We will never be a decent side with

[The Donners]

Rance is among the most promising KPDs in the league not to have played 50 games, and is playing very well given his support. I would be spewing if we lost him.

I too think he'll be quality. Think maybe he might be more valuable as a third tall in defense (in a perfect world)?

 

[TimeFor11]

****ing deplorable summations of players in this thread absolute drivel coming from your keyboards for the most part.

Grigg - He finds the pill but hasn't been finishing of his work in past week and can question his accountability. However he is AFL standard.

Houli - I have seen all these good player comments and keep because he is such good kick. So am I when under no pressure but just like him I would squib it out there with the big fellas, I am not going to hate him for it but I am not going to support his selection as a backman.

Edwards - Bad kick? Go watch the game and review each kick, there is a reason the coaching staff love him and its because he takes risks with his kicks and sets up offensive chains with his vision often. Yes he is prone to a shank as he did last night but they all are.

Anyone thinking Rance isn't in our top 5 players this season aint gotta clue.

 

[Spagman]

maybe Fev is up for a game?

 

[KeilorUnder9s]

Two days later and I stand by the players I pointed out. As for the people fingering Rance as being no good, our points against would be even worse if not for him he puts in 110% and when he has support through drafting / trading will become a great backmen. I would love to see Rance, Grimes, Kel Moore, Batchelor, Newman and Jackson Trengove as our back six next year.

 

[Doobie]

****ing deplorable summations of players in this thread absolute drivel coming from your keyboards for the most part.

Grigg - He finds the pill but hasn't been finishing of his work in past week and can question his accountability. However he is AFL standard.

Houli - I have seen all these good player comments and keep because he is such good kick. So am I when under no pressure but just like him I would squib it out there with the big fellas, I am not going to hate him for it but I am not going to support his selection as a backman.

Edwards - Bad kick? Go watch the game and review each kick, there is a reason the coaching staff love him and its because he takes risks with his kicks and sets up offensive chains with his vision often. Yes he is prone to a shank as he did last night but they all are.

Anyone thinking Rance isn't in our top 5 players this season aint gotta clue.

mate edwards gives a way three goals a game with his bad kicking not good enough

 

[pebblestone]

Edwards is the one we trade to land McIntosh or Trengrove & Foley as well if it means getting both.But i rate Foley & admire what he has fought though being a rookie & his injuries.But the bigger more ruthless picture needs to be looked at.

McIntosh is the worst idea around re. our ruck problems. Too old and injuries a constant issue. Trengove would be a great pickup IMO because he fits the age bracket and could fill CHB going forward, and it's clear that we can't rely on Thursfield or McGuane to perform to any reasonable standard consistently. Would not want to give up Foley though. Our midfield doesn't have the depth to lose him.

 

[santa claws]

Edwards is the one we trade to land McIntosh or Trengrove & Foley as well if it means getting both.But i rate Foley & admire what he has fought though being a rookie & his injuries.But the bigger more ruthless picture needs to be looked at.

your kidding arent ya edwards only has value to very deluded richmond supporters.
realistically if we want trengove or mcintosh we will be giving up a player of genuine quality which sort of defeats the purpose when you have so few of genuine quality, the idea is to build on what decent players we do have not tread water or go backwards.
the other option is to trade early picks.if we do that the player we trade for had damn well better be a ten yr player for us or all we will be doing is repeat the mistakes of the past.

better we all get it into our heads we are in no position to trade for big name players,not uless they do the dirty on their existing club. we are locked into youth for another few yrs and we had better be patient enough to put up with the low finishes that this will mean. we wont significantly improve loading up with more youth in the short term we wont significantly improve until a significant amount of our up to afl standard players get around the 100 game mark

to me the only way older players should/will come to the club is with late picks rookie psd. thats just where we are at atm.
i have to ask do we ignore lets say and lets get it straight its only hypothetical ben hudson is delisted by wb. do we take him as an upgrade and short term fix that will enable cotchin and martin etc to be more competetive. lets say m warnock walks out of melb do we take him psd or late nd, the possibilities are endless with lots of big bodied players not getting games . we did similar with miller but hudson warnock would give us actual positional improvement, yes they would be upgrades on what we have while we develop others.

