What did we do all Summer???

[CalWard Is Money]

Ok, so after three consecutive Prelim losses and an identified deficiency in leg speed and forward pressure, what exactly did we work on over the break? Because what I witnessed on Sunday was the continuation of a very disturbing trend.

To the forgiving souls out there who are already thinking to themselves "geez, it's only round one" this thread is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is something that i have been worried about since Round 20 of last season (seriously, Premiership contenders don't get beaten by over 100 points!!!).
I have analysed some recent data and things do not look good. If we can't reverse some of these obvious deficiencies then our hopes of finishing top2 are done.

The Forward Line:
Many in the media and on this board have been quick to pot our midfield but it was our lack of effort in the front half which was the most disturbing thing. Too many times the ball was waltzed out with ease and some of our blokes looked like they didn't want to be there.

In attempting to improve our defensive side as a unit we have lost the ability to really hurt sides on the scoreboard. What happened to the days when we would have blokes lining up to kick goals??? We were lethal a few years back and now we look impotent.

Check the following stats;

In 2008 we kicked 405 goals and had 13 players kick 10+ goals

In 2009 that figure dropped to 386 goals but still a healthy 15 players kicking 10+ goals

In 2010 we dropped again to 348 goals and only 10 blokes managed to kick 10+ goals.

What is even more disturbing is that we only had 6 individual goalkickers on the weekend(Collingwood had 13). "Only Round One, mate" I can hear you saying...well in the round 22 game against the same opponent last year we had just 5 individual goalkickers. The following week in the QF we had only 5 individual goalkickers. In the semi against the Swans we had 6 individual goalkickers and in the Prelim our measly 8 goal total was kicked by 7 individuals. The entire competition has adopted our strategy of a few years back of spreading the load yet we, bizarrely, have gone the other way...why?

Tackling in the forward line was identified as our biggest weakness last season and we supposedly took steps in the off-season to alleviate this. I saw no improvement whatsoever on Sunday. Sorry to bring up Collingwood again but they are the benchmark, on Saturday their two key forwards (Cloke & Dawes) and new crumber (Krakouer) laid an impressive 16 tackles between them. On Sunday our two key forwards (Hall & Grant) and new crumber (Djerrkurra) combined for ZERO tackles AND gave away 6 free kicks!!!

Jones and Grant did an ok job of presenting and trying to make a contest but these efforts of bringing the ball to ground become null and void if you don't have the right people crumbing. Higgins and Gia are too slow and we are getting exposed far too easily. Bomber Thompson had that smug look on his face in the coaches box like he knew exactly how to dismantle us and why wouldn't he??? Nothing HAS changed from when Geelong belted us in Round 20 last year.

My solutions are;

a) Play Murphy up front. We play our best footy when Bob is leading hard and fast up the middle and playing on quickly. He is great wherever he goes but he turned that Semi on it's head last year with his poise and balance. He straightens us up and is wasted down back.

b) Put Picken forward. He is quick, aggressive and lays 100 tackles a season, throw in that he has a knack of bobbing up and kicking a goal then why not at least try? He too is wasted in the back pocket. Bring Wallis in to do his job.

c) Sherman was recruited for a reason. His pace and touch around goals are exactly what we needed. In 2009 he kicked 30 goals and laid 97 tackles, again exactly what we need. Ridiculous to play him as a sub if he was underdone(as has been suggested elsewhere). We gave up a lot to get him, bloody play him.

d) Make Jones earn his red, white and blue jumper. The kid has a lot of upside but how about he shows some consistency at Willi before we give him the privilege of a guernsey.

e) drop Danny G. He has been a great servant but the game has passed him by. If it wasn't for a bit of individual brilliance from Higgins he wouldn't have got near the scoresheet on Sunday.

f) get Higgins closer to goal. He is getting so strong through the core and can take a grab. Stop trying to push him into the midfield when he is clearly a dangerous forward.

