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Kappa said:
No, you are desperate to find every mistake in the past decade and use it as evidence that the whole police force has an issue.
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Nah.
As I said I want to trust and believe.
And part of that comes from an open process into investigation of complaints.
This is not a situation that we have right now. Unlike other states.
And that process will only come from the people pressuring the government.
 

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if they get a few wrong along the way so be it. its impossible to be 100% right. the amount of sh1t they cop on the job its no wonder a few snap. they don't get paid enough.
 
TW Sherrin said:
if they get a few wrong along the way so be it. its impossible to be 100% right. the amount of sh1t they cop on the job its no wonder a few snap. they don't get paid enough.
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I agree with all of that.
But they do publically hold themselves to a higher moral imperative than the general public.
And “getting a few wrong along the way” is to be expected for the number of cases they handle.
In the case linked above though, they got it “wrong” on eight occasions. Question must be asked why?
I’m comforted that they acknowledge that and hopefully have learnt from it.
The “few that snap” should be dismissed, not defended. An independent investigator is preferable to the situation we now have where colleagues do the investigating.
For me, that’s the issue. Police investigating police.
It’s not really independent is it?
 
Black_White said:
I agree with all of that.
But they do publically hold themselves to a higher moral imperative than the general public.
And “getting a few wrong along the way” is to be expected for the number of cases they handle.
In the case linked above though, they got it “wrong” on eight occasions. Question must be asked why?
I’m comforted that they acknowledge that and hopefully have learnt from it.
The “few that snap” should be dismissed, not defended. An independent investigator is preferable to the situation we now have where colleagues do the investigating.
For me, that’s the issue. Police investigating police.
It’s not really independent is it?
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I've got no doubt society would be better if they used phone books and divvy van rides like they used to.

As to who should investigate them, I dont think anone else could understand their jobs and issues better than their peers.
 
TW Sherrin said:
I've got no doubt society would be better if they used phone books and divvy van rides like they used to.

As to who should investigate them, I dont think anone else could understand their jobs and issues better than their peers.
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I'm an ex cop and believe me police investigating police is not a good thing.
Must be done by an independent body.
 
ottoman said:
I'm an ex cop and believe me police investigating police is not a good thing.
Must be done by an independent body.
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Which Dept/State if you don't mind me asking? I'm a little on the fence with this issue. When there are incidents of serious misconduct/criminal behaviour, in some ways I believe that the Police are the best placed to investigate. They are professional investigators after all. Most people would be surprised to know just how many Police are actually prosecuted (both criminally and internally) by Police. Its not the boys club that it once was.

As for the featured video, it certainly doesn't look great. But it also probably doesn't tell the whole story. These coppers are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, and that is they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. And a cut and shut video isn't conclusive proof of anything. If it turns out that they have done the wrong thing, I have reasonable confidence that they will face the appropriate consequences.

If having an independant body investigate coppers is what appeases people, so be it I guess. One thing I'm very confident of though is that it won't all of a sudden result in a remarkable increase in successful prosecutions against Police.
 
Pedro said:
Which Dept/State if you don't mind me asking? I'm a little on the fence with this issue. When there are incidents of serious misconduct/criminal behaviour, in some ways I believe that the Police are the best placed to investigate. They are professional investigators after all. Most people would be surprised to know just how many Police are actually prosecuted (both criminally and internally) by Police. Its not the boys club that it once was.

As for the featured video, it certainly doesn't look great. But it also probably doesn't tell the whole story. These coppers are entitled to the same rights as everyone else, and that is they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. And a cut and shut video isn't conclusive proof of anything. If it turns out that they have done the wrong thing, I have reasonable confidence that they will face the appropriate consequences.

If having an independant body investigate coppers is what appeases people, so be it I guess. One thing I'm very confident of though is that it won't all of a sudden result in a remarkable increase in successful prosecutions against Police.
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The problem you find with police investigating police is that some of the guys in internal investigations try to go as easy as they can or you have the others that go as hard as they can to show they are not doing favours. Either way it doesn't end in a fair outcome.
You also have the issue of investigating people who are a higher rank than you that you may one day have to work with, or you may have to investigate someone who you know has a lot of powerful friends within the force.
Ultimately it's just flawed investigating your own.
Easier to just hand the process over to an independent body.
I'm not saying that the system is corrupt. There are many officers withing Internal Investigations that conduct themselves very professionally, but it's still a flawed system.
Also I think having an independent body doing it would make the public feel much more confident that the correct outcomes are being reached.
 
ppoiter said:
Surprised there hasn't been any discussion on this yet:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-officers-faked-more-than-258000-breath-tests

Police have been caught faking approximately 1.5% of total breath tests. Not hard to imagine unfortunately, lots of people would fake a few to go home early on a cold night
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I was going to, but then realised it was a victimless “crime”.
They didn’t fake positive tests, only faked the amount of tests.
Which makes me believe that the quotas that are asked of the members to deliver are simply to high for the resources thrown at it.
 

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They’ve been doing a lot of good lately has VicPol.
But they continue to f themselves up.
Now this guy isn’t an angel, we understand that. But he was one who stood up for the men in blue when needed.
So why oppose bail as an “unacceptable risk”?
He’s never committed violence according to their own records. So how he is he an unacceptable risk?
https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...s-spends-night-in-jail-after-burglary-charges
 
Black_White said:
They’ve been doing a lot of good lately has VicPol.
But they continue to f themselves up.
Now this guy isn’t an angel, we understand that. But he was one who stood up for the men in blue when needed.
So why oppose bail as an “unacceptable risk”?
He’s never committed violence according to their own records. So how he is he an unacceptable risk?
https://www.9news.com.au/national/2...s-spends-night-in-jail-after-burglary-charges
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There is more to being considered an "unacceptable risk" than being violent. ie he continues to commit offences whilst on bail, or has a history of failing to appear. I have no issue with Police opposing bail for anyone. Let the Magistrates bail them out. At least when things go south its not on the coppers heads.
 