the key would obviously be we utilise our early nd picks on kids and thus ensure we cater to the long term, those picks could well be 10 27 our adelaide pick in the 20s somewhere 44 thats 4 decent picks on kids and the long term future.
i would like the club to find a way to trade into a second or third rnd pick as well giving us 5 picks in the top 50 odd.
clean out the rookie list yes actually make a decision on those rookies and go again.
we will invest in a lot of kids again or should, but can we invest in older players as long as those older players are upgrades on those we get rid of.i think so.
the whole idea is to continually raise the standard of the entire list raise the bar if you like.
if we replace an ordinary player with an average player its an improvment sometimes to get to where you want you take small steps we do what we need to do to keep raiising the bar.one thing for sure we want our kids to be able to compete to do that they need experience size and structure around them.

anyway theres some ammo for posters to have a go im sure they will.

 

[pebblestone]

S Grigg - Shows glimpses. one more year to see if he can begin to produce consistently.
B Houli - Defensive deficiencies make me think he'd be better suited to a link position on the wing/HF as he is a dangerous kick. Plenty of real backs to come back into the team.
S Edwards - Can play but coughs it up too often trying to do the impossible.
W Thursfield - Looked like being a gun but far from it. Trade if we can get anything for him.
T Hislop - needs to show something pretty special IMO
L McGuane - Trade if we can get anything for him
D Jackson - Something is not right with Jacko ATM. Never super fast but he is really lacking pace right now and it is hurting his performance.
J King - Can lift the whole team although not great form ATM. Must stay though. Can't get rid of the one played who you know will have a dip.

 

[cairo tiger]

these blokes in our best 22:

S Grigg
B Houli
S Edwards
W Thursfield
T Hislop
L McGuane
D Jackson
J King


Also let Deledio go to GWS for picks he has won plenty of B&F's we will get overs for him. I have held my tongue for the last 5-6 weeks but tonight we completely gave up again (See B Houli in the pocket with Crameri).

As a side note it is definately time for Clanger Newman to pass the captaincy to Cotchin.

I agree with all your said except your last sentence.

 

[Dusty Cotch]

your kidding arent ya edwards only has value to very deluded richmond supporters.

No not at all, Edward's would find a home in a side that is looking for an outside runner.
Who would have thought Adelaide would take Tambling off our hands & give us a 1st round pick!
We need to trade for a established ruckman to be competitive & for the development of cotch,martin etc.
Jackson would be another i would use to get a deal done.

 

[Tiges24_8]

bottom line, all those players have weaknesses that can be fixed with time, as they are all relatively young. And yes we are still building. We have a younger side than gold coast. and we show how good we can be with the young list we have. I feel sorry for chris newman, he will retiring, or at the end of his career, as we begin to play consistent finals footy.

 

[juss]

these blokes in our best 22:

S Grigg
B Houli
S Edwards
W Thursfield
T Hislop
L McGuane
D Jackson
J King


Also let Deledio go to GWS for picks he has won plenty of B&F's we will get overs for him. I have held my tongue for the last 5-6 weeks but tonight we completely gave up again (See B Houli in the pocket with Crameri).

As a side note it is definately time for Clanger Newman to pass the captaincy to Cotchin.

S Grigg: Needs to be upgraded, handy depth player at best. Would get a game at some sides (bottom 8) but will hopefully lose his spot to better players.

B Houli: He can play. Offers a good kick coming from defence. Keep for another year, reassess end of 2012.

S Edwards: Trade/delist. Skills aren't good enough. Doesn't just shank the odd kick, a lot of players do that, he shanks really easy, under no pressure kicks, often at crucial times/positions on the ground. Iron out this flaw and he's a keeper, but he hasn't yet.