Rucks:

Ok so we have 6 months to plan for the Bombers, we have watched them all the way through to the NAB GF and the brains-trust come up with Hudson and T-Will to tackle their two giants???

Minson has had his best pre-season and has been good all summer and Roughead is a prodigious talent yet we CHOSE to go with a 32 yo warrior against two younger and more athletic ruckmen...what the???

I love Huddo and what he does but c'mon he can't do it by himself. Eade admitting they made a mistake makes it even worse. Remember the 6 p's Rocket, Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance!

Midfield:

What do Boyd, Cross, Ward and Libba all have in common...One has to go and it has to be the most one-dimensional...Crossy has been unbelievable but he is a liability out there now. He can't penetrate with his kicking, he is not quick and he does not hit the scoreboard. I understand that he is a massive part of where we have come from and the fabric of the club but geez so were Lockyer, Presti, O'Bree, Fraser and the likes at Collingwood. This competition is brutal and weaknesses get exposed, Crossy has a lot of weaknesses.

Defence:

Held up considerably well when you take into account that the Bombers had their most inside 50's in a match since the 2000 GF. Hargrave, Lake, Harbrow and Gilbee were all missing from the Prelim side too. Once these guys get back (minus Harbrow of course)and our forward line does its part then we will be solid again.

Sub:

Every man and his dog could see that Libba was spent in the second half yesterday yet Djerrkurra was the one subbed off??? Did i miss something...

I love what Rocket Eade has done for this club but his faith in players who have had a chance to deliver and failed not once, not twice but three times WILL be his undoing. Not making the hard call on Johnno, Aker, Eagle and Hahn after '09 cost us in 2010, which in effect is costing us now.

The AFL is a fiercely brutal comp and those that are happy enough to get close enough get left behind. I felt jealous watching the Bombers yesterday, playing with so much pride and hunger. It reminded me of us in 2006, young and plucky and wanting to take on the world...hunting.

 

[Fossie 32]

Re: WTF Did we do all Summer???

As we kicked only 8 goals it would have been hard to have more than 6 goalkickers. [Yes I know there could have been 8 ]


On the bright side, we can get better odds for the flag now.

 

[FishCreekBandit]

Re: WTF Did we do all Summer???

We have gone to hard to early in past seasons, i think the quicker sides will struggle towards the end of the season where we will be favored by the fact we have more a gut running midfield.Schofield could be added into the backline to gain some pass and we could see Skinner giving a shot a lot sooner then first thought.

 

[Libba39]

RE: Cross I think he just needs to play on ball permanently, not stuck out on a wing like he is at the moment where his weaknesses can be exposed. Get him in and under a pack instead otherwise yes, he will be a liability.

 

[Turtle]

My solutions are;

a) Play Murphy up front. We play our best footy when Bob is leading hard and fast up the middle and playing on quickly. He is great wherever he goes but he turned that Semi on it's head last year with his poise and balance. He straightens us up and is wasted down back.

b) Put Picken forward. He is quick, aggressive and lays 100 tackles a season, throw in that he has a knack of bobbing up and kicking a goal then why not at least try? He too is wasted in the back pocket. Bring Wallis in to do his job.

c) Sherman was recruited for a reason. His pace and touch around goals are exactly what we needed. In 2009 he kicked 30 goals and laid 97 tackles, again exactly what we need. Ridiculous to play him as a sub if he was underdone(as has been suggested elsewhere). We gave up a lot to get him, bloody play him.



quote]

Agree with all of these

 

[TempleKelvington]

Yep....it's round one....we lost....we lost last year also by a lot. So yes after each loss we panic a bit on here. While I agree there are some issues with form and selection and match day tactics it's not all doom a gloom just yet. Week is a long time in footy....we will bounce back with solid wins in the next 2 weeks...Lake will be back...Cooney fitter and the MC might have got there bad one out of the way for the year.

I agree with most of what was said to start this thread. I would love to see Murphy playing forward again, but I'm not sure his body can take it. I'd rather him out there off half back than injured again.

