WADA finds high tb4 levels in Bombers pair.

[threesixpio]

This of course relies on the assumption that statements made by the accused are compelling evidence.

Which is a very large assumption.

34 (and maybe more with staff) potentially corroborating statements?

 

[tesla1962]

They weren't concerned because they weren't sure about what was in the shipment. There has been no testing or consideration of the player testimony at least with respect to any rulings by a tribunal.

Let's say the players all rock up to Alavi's shortly after he compounds the substance in the shipment. They all take what they're told is Thymosin. They all report side effects typically associated with Thymosin Beta 4. The evidence shows that at least two players took TB4.

Strong circumstancial evidence for the others given the Tribunal also found it was NOT TA-1 or Thymodullin

Still just speculation.
On one hand we have you saying that EFC paid big dosh to have the players testimonies quashed.
On the other hand we have another poster saying the players testimomies wrt clear and bronze vials may not be compelling.
Seems to be all guesswork depending on which side of the fence you are on.

 

[threesixpio]

Still just speculation
On one hand we have you saying that EFC paid big dosh to have the players testimonies thrown out
On the other hand we have another poster saying the players testimomies wrt clear and bronze vials may not be compelling
Seems to be all guesswork depending on which side of the fence you are on

Footy on can't multi task

 

[threesixpio]

Still just speculation
On one hand we have you saying that EFC paid big dosh to have the players testimonies thrown out
On the other hand we have another poster saying the players testimomies wrt clear and bronze vials may not be compelling
Seems to be all guesswork depending on which side of the fence you are on

I have no idea what was in the player testimony.

 

[tesla1962]

I have no idea what was in the player testimony.

That was kinda my point and what flows from that is that it is no certainty that EFC went to court expressly because they were afraid of the player testimonies as you suggested - all guesswork for mine

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I hear you mate, and we are only being drip fed dots to join.

The fact that no athlete has been busted for TB4 before and until this info, no test was available must carry some weight.

Obviously us foamers see it as a key breakthrough or a smoking gun if you will, while you bunch can brush it aside as point scoring from an incompetent authorised body.

And as you well know, whatever my views are or what I post, is in no way aimed at you or your fellow EFC posters.

I respect your standing on this issue as misguided as it seems to me.

Surely, since 2000 and whatever, ASADA would have more than just the one urine sample from these guys??

May be the reason only two had abnormal TB4 levels is that WADA had access to two seperate samples from these two?

 

[the PILL]

Surely, since 2000 and whatever, ASADA would have more than just the one urine sample from these guys??

May be the reason only two had abnormal TB4 levels is that WADA had access to two seperate samples from these two?

I highly doubt that they have a datum line for TB4 yet as it has only recently been tendered just before the scandal broke that HGH was able to be tested for... a fragmented endogenous substance is still very debatable... this is why the WADA statement is so confusing for both sides...

Couple that with the fact that tb4 was legal the year before so why would anyone posess a datum line of low high medium levels...

 

[sonnywalters]

I thought Hirdy spoke well there. Unfortunately, as we know, injuries are a big part of football - or any sport for that matter. We did have our fair share of injuries (bad luck), and probably haven't recovered all that well. But on that upside, we still have a strong leader, and a great club. EFC will bounce back from this. It (saga/witch hunt) is a minor setback, it will only make the journey back to the top - all the sweeter. #standbyhird.

This could be the most deluded, Kool-Aid drenched post in BigFooty history. And that is saying something.

 

[sonnywalters]

what makes you say that?

The way I've heard several afl/sports journos laugh about his ineptitude. Both before and after the drug scandal broke.

I dont think Simon is any smarter either.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I highly doubt that they have a datum line for TB4 yet as it has only recently been tendered just before the scandal broke that HGH was able to be tested for... a fragmented endogenous substance is still very debatable... this is why the WADA statement is so confusing for both sides...

Couple that with the fact that tb4 was legal the year before so why would anyone posess a datum line of low high medium levels...

So I presume they don't freeze all samples? (Genuine question)

 

[the PILL]

So I presume they don't freeze all samples? (Genuine question)

Who would bloody know... bodies seem reactive to cases and everyone/anyone that might know always talk in riddles...

Edit: It could very well be why Dank was so cocky all along... knowing such a line needs to be established after something becomes prohibited for such a substance... ie, he knew all along a threshold needed to be established first...

 

[tesla1962]

The way I've heard several afl/sports journos laugh about his ineptitude. Both before and after the drug scandal broke.