W Thursfield: Depth defender, not best 22 but can come in and do a role when injury hits, as it has now. Wouldn't be against him being shown the door though.

T Hislop: Will only ever be a good-very good VFL player. He's poor - average at best in the AFL.

L McGuane: Needs to be upgraded, but he's in our best 22. Probably only behind Rance, Grimes and Astbury in the pecking order down back.

D Jackson: Best 22 at the moment, but for us to improve we need people to overtake him. Wouldn't get a game in many top 8 midfields. Keep for now, reasses next year.

J King: Essential to our side. Offers something that no one else does at the moment. Keep. Every premiership side needs these types of players. Isn't flashy or the most talented footballer, but jeez his pressure, chasing and tackling is crucial to a sides defensive game.

Trading Deledio would be stupid at this stage. Only reason you would trade him is if he really wanted to go and was going to potentially walk out. He won't.

Cotchin will be captain one day, when he's ready. No need to rush it onto him. He's still working on a few areas of his game, needs to improve his set shot kicking, and to a lesser degree goal kicking in general. Let him work on his game to the fullest, be the best he can be without the pressure of captaincy yet. I reckon he'l be skipper in 2013.

 

[aislegi]

When do you think we're going to play "consistent finals footy"?

 

[Parquet Court]

When do you think we're going to play "consistent finals footy"?

optimistically i would say that 2013 could be the start of consistent finals appearances but the realist / pessimist would have to say 2014/15.

the thing is a lot can happen in football but when it comes to richmond usually the worst possible scenario seems to play out, its an elephant graveyard for mid-tier players go to. players show a bit at 18s level or state leagues then come to richmond and their football dies.

 

[aislegi]

optimistically i would say that 2013 could be the start of consistent finals appearances but the realist / pessimist would have to say 2014/15.

I suspected your answer would be something like this. Unfortunately, it's not an answer that I really understand. By saying it's possibly three or four years away, this implies that, in all likelihood, we only have a fraction of the players that we would actually need. The thing I don't get, therefore, is why people think we will actually get those players.

 

[pebblestone]

Fair enough but some of us are still optimistic about what is coming rather than resigning ourselves to mediocrity because it's just too hard to get a good list. Look at Collingwood just a few years ago. Players like Dawes, Leigh Brown, Wellingham, Toovey didn't look like much but have been developed brilliantly and now are crucial to the reigning premiers.

Tim Clarke has a big job ahead of him but he is a very switched on guy and I believe he will do a solid job with our young talent.

 

[Parquet Court]

I suspected your answer would be something like this. Unfortunately, it's not an answer that I really understand. By saying it's possibly three or four years away, this implies that, in all likelihood, we only have a fraction of the players that we would actually need. The thing I don't get, therefore, is why people think we will actually get those players.

the optimist is the person who thinks that our current list is not all that bad and may develop at a rate of knots end of this season and next season and not just the bona fide guns already, im talking fringe players like nahas, grigg, houli, grimes, astbury, post, griffiths, batchelor come along rapidly and provide us with a spine of 12 or so players who can hold their own week in week out.

the final 10 spots are replaced by role players, see toovey for collingwood or leigh brown. combined with this our high possession corridor footy game plan starts breaking through pressess

the pessimist in this is that only 2 or 3 of the aforementioned come on as expected, we are only left with a core nucleus of 6 or so players doing the job well week in week out. we are having to turn over multiple 2-4 year players who just havent been able to make the impact at AFL level.

i think i jumped the gun before where i said the pessimist was perhaps the realist, its so hard to tell, improvement can come from no where. we have a good nucleus of 4 or 5 players who are team can be built around but its that next 6 or so players that need to do it as well.

we cant have 16 role players.

 

[aislegi]

Fair enough, but there have been plenty of times in the last few decades when, at any given time, we have had some very good players in the side (eg. Knights and Richardson) and I just don't see how where we are at the moment is really better or worse than where we have been in the past, or why the future will necessarily be any better than the past. Often we have gotten to a point and then dropped off a cliff again.