For some reason most on here don't think Grant should be CHF because he's not big enough.....but Murphy is? Nup Grant is perfect in todays footy as the lead up CHF and should be doing it, not Jones at this stage.

 

[DognBones]

Thanks for the effort and passion you out into your OP. There's not too much wrong with any of what you wrote.
Agree with TK on Murphy though - think his body is a bit brittle for key forward status anymore.
I'd like to think that Round 1 was all about Eade's experimentation (Plan B) and that just about all of it didn't work. Hopefully and importantly he has a strong Plan A. The next few weeks will tell but that may be too generous. We may have lost a couple of hundred grand in memberships on Sunday and we need to belt Brisbane to lure all those fringe members back into the fold.

Thoughtful post Cal.

 

[Libba39]

Thanks for the effort and passion you out into your OP. There's not too much wrong with any of what you wrote.
Agree with TK on Murphy though - think his body is a bit brittle for key forward status anymore.
I'd like to think that Round 1 was all about Eade's experimentation (Plan B) and that just about all of it didn't work. Hopefully and importantly he has a strong Plan A. The next few weeks will tell but that may be too generous. We may have lost a couple of hundred grand in memberships on Sunday and we need to belt Brisbane to lure all those fringe members back into the fold.

Thoughtful post Cal.

Good point. This is what annoys be about all these posters going on about how 'it's only round one' etc etc. They fail to see the ongoing effects of these kinds of demoralising losses. Unfortunately because we played so poorly those fringe members won't turn up because they think 'same old bulldogs again this year', why bother. It's a sad fact but it's true and we will be lucky to scrape together 25K in attendance at this game, not to mention new membership sales grinding to an early halt.

 

[minters]

Ok, so after three consecutive Prelim losses and an identified deficiency in leg speed and forward pressure, what exactly did we work on over the break? Because what I witnessed on Sunday was the continuation of a very disturbing trend.

To the forgiving souls out there who are already thinking to themselves "geez, it's only round one" this thread is not a knee-jerk reaction. It is something that i have been worried about since Round 20 of last season (seriously, Premiership contenders don't get beaten by over 100 points!!!).
I have analysed some recent data and things do not look good. If we can't reverse some of these obvious deficiencies then our hopes of finishing top2 are done.

[
One of the most insightful posts I have read in a very long time... Loved every word and extremely impressed with your tactical alternatives... The problem isn't only that we lost, it's about showing what the team represents and based on that performance it was extremely disppointing. Scraping into a top 4 position again in '11, isn't how we're meant to do it... We've done that before and it hasn't worked... What it showed on the weekend is that we're in for a long season... A good team shows its intentions from the outset... Collingwood, Geelong, Brisbane etc... did that in their premiership years.... What did we do??? I know it's round 1 but c'mon guys, you need to remember, we've had a few years of this....

These teams all had players that knew their roles and played for the team and perhaps coaching staff... Perhaps the messaging has grown tired?? Perhaps it's all more of the same??? We'll see. I just hope that the excitement we get from this year isn't focused on the appointment of a new coach.....

 

[cosmicr]

Scraping into a top 4 position again in '11, isn't how we're meant to do it... We've done that before and it hasn't worked... What it showed on the weekend is that we're in for a long season... A good team shows its intentions from the outset... Collingwood, Geelong, Brisbane etc... did that in their premiership years....

not disagreeing with your point, but Geelong lost their round 1 game in 2007. I remember it well cos johnno kicked 8.

 

[Rocketsurgery]

I completely agree with virtually every point you made. The drop in goals scored and lack of contributors is a big problem that needs to be addressed quickly. I think it's a combination of change in game plan and the loss of several players that consistantly scored goals over the years, namely Johnson, Akermanis, Eagleton and Hahn. The decline in form of these players last year due to age and injury had a significant impact on our avenues to goal. Thank goodness for Hall and the emergence of Jarryd Grant.

