WADA finds high tb4 levels in Bombers pair.

[DesertRoo]

To those who've followed this closely: is there a chance of more positive drug tests in the coming weeks? Or did they test all 34 players and only 2 came back positive with the current methods available (meaning more positive tests could only arise with new testing procedures)?

It could be the possibility of a couple of players being target tested.
Three players being tested nine times, only one test out of the nine comes back with a positive equals they're fooked.

 

[threesixpio]

That is the most elegant, succinct, summary of the whole situation I have read.

But if this is right no argument of duping will suffice. If people were duped as to it's legal status rather than what the substance actually was this is not a defence and, given the code's clear placement of responsibility on the athlete, I don't think it's terribly mitigating either

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

I thought Hirdy spoke well there. Unfortunately, as we know, injuries are a big part of football - or any sport for that matter. We did have our fair share of injuries (bad luck), and probably haven't recovered all that well. But on that upside, we still have a strong leader, and a great club. EFC will bounce back from this. It (saga/witch hunt) is a minor setback, it will only make the journey back to the top - all the sweeter. #standbyhird.

Still waiting for all that sweetness?

Bugger - now I've gone and fed the troll. Back to the penalty box for ol' foamer here.

 

[Crankyhawk]

As a result of using TB4?

As a reason for the high levels.

 

[chelseacarlton]

Nah. He was just carrying the burden of getting pantsed by 100+ points by the team he ditched to win a premiership.

Noice

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

Essendon's season is over either way, do the Dirty 34 (or what is left) just take a provisional suspension and sit out the last 5 games?

Port not really a show so Ryder and Monfries out isnt that big a deal.

Dogs lose Crameri, which is big, but they have options if they need to cover him.

Lol. That ship sailed a long time ago. WADA are going in dry.

 

[Barry_Badrinath]

So relieved that WADA are there and they came OTT

Ooga booga

 

[oldgriffin]

Too much emphasis is being made on what abnormal levels mean when the most important thing here is WADA's belief they're due to external sources.

If CAS takes the same view the game will be up.

Your one sentence sums up everything well !

"Abnormal levels" for something that shouldn't even be found in urine is deliberately misleading.
There is no chance anyone on this board would piss urine with synthetically modified TB4 in it.
Unless of course they had been administered it EXTERNALLY !

 

[threesixpio]

James Hird : "I run the program and you got to take responsibility for the program" !!!
Empty words... no honour ... no conscience.
(couldn't actually say "I've got to take responsibility...)

He was referring to you Conch. It's your fault

 

[jj1978]

Doubt it was the AFL that leaked...my bet ASADA... So annoyed they probably are over the BS and farce that was now by leaking they make the players and Hird sweat.... Dank and co worried.... This leak might finally get someone to plea bargain for info.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

James Hird : "I run the program and you got to take responsibility for the program" !!!
Empty words... no honour ... no conscience.
(couldn't actually say "I've got to take responsibility...)

Yep this one was damning for me as well.

Looks to have been during the season, in amongst the thick of the injuries.

So well before the "blackest day in sport" and "self-reporting supplements program", Hirdy is publically taking ownership and responsibility for running the program.

Awesome.

 

[threesixpio]

Doubt it was the AFL that leaked...my bet ASADA... So annoyed they probably are over the BS and farce that was now by leaking they make the players and Hird sweat.... Dank and co worried.... This leak might finally get someone to plea bargain for info.

I reckon it's the AFL

They either know the players are f@cked or want to highlight new evidence to avoid being accused of getting the tribunal to fix it

 

[Mningasimisonda]

As a reason for the high levels.

Was joking

 

[thegrach]

I thought Hirdy spoke well there. Unfortunately, as we know, injuries are a big part of football - or any sport for that matter. We did have our fair share of injuries (bad luck), and probably haven't recovered all that well. But on that upside, we still have a strong leader, and a great club. EFC will bounce back from this. It (saga/witch hunt) is a minor setback, it will only make the journey back to the top - all the sweeter. #standbyhird.

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

Ah right so that's why Goddard had such a shocker. Wait wat

 

[Kavliaris69]

Just a reminder of what the afl reckons :


During the relevant period, the Club caused the following substances to be administered to players at the Club:

(j) Lube-all-plus;


and (p) Tribulus.

Hird really did give the club, players and supporters a reaming. LOL. I thought he went in dry.

Maybe it was for Tania.

 

[jenny61_99]

Chips take on it is of course very pro-Essendon. Doesn't mean anything. Expert says could be all sorts of reasons for elevated levels of TB4 in the blood. Which is true.

Only, they sampled urine, not blood. And of course, they may have been looking for the externally delivered synthetic version of TB4 rather than the naturally occurring peptide. But let's not look at that.

 

[pie machine]

Wow essondon took th4 ,well I never

 

[Chief]

That's it. One piece of evidence concerning 2 out 42, of potentially elevated levels of a substance that occurs naturally and has no accepted minimum or maximum levels.

What is the normal level? How high were the levels in these samples? What else causes elevated levels? Are synthetic and natural identical? What percentage of the population normally has higher levels, therefore what do you expect from 34 people in the same training environment?

 

[Satan]

Chips take on it is of course very pro-Essendon. Doesn't mean anything. Expert says could be all sorts of reasons for elevated levels of TB4 in the blood. Which is true.

Only, they sampled urine, not blood. And of course, they may have been looking for the externally delivered synthetic version of TB4 rather than the naturally occurring peptide. But let's not look at that.