Pedro said:
There is more to being considered an "unacceptable risk" than being violent. ie he continues to commit offences whilst on bail, or has a history of failing to appear. I have no issue with Police opposing bail for anyone. Let the Magistrates bail them out. At least when things go south its not on the coppers heads.
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His offences are all property related.
Meanwhile there are true “unacceptable risks” on the streets.
Rapists, one punch killers etc.
Magistrates end up giving bail because the Police continue to cry wolf on every person charged.
Time the Police actually made an assessment as to who is a real risk to our physical well-being, not our property well being.
 
Black_White said:
His offences are all property related.
Meanwhile there are true “unacceptable risks” on the streets.
Rapists, one punch killers etc.
Magistrates end up giving bail because the Police continue to cry wolf on every person charged.
Time the Police actually made an assessment as to who is a real risk to our physical well-being, not our property well being.
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You'd be ok if he was granted bail and burged your house the next day then? Or stole your car? F that. I wouldn't be.
 
Ah, so another idiot appointed to head up VicPol traffic management.
https://www.3aw.com.au/new-top-traffic-cop-flags-more-40km-h-zones-and-crackdown-on-elderly-drivers/
Completely ignoring the fact that we don’t train our drivers to drive correctly, we train them to pass a test.
I’ve just spent two weeks driving in Italy. And that’s an eye opener. Seems there isn’t any laws governing driving. It’s a free for all in the cities and on the freeways.
But in all that time I did not see one bingle or one tow truck.
What I did see was courtesy. Never had an issue merging with traffic or getting out of a tight situation.
Things I don’t see when driving in Melbourne, or the country for that matter.
This new idiot has swallowed the TAC edict that speed kills. Well I sat on the speed limit of 130kmh, on roads no better than ours, and was passed constantly. And no one died.
Education is the answer to reducing the road toll, not persecution.
Every driver should have to complete a defensive driving course.
Every driver must complete a day driving a truck in Melbourne traffic.
That would make a true difference to the road toll.
 
Black_White said:
Obviously possessions rule your life.
Sad for you.
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Mate its not so much possessions. But not everyone is ok with people invading their home and stealing their shit. Many people suffer more from the sense of having their privacy destroyed than losing their PS4.
Steal my car and its not that I have any great attachment to the $1000's worth of work gear in it, but it would F*ck with my livlihood. Even if it was in the short term. So I guess I am attached to some possessions. What would piss me off more is if I found out they were nicked by some scrote who was on multiple lots of bail and probably shouldn't have been out to do it the first place.
 
Pedro said:
Mate its not so much possessions. But not everyone is ok with people invading their home and stealing their shit. Many people suffer more from the sense of having their privacy destroyed than losing their PS4.
Steal my car and its not that I have any great attachment to the $1000's worth of work gear in it, but it would F*ck with my livlihood. Even if it was in the short term. So I guess I am attached to some possessions. What would piss me off more is if I found out they were nicked by some scrote who was on multiple lots of bail and probably shouldn't have been out to do it the first place.
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You talk as if you would commit violence against someone who steals from you. Hope sanity would prevail if this ever happens to you.
Losing your car may affect your livelihood. But if it’s an important tool to make your living I would hope you have appropriate insurance with a hire car provided if your car was stolen.
I would much prefer trolley man, with his level of crime, be bailed than someone like this;
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-19/kogarah-assault-raises-parole-questions/10509394
And yes, I’m aware it’s NSW, but it’s just an example, plenty of the same happening here.

Bail is going to be provided because you, and me, aren’t prepared to pay increased taxes to stop magistrates from having to make these decisions.
 
Black_White said:
You talk as if you would commit violence against someone who steals from you. Hope sanity would prevail if this ever happens to you.
Long bow to draw mate. Not sure where I even intimated such a thing. And it has happened. Several times. Maybe that's why I don't have such a tolerant attitude towards it

Losing your car may affect your livelihood. But if it’s an important tool to make your living I would hope you have appropriate insurance with a hire car provided if your car was stolen.

Yep, great, everything is insured. Doesn't mean it aint going to mean time off work though. A Hire car doesn't get stuff built. Insurance takes time. When you aren't at work, you don't get paid.

I would much prefer trolley man, with his level of crime, be bailed than someone like this;
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-19/kogarah-assault-raises-parole-questions/10509394
And yes, I’m aware it’s NSW, but it’s just an example, plenty of the same happening here.

Possibly, but didn't this start as a discussion about violence not being the only factor of what constitutes someone being considered an 'unacceptable risk'. The Bail Act lists 4 factors. Violence being only 1 of them.

Bail is going to be provided because you, and me, aren’t prepared to pay increased taxes to stop magistrates from having to make these decisions.
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Again, If a Maigsistrate elects to grant bail, its off the coppers conscience what happens next. The reality is that I know they are going to get bail. And they will get it time and time again. It's not a case of Police 'crying wolf' though. We don't have the room to accommodate those who should probably be in custody. And we probably never will.
 

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