I agree that we miss Muprhy in the forward line. We miss his ability to lead out from goal, take a mark, turn his defender and plant a pass on another forwards chest. He used to kick a couple a game as well. I suspect they moved him to defence because his body was struggling.

The game has definately caught up with Cross and Gia. Cross is just too slow and the quality of his disposal has suffered severely in recent times because he doesn't posses the burst of speed necessary to find space. Gia's defensive pressure has never been a strong point. And with defensive pressure becoming such an important factor his lack of pace and toughness are really being exposed.

I know a lot of people on this forum like Liam Jones but he's just not capable of playing senior football at the moment. He tries hard but needs to learn how to hold a mark and improve his disposal.

The coach and match committee are accountable for tactics and team structure and as far as I'm concerned their decision making leaves a lot to be desired. Eade is one of the most complacent coaches going around. I think it kills him to have to make a tough decision. He just seems to think that things should just work out. Well the fact of the matter is, life is not that easy.

I just hope that in five years time we don't look back and think 'We missed a big opportunity to win a premiership'. All the great players we've got like Lake, Murphy, Cooney, Griffen, Boyd, Hall, Grant, Morris, Gilbee, Picken. Young up and comers Roughhead, Wood, Libba, Wallis, Skinner, Ward, Vezpremi.

My changes for next week:

OUT
Wood (inj), Cross, Jones, Gia, Markovic

In
Lake (if fit), Gilbee (if fit), Moles, Roughhead, Skinner or Vezpremi

Stack Lake Morris
Gilbee Williams Murphy
Cooney Boyd Ward
Higgins Grant Sherman
Hill Hall Skinner/Vezpremi
Followers: Hudson, Griffen, Liberatore
Int: Picken, Djerkurra, Roughhead, Sub: Moles

 

[minters]

I completely agree with virtually every point you made. The drop in goals scored and lack of contributors is a big problem that needs to be addressed quickly. I think it's a combination of change in game plan and the loss of several players that consistantly scored goals over the years, namely Johnson, Akermanis, Eagleton and Hahn. The decline in form of these players last year due to age and injury had a significant impact on our avenues to goal. Thank goodness for Hall and the emergence of Jarryd Grant.

I agree that we miss Muprhy in the forward line. We miss his ability to lead out from goal, take a mark, turn his defender and plant a pass on another forwards chest. He used to kick a couple a game as well. I suspect they moved him to defence because his body was struggling.

The game has definately caught up with Cross and Gia. Cross is just too slow and the quality of his disposal has suffered severely in recent times because he doesn't posses the burst of speed necessary to find space. Gia's defensive pressure has never been a strong point. And with defensive pressure becoming such an important factor his lack of pace and toughness are really being exposed.

I know a lot of people on this forum like Liam Jones but he's just not capable of playing senior football at the moment. He tries hard but needs to learn how to hold a mark and improve his disposal.

The coach and match committee are accountable for tactics and team structure and as far as I'm concerned their decision making leaves a lot to be desired. Eade is one of the most complacent coaches going around. I think it kills him to have to make a tough decision. He just seems to think that things should just work out. Well the fact of the matter is, life is not that easy.

I just hope that in five years time we don't look back and think 'We missed a big opportunity to win a premiership'. All the great players we've got like Lake, Murphy, Cooney, Griffen, Boyd, Hall, Grant, Morris, Gilbee, Picken. Young up and comers Roughhead, Wood, Libba, Wallis, Skinner, Ward, Vezpremi.

My changes for next week:

OUT
Wood (inj), Cross, Jones, Gia, Markovic

In
Lake (if fit), Gilbee (if fit), Moles, Roughhead, Skinner or Vezpremi

Stack Lake Morris
Gilbee Williams Murphy
Cooney Boyd Ward
Higgins Grant Sherman
Hill Hall Skinner/Vezpremi
Followers: Hudson, Griffen, Liberatore
Int: Picken, Djerkurra, Roughhead, Sub: Moles

Definitely agree... Not sure why people persist with Jones... Just doesn't seem to cut it. CHF needs to impose himself on the game. He just hasn't got it.....