 

[Damo80]

It's not only about the players and their natural talent or lack there-of. I reckon Malthouse has been able to squeeze the best out of a list that looked just OK this time 3 years ago. Sure, they had Swan, but beyond that, which players would you rate as "superstars". Fast forward 2 years down the track, and half their list looks like AFL guns. I reckon that has far more to do with discipline, game plan and good coaches developing, and extracting the best out of every player... it's why a first gamer can come in and look like a legitimate AFL ready player.

There are signs that the "Dimma era" could become something similar - you can see there is structure, discipline, and the players know there is a clear plan. It will just take time and experience for it to come together.... and a handful of quality players coming into the side over the next few years wouldn't hurt, either.

 

[rammbo]

your kidding arent ya edwards only has value to very deluded richmond supporters.
realistically if we want trengove or mcintosh we will be giving up a player of genuine quality which sort of defeats the purpose when you have so few of genuine quality, the idea is to build on what decent players we do have not tread water or go backwards.
the other option is to trade early picks.if we do that the player we trade for had damn well better be a ten yr player for us or all we will be doing is repeat the mistakes of the past.

better we all get it into our heads we are in no position to trade for big name players,not uless they do the dirty on their existing club. we are locked into youth for another few yrs and we had better be patient enough to put up with the low finishes that this will mean. we wont significantly improve loading up with more youth in the short term we wont significantly improve until a significant amount of our up to afl standard players get around the 100 game mark

to me the only way older players should/will come to the club is with late picks rookie psd. thats just where we are at atm.
i have to ask do we ignore lets say and lets get it straight its only hypothetical ben hudson is delisted by wb. do we take him as an upgrade and short term fix that will enable cotchin and martin etc to be more competetive. lets say m warnock walks out of melb do we take him psd or late nd, the possibilities are endless with lots of big bodied players not getting games . we did similar with miller but hudson warnock would give us actual positional improvement, yes they would be upgrades on what we have while we develop others.

the key would obviously be we utilise our early nd picks on kids and thus ensure we cater to the long term, those picks could well be 10 27 our adelaide pick in the 20s somewhere 44 thats 4 decent picks on kids and the long term future.
i would like the club to find a way to trade into a second or third rnd pick as well giving us 5 picks in the top 50 odd.
clean out the rookie list yes actually make a decision on those rookies and go again.
we will invest in a lot of kids again or should, but can we invest in older players as long as those older players are upgrades on those we get rid of.i think so.
the whole idea is to continually raise the standard of the entire list raise the bar if you like.
if we replace an ordinary player with an average player its an improvment sometimes to get to where you want you take small steps we do what we need to do to keep raiising the bar.one thing for sure we want our kids to be able to compete to do that they need experience size and structure around them.

anyway theres some ammo for posters to have a go im sure they will.

 

[YearOfTheCotch10]

I'm usually pretty optimistic about the Tigers but I guess the last 3 or so weeks has shown how far away our list is from realistically playing in finals. We rely on too few players and put plain and simply dont have the depth to compete with most teams over 4 quaters and this is the reason we dont put together 4 quater efforts regularly enough. We have a core group of 10-12 players (mostly still relatively inexperienced though) that I believe are truly up to at the moment and then another 6-7 that could potentially become part of that group. These players have to be rolled over at seasons end:
Connors - ill disciplined, no defensive game and doesnt play the team footy that will make a great side
Farmer - not quick enough to play on the top small forwards and although has a lovely kick doesnt find enough of the ball
Thursfield - been given enugh chances and younger players with more potential have surpassed him
White - Been on the list since 2004 and hasnt made it at any stage, holding on to players like this is what will hold us back
Taylor - So much talent but again doesnt have the discipline to make the top level (hope he proves me wrong)
Nason - Has been playing well in the reserves, but too small and doesnt have the pace or footskills to make up for it
McGuane - Close to the worst footskills/decision making in the side, good negator but with the emergence of Rance and Grimes I dont think there is a place in the side for him
Hislop - Been given upteen chances and although brings grunt to the side doesnt have the complete game to make us a better team
Webberly - Could be given one more year to prove himself as I did think he was impressive last year, but seems to have lost form this year/gone out of favour as he seems to be languishing in the twos. Beautiful kick, but as a mature age recruit he has one season max to prove his worth

