curtain raisers too, but fat chance of that happening because apparently the ground can't take the traffic

 

[Yoda_]

Should just revert back to AFL reserves.
Rather than having players spread across different leagues in different states.
Would be nice to have these games as curtain raisers too, but fat chance of that happening because apparently the ground can't take the traffic

Totally agree. Would have thought that multi million dollar venues could handle 5 hours of traffic (2.5hr VFL games, 2.5hr AFL games).

Melbourne - bound Interstate travelling teams would be able to play at the multitude of AFL aligned VFL venues as curtain raisers that weekend as well. Would be a nice little bounty for the AFL too.

Imagine a strong West Coast Reserves side playing a match at Victoria Park (Collingwood)? Or the Power reserves playing a match at Windy Hill (Essendon)? Would attract a decent crowd I would imagine.

 

[MrNatural]

Totally agree. Would have thought that multi million dollar venues could handle 5 hours of traffic (2.5hr VFL games, 2.5hr AFL games).

Melbourne - bound Interstate travelling teams would be able to play at the multitude of AFL aligned VFL venues as curtain raisers that weekend as well. Would be a nice little bounty for the AFL too.

Imagine a strong West Coast Reserves side playing a match at Victoria Park (Collingwood)? Or the Power reserves playing a match at Windy Hill (Essendon)? Would attract a decent crowd I would imagine.

Would make it easier for teams travelling interstate knowing they have a reserve side to choose from in the event of injury or what not.
I'd even go as far as to say that the league should allow AFL teams to have U18s or U19s team.
I'd love to go watch a Collingwood U18s or reserves game before the AFL game.
Not sure of the logistics required for the AFL to introduce an U18s competition, but it would be nice

 

[oldmanemu]

There should be two tiers starting in 2015, and they should be allocated on final ladder positions at the end of the home and away season. If it were now it'd be set-up like:

Tier 1 - Box Hill (Hawthorn), Port Melbourne, Sandringham (St.Kilda), Williamstown, Footscray, Werribee (Nth Melb 1), Geelong, Collingwood
Tier 2 - Casey (Melbourne), Northern Blues (Carlton), Richmond, Essendon, North Ballarat (Nth Melb 2), Coburg, Frankston, Bendigo

One of the major selling points for teams like Coburg, Frankston and Bendigo, is that their players, most of which are 20-21 year olds in the case of Bendigo, get to test themselves against AFL opposition most weeks. Gives them a chance to prove themselves against top quality opposition, instead of wasting their time in local footy.

You'd play against sides three times per season, and then finals and ladder position decides who promotes and who demotes.

Just like the old VFA days.

First issue though is that Sandringham are going it alone in 2016, which bogs it up a bit fixture-wise.

Two eight teams league works, two ten league teams would be better, but perhaps not financially viable for some clubs. However, I don't see how Carlton get anything out of playing at Preston, Melbourne at Casey is just stupid and North having two VFL sides is just as mad.

So really, only Hawthorn/Box Hill seems to be working.

If all the AFL clubs had their own team you'd have
Tier 1 - Hawthorn, St.Kilda, Footscray, North Melbourne, Geelong, Collingwood, Melbourne, Carlton, Richmond, Essendon
Tier 2 - Box Hill, Port Melbourne, Sandringham, Williamstown, Werribee, Casey (Springvale), Northern (Preston), North Ballarat, Coburg, Frankston, Bendigo

10 teams in 1, 11 in Tier 2. And to be honest, Northern would probably fold instantly. Not good, but it'd make 10 in each tier. Perfect.

 

[ClarkeM]

Does anyone know why the Roosters are playing the Bulldogs at Simonds Stadium on the 28th of June? Not as convenient as the Swan Hill game next week but nearly just as weird...