 

[Martyn_30_]

There's a reason Murphy's in the backline as he's needed for the run he provides, dont forget even with Harbrow there last year he was still moved back. Gilbee has lost a bit of pace and Wood is now also out leaves a role that only Murphy can play at the moment.

 

[TempleKelvington]

why do so many people put so much emphasis on rd 1? It's worth 4 points just like rd 2 and rd 18.

There have been years where we won in rd 1....2008 and 2009 I think, did it matter, did we win the flag? Last year we got towelled up in rd 1 also, and we had a better side in and we had come off our best pre season ever. And we made the prelim.

This year we had far from our best team, we had 2 blokes debut, another 2 playing their first games for us. We had a so so pre season, our best player was playing only his third proper game for the year. Almost an entirely new back line including missing our second best player. We played the form team of the pre season, other than the Pies. We even struggled against this mob last year when they were rubbish. They had the home crowd, Hirds first game and so on. It was always going to be a hard ask to win. I was pretty sure once we decided on one ruck that it was the last straw for us to have any chance.

We gifted them at the selection table and with our match day tactics. I still don't know what they were thinking......

Yes we lost...yes we have some issues...especially some of our good players....but come on...it's long season we need to be playing our best when it really counts. I firmly believe we will get better as the year goes on. And so....I will say it again.....it's now round 2.

 

[stefoid]

Jones is nervous as hell out there, you can see it - dropping marks, turning his back on players leading up the ground. Drop him and make srue that when he returns to the seniors he will be twice as nervous, or just play him into form?

We need someone like him firing and I cant see a better replacement given we absolutely need someone like Murphy in defence given that Wood has also now gone down with injury.

 

[Mr. Walker]

I don't believe the problem is that players don't know their roles. They do know their roles and they also know that if they don't fulfil that role they will still get picked. so they take the soft option, don't work as hard as they should and still get to be AFL footballers. Until they learn that no performance no reward means something at our club i fear their attitudes will not change.

However it was round one and i would be inclined to let the players, particularly the younger ones go round again. Wood is injured so he goes out for either Minson or Roughead. I would like to see Jones given another chance even though i believe a forward line of Hall, Grant, Jones and
Roughead is too top heavy. It is a hard selection choice.

 

[CalWard Is Money]

why do so many people put so much emphasis on rd 1? It's worth 4 points just like rd 2 and rd 18.

There have been years where we won in rd 1....2008 and 2009 I think, did it matter, did we win the flag? Last year we got towelled up in rd 1 also, and we had a better side in and we had come off our best pre season ever. And we made the prelim.

This year we had far from our best team, we had 2 blokes debut, another 2 playing their first games for us. We had a so so pre season, our best player was playing only his third proper game for the year. Almost an entirely new back line including missing our second best player. We played the form team of the pre season, other than the Pies. We even struggled against this mob last year when they were rubbish. They had the home crowd, Hirds first game and so on. It was always going to be a hard ask to win. I was pretty sure once we decided on one ruck that it was the last straw for us to have any chance.

We gifted them at the selection table and with our match day tactics. I still don't know what they were thinking......

Yes we lost...yes we have some issues...especially some of our good players....but come on...it's long season we need to be playing our best when it really counts. I firmly believe we will get better as the year goes on. And so....I will say it again.....it's now round 2.

First off, thanks to those who had kind words.

Secondly, I think i made it pretty clear that my opinions were NOT based solely on Round One!!! When you analyse data for a living you pick up trends and we are clearly in the middle of a spiralling downward trend.

This is how our points for tally has looked across our last eight games of football:

61 v Adelaide
60 v Geelong
70 v Sydney
107 v Essendon (kicked 17.5)
62 v Collingwood
77 v Sydney
64 v St.Kilda
58 v Essendon

In 2008 we averaged 113.9 points for across the H&A season
In 2009 we averaged 108 points for across the H&A season

The above data says to me that we are clearly not dealing well with teams that apply pressure and can match us in the contested ball area. Guess what happens in finals(again) people????