Haha that really is some kind of dumb, now we are basing our view of someone's intelligence on what some AFL 'journos' laugh about. First, I am not surprised you would actually put any faith in the current crop of AFL journos, most wouldn't btw. Second, is it too much for you to work out these things yourself?

 

[blackshadow]

Haha that really is some kind of dumb, now we are basing our view of someone's intelligence on what some AFL 'journos' laugh about. First, I am not surprised you would actually put any faith in the current crop of AFL journos, most wouldn't btw. Second, is it too much for you to work out these things yourself?

I have no words.

But you have my sympathy.

 

[Laphroaig]

34 (and maybe more with staff) potentially corroborating statements?

That's another large assumption. In fact several large assumptions.

 

[threesixpio]

That's another large assumption. In fact several large assumptions.

My point is your argument about the weakness of a single confession is not terribly useful here. There is a great number of witness statements. If there is a consistent set of facts which corroborate from a number of statements I would argue that this would be pretty strong evidence.

Re the above being some crazy assumption - really? A whole lot of blokes were likely doing the same thing and witnessing the same things at the same place around the same time. You ask enough people what happened you get reasonably close to establishing some facts.

Sure there are some "ifs" here - but the "ifs" are nowhere near as big as some of you are suggesting.

 

[jenny61_99]

My point is your argument about the weakness of a single confession is not terribly useful here. There is a great number of witness statements. If there is a consistent set of facts which corroborate from a number of statements I would argue that this would be pretty strong evidence.

Re the above being some crazy assumption - really? A whole lot of blokes were likely doing the same thing and witnessing the same things at the same place around the same time. You ask enough people what happened you get reasonably close to establishing some facts.

Sure there are some "ifs" here - but the "ifs" are nowhere near as big as some of you are suggesting.

So, we all tell the same story and we'll be jake?

 

[oldgriffin]

I don't think you can say it that definitively. It may well do, but by all accounts the "norm" for tb4 is very hard to establish. Until we know more about what this "abnormally high" reading means you are silly trying to claim definitive conclusions frankly. This argument that the "synthetic version is proof of exogenous" is a bit suspect for mine. Reason being, that may well be the case (even though I'm not convinced), but this isn't a test for tb4, it's an assessment of a combination of markers and I have yet to see anything even remotely suggesting it is sophisticated enough to determine which part of the molecule it is referencing, or whether it's synthetic or not

You've become an expert in this field very quickly!
The part of the molecule they are referencing is, N-acetylated LKKTETQ, the tell-tale of exogenous TB4/TB500 use.

This is an area that has been worked on by real scientists with very sophisticated instrumentation for quite a few years backed up with considerable funding. Synthetic peptides were recognised as a threat to the integrity of the racing industry a long time ago.
Don't mistake this as a new area of research with the aim of busting the Bombers!
More likely they are working on adapting the methods to the frozen samples from the players.

One of the impediments which a few of the papers mention is the lack of available data because of the ethical concerns of injecting healthy volunteers with unknown peptides. The footy media and co. have done a great job with selling the "nothing harmful was injected routine" but this won't be known for many years. I certainly wouldn't like to be one of the players that may have had all this crap filtering through their bodies!

Here's another peer reviewed paper on the technology involved.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ma_by_liquid_chromatography-mass_spectrometry

And Essendon even get a mention in the presentation of this research at the prestigious "Peptides 2013" conference;
http://peptides-2013.m.asnevents.com.au/schedule/session/1055/abstract/6933

 

[Lance Uppercut]

You've become an expert in this field very quickly!
The part of the molecule they are referencing is, N-acetylated LKKTETQ, the tell-tale of exogenous TB4/TB500 use.

This is an area that has been worked on by real scientists with very sophisticated instrumentation for quite a few years backed up with considerable funding. Synthetic peptides were recognised as a threat to the integrity of the racing industry a long time ago.
Don't mistake this as a new area of research with the aim of busting the Bombers!
More likely they are working on adapting the methods to the frozen samples from the players.

One of the impediments which a few of the papers mention is the lack of available data because of the ethical concerns of injecting healthy volunteers with unknown peptides. The footy media and co. have done a great job with selling the "nothing harmful was injected routine" but this won't be known for many years. I certainly wouldn't like to be one of the players that may have had all this crap filtering through their bodies!