Its an evil ploy by news ltd to generate australian subscriptions so thats why Chip is being used

 

[Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods]

But if this is right no argument of duping will suffice. If people were duped as to it's legal status rather than what the substance actually was this is not a defence and, given the code's clear placement of responsibility on the athlete, I don't think it's terribly mitigating either

I think this would test those boundaries. I could understand if a player asked what it was, was told the actual name, asked if it was compliant, was told yes, then did no follow up research. If they could have checked the name out by googling it or going straight to ASADA and found that it was banned, but still used it, then they couldn't say they were duped, but if they are told that it's substance 'x' when it's actually substance 'y' and there's no way for them to verify it, short of taking a sample to get tested, I think they would have a case.

 

[compact72]

What is the normal level? How high were the levels in these samples? What else causes elevated levels? Are synthetic and natural identical? What percentage of the population normally has higher levels, therefore what do you expect from 34 people in the same training environment?

Take a read at this:

I'm not sure that one coulds ay 618 is a miniscule sample size. Clinical trials have been done with signifcantly fewer people.

The appropriate size of a study is generally calculated by reference to number of factors, including the levels of natural variation, the anticpated effect

It is fully accepted that when establishing a base line mean, more verifiable data is better than less verifiable data but a formals tudy looking at 618 people is certainly not going to count as chopped liver. It might give a feasible range from which one could identify statistical outliers (the narrow ends of the bell curve) but also results which are beyond this and might be regarded as abnormal. It may then warrant further investigation as to what might have prompted those abnormal results.

What is interesting though is that their has been mention of exercise, and injury recovery effecting TB4 levels, and possibly accounting for raised levels. I imagine that diet, age, lifestyle would also factor in. Luckily we have an albeit small (27) test sample of full time, professional athletes between the ages of presumably 19- 30, so we can take some ofthose variables out. It may be that the abnormal that the tests speak of is abnormal within the test group. That 25 were within anticpated ranges and 2 were not.

Purely as hypothetical conjecture at this point: If we assume that abnormally raised level will only show up if TB4 has been taken in the last 24 hours or as a result of the age lifestyle and physical activity of the subject. And we have 25 subjects with similar age and lifestyle profile who show no abnormaly raised profile, then...

Fact is, wed on't know the variables. We know little more than we did yesterday. But the fact that 2 of 27 showed high levels is not necessarily bad news for Essendon. The fact that 25 of 27 showed no abnormal levels is not necessarily good news.

 

[Chief]

The final question: how likely is it, with all of the other bits of evidence, that this isn't the result of doping?

 

[ziad]

Wow essondon took th4 ,well I never

next thing WADA will probably have a look at them

 

[compact72]

The final question: how likely is it, with all of the other bits of evidence, that this isn't the result of doping?

Here:

WADA seems to be of the view that the source of TB4 is exogenous in the elevated samples.

1) Exogenous TB4 peptide is in the active form (43 amino acids) and is produced either chemically or through fermentation in bacterial cells.

2) Endogenous TB4 peptide is produced in human cells from the cleavage of the pre-cursor form (44) into an active form (43) plus by-products (methionine). There are a number of isoforms (slightly different versions) able to be produced.

This would lead me to believe that WADA has developed at technique which can detect the difference between 1 & 2. If this can be proven to a scientific standard this would be a smoking gun for at least two players (and would allow the Commission if it so chose to push additional team doping penalties (it won't)).

WADA is of the view that 2 of the 27 samples are elevated. This could be very significant if the two elevated tests were shown to occur when certain events were occurring eg it coincided with the shipment from GL Biochem >Charters >Alavi > Dank and proposed injection timing. It would be even more interesting if the same players were tested twice and shown to be positive at a certain point in time (during Dank regime) and negative at another time (pre or post Dank regime). Further building blocks in the circumstantial case.

I would think that WADA will be testing for the presence of other molecules in the urine such as those on consent forms, on the charge sheet and seeking access to any additional samples including blood stored in ASADA's repository.

Jimmie Hird and EFC saying they are not nervous or worried is just spin.

Hindsight is great but doesn't a Cronulla-like penalty back in 2013 seem like a dream scenario had the bombers accepted it compared to the strategy they have pursued!

PS There is still 5 year window to retest any of these samples using new techniques.

I don't believe the type of TB4 Acetate alleged to have been used does occur naturally - all this talk of levels is crap.
There is no "normal" level for TB4 Acetate - it just shouldn't be there.

From the paper I posted earlier ;
"Ac-Tβ4(17-23) corresponds to the acetyl derivative of the major actin-binding site of Tβ4, that has been shown to promote angiogenesis, wound healing and hair growth in vitro and in animal models.[13] Therefore, the plausible rationale for use of TB-500 in doping lies in the role of Ac-Tβ4(17–23) in tissue growth and regeneration, which can be particularly important for recovery after intense workout or competition. The non-acetylated form of the peptide has been detected in vivo as an endogenous degradation product of Tβ4,[13] whereas the acetylated form is not described. N-terminal acetylation is a common strategy in drug development of peptides to increase the half-life, and therefore the activity, of peptides.[14] This acetylation should allow for a clear differentiation between endogenous and exogenous Tβ4 in biological samples, although metabolic deacetylation should be investigated. The absence of reference standards for most of the black market peptides, including Ac-Tβ4(17-23), presents a problem in doping control concerning the fulfillment of compound identification criteria. Moreover, some of these products contain different ingredients as officially claimed in the product description These differences include amino acid substitution, truncation, or other chemical modifications. Additionally, due to the lack of information on pharmacokinetic properties of this peptide and the ethical impossibility to administer these unknown preparations to healthy volunteers, its urinary or serum detection can generally only be postulated."

And from the article in the Age ;
"WADA said the samples from two players suggest external administration"