Then we have our trade bait which isnt much too be honest
Jackson - Waaaaaaaaay too slow in both decision making and footspeed, has ok skills and is tough but gets caught with the ball too often. If we can get something or use him as a sweetner for a deal then I would do it
Tuck - Apparently has already signed for GWS? a shame he hasnt played this year as he could really solve the issue surrounding our lack of clearances
Nahas - Had an outstanding season this year so far and has also been linked with GWS. Cant see him improving on this season and we should cash him in now so that we can recieve overs for him
Connors - May have some trade value (3rd round pick or sweetner in a deal) if a club thinks they can straighten him out and make the most of his talent
Edwards - Im a big fan of Edwards, love the way he takes the game on, but his execution at times is poor. An adelaide boy and has some real upside if his kicking can be straightened out, but if someone comes knocking like adelaide with Tambling last year then I say take it and run. Edwards plus our second round pick for Daniel Talia??
Foley - As much as I love the bloke and would hate to see him go sometimes you have to give something good to get something good. As good as he is though he does have his deficencies and if someone was prepared to give the right price then Id say take it. Could be our way to access the 17 year old O'Meara from GWS ?

We have a lot of holes in our list at the moment, but not many teams have players of Reiwoldt, Cotchin, Martin, Deledio, Vickery and Rances class to build a team around so its not all doom and gloom. Remember we have a younger team than the Gold Coast this year!! I know its hard to ask of many of you older blokes who have had sustained periods without success but be patient with this group there is some real talent.

 

[Colonel Matrix]

Foley, Edwards and Jackson have trade value, that's about it.

I love Edwards, but agree with a lot of the comments about his poor foot skills - hopefully that's something the skills coaches can rectify?

 

[bollo]

We will never be a decent side with...

Edwards- Too small and turns the ball over more often than not
Rance- If we are pinning our hopes on him we are in trouble, has poor decision making, turns it over too much to be on the last line in defence
Mcguane- Again turns it over and has no decision making skills to be on the last line
Grigg- Doesn't do the hard yards and for a guy who doesnt hit targets has no purpose in the team, carlton weren't worried losing him
Houli- We need someone who can play defensive as well hit targets and not roll over and surrender because hes scared of contact, can see why knights didn't give him a game last year
Browne- How he is on an AFL list makes the mind boggle, Angus Graham looks like a premier ruckman compared to him i think hes the worst ruckman in the game and of all time. he has no impact on a game, takes no contested marks
Nahas- Too small and gets pushed out the way when we play teams with bigger bodies and he'll never get bigger
Conca- Cannot believe we took him pick 6, no where near as good as heppel
Hislop- Need i say anything
Post- soft

We need a ruckman- McIntosh and FB- Carlisle.
And to all the Deledio knockers we would be a far worse side without him, he puts his head over it, runs, doesn't drop marks and it's not his fault they play him at half back and put him behind the ball when the games in the balance, if he's not moved into the midfield he could be another wasted talent at Richmond. We're lucky he has stuck around as long as he has. Hardwick and the recruiters better build the list better this trade time coz they havn't done much other than martin

 

[MightyTiger]

We will never be a decent side with...

You lost me at Rance.

Rance- If we are pinning our hopes on him we are in trouble, has poor decision making, turns it over too much to be on the last line in defence

And then I saw this out the corner of my eye.

Conca- Cannot believe we took him pick 6, no where near as good as heppel

 

[Tiges24_8]

whoa whoa. its a bit early to be making calls on conca.