Here's another peer reviewed paper on the technology involved.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ma_by_liquid_chromatography-mass_spectrometry

And Essendon even get a mention in the presentation of this research at the prestigious "Peptides 2013" conference;
http://peptides-2013.m.asnevents.com.au/schedule/session/1055/abstract/6933

Thanks I'll do some reading!

 

[Muggs]

Here's another peer reviewed paper on the technology involved.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ma_by_liquid_chromatography-mass_spectrometry

And Essendon even get a mention in the presentation of this research at the prestigious "Peptides 2013" conference;
http://peptides-2013.m.asnevents.com.au/schedule/session/1055/abstract/6933

Are these two not basically the same paper? Looks like the good of researchers trick of increasing publications by doing the working paper, conference presentation than getting it peer reviewed, few tweaks between each rendition, and swap the lead author around...

 

[threesixpio]

Thanks I'll do some reading!

Nyerd

 

[Gavstar]

You've become an expert in this field very quickly!
The part of the molecule they are referencing is, N-acetylated LKKTETQ, the tell-tale of exogenous TB4/TB500 use.

This is an area that has been worked on by real scientists with very sophisticated instrumentation for quite a few years backed up with considerable funding. Synthetic peptides were recognised as a threat to the integrity of the racing industry a long time ago.
Don't mistake this as a new area of research with the aim of busting the Bombers!
More likely they are working on adapting the methods to the frozen samples from the players.

One of the impediments which a few of the papers mention is the lack of available data because of the ethical concerns of injecting healthy volunteers with unknown peptides. The footy media and co. have done a great job with selling the "nothing harmful was injected routine" but this won't be known for many years. I certainly wouldn't like to be one of the players that may have had all this crap filtering through their bodies!

Here's another peer reviewed paper on the technology involved.
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ma_by_liquid_chromatography-mass_spectrometry

And Essendon even get a mention in the presentation of this research at the prestigious "Peptides 2013" conference;
http://peptides-2013.m.asnevents.com.au/schedule/session/1055/abstract/6933

Nice finds looks pretty damning if there is a zero presence of exogenous in enough normal human urine samples, some have been pushing TB4 elevation after injuries (Chip and Slobbo) but again this should be separable on the N-acetylation.

Gerard Whately loves his racehorses someone should tweet this to him.

 

[Satan]

Nice finds looks pretty damning if there is a zero presence of exogenous in enough normal human urine samples, some have been pushing TB4 elevation after injuries (Chip and Slobbo) but again this should be separable on the N-acetylation.

Gerard Whately loves his racehorses someone should tweet this to him.

Gerard wants to keep his job at fox ( half owned by news ltd) he is unlikely to be intrested .
Inb4 Satan is cynical

 

[TigerTime3]

Lol at the people who 'disagree' with a positive sample.

 

[Laphroaig]

My point is your argument about the weakness of a single confession is not terribly useful here. There is a great number of witness statements. If there is a consistent set of facts which corroborate from a number of statements I would argue that this would be pretty strong evidence.

Re the above being some crazy assumption - really? A whole lot of blokes were likely doing the same thing and witnessing the same things at the same place around the same time. You ask enough people what happened you get reasonably close to establishing some facts.

Sure there are some "ifs" here - but the "ifs" are nowhere near as big as some of you are suggesting.

You misunderstand me.

What is the source of the contentions: A. The TB4 was in bronze vials, and B. Nobody involved "recalls" seeing them?

Was that question in fact ever asked? If so, who says the question was asked? Who is said to have asked it? How many of the 34 + people involved were asked?

Or is it actually a case of "somebody said" that the TB4 was in bronze vials and went on to say there is no record of the players stating they saw bronze vials. Or indeed stating that they DIDN'T see them.

And then If we are satisfied by the answers to all of those questions. We finally get to "Did these people have reason to believe that the answer might incriminate them?"

 

[Broken_Chairs]

You misunderstand me.

What is the source of the contentions: A. The TB4 was in bronze vials, and B. Nobody involved "recalls" seeing them?

Was that question in fact ever asked? If so, who says the question was asked? Who is said to have asked it? How many of the 34 + people involved were asked?

Or is it actually a case of "somebody said" that the TB4 was in bronze vials and went on to say there is no record of the players stating they saw bronze vials. Or indeed stating that they DIDN'T see them.

And then If we are satisfied by the answers to all of those questions. We finally get to "Did these people have reason to believe that the answer might incriminate them?"

i've taken a bunch of medicine during my life, ****ed if i could recall the packaging/bottle colour of any of them