What i am most frustrated at is the fact that we identified the forward line as not being defensive minded enough and spruiked that we would be vastly improved in that area, did anyone see any improvement whatsoever?

Our Five main forwards in Hall, Grant, Jones, Higgins and Giansiracusa combined for 5 tackles and 5 goals.

On Saturday Chris Dawes singlehandedly kicked 4 goals and laid 5 tackles.

On Thursday night Jack Riewoldt kicked 6 goals and laid 4 tackles in a losing side.

The other major concern is that we didn't even put up a fight. 12 teams contested games that were decided by less than 4 goals. Even Port Adelaide had a dip and kicked 8 of 9 goals to get close to the Magpie juggernaut. Where was our fight?, if it is a matter of personnel missing then where was the fight from the guys on the fringe attempting to secure a spot???

I am also so frustrated that this club is wasting another chance to get us a flag. Have we not learnt from what other sides do/have done? St.Kilda are another side that have 5-6 players who have obvious deficiencies and when it comes to the crunch, they get exposed. We can not afford to have players who are one-dimensional because they will be exposed (again).

 

[memberforever]

Secondly, I think i made it pretty clear that my opinions were NOT based solely on Round One!!! When you analyse data for a living you pick up trends and we are clearly in the middle of a spiralling downward trend.

.

Getting rid of Gia was based on one game. Last season he was the leader for goal assist amongst 600 players. Yes he had a bad day on Sunday.

You need to look into your stats a bit deeper especially goal kicking. Yes we did kick less goals over the past two years, but so did the rest of the comp as defense became a new trend. We still managed in 2009 and 2010 to be in the top three for goals. We have also changed our game plan slightly over the past two years to be more defensive and were one of the top for defense in 2010, ie conceeding least goals. I agree from that Geelong game in 2010, it has me a little worried, ie the way we conceeded so many goals. This is mainly due to our unaccounatble midfield not putting on any pressure.

Overall I like your analysis. I think we need two Bob Murphys, who I consider in the top three in importance for our team.

 

[Dry Rot]

Great OP. Well done.

Pleasure to read a well thought out, researched argument here.

Thanks.

 

[dogwatch]

Getting rid of Gia was based on one game. Last season he was the leader for goal assist amongst 600 players. Yes he had a bad day on Sunday.

You need to look into your stats a bit deeper especially goal kicking. Yes we did kick less goals over the past two years, but so did the rest of the comp as defense became a new trend. We still managed in 2009 and 2010 to be in the top three for goals. We have also changed our game plan slightly over the past two years to be more defensive and were one of the top for defense in 2010, ie conceeding least goals. I agree from that Geelong game in 2010, it has me a little worried, ie the way we conceeded so many goals. This is mainly due to our unaccounatble midfield not putting on any pressure.

Overall I like your analysis. I think we need two Bob Murphys, who I consider in the top three in importance for our team.

I like your analysis better memberforever. You have nailed it.

Does anyone remember how we topped the scoring in 2009 but everyone complained how we also conceded some pretty large scores, especially against top sides. We tightened that up quite well but it meant not quite so much risk taking and that meant fewer goals scored.

We also seem to focus too much on the negative stats at times. For instance everyone used to say Eagleton was a downhill skier (yawn) but at the same time we wanted outside players with run and penetration. Is it any surprise that an outside midfielder is not getting many clearances and CPs and tackles when his job is to be a receiver and runner?

Ditto with Gia. He is a creative player who provides lots of assists and is usually in our top 3-4 goalscorers but has never been a line breaker and seldom wins a match off his own boot, if ever. He's fulfilling a designated role. If someone can do it better fair enough but don't blame him for not being an in-and-under player, a ferocious tackler or a lightning fast crumber. That's not what he pretends to be.

Having said all that I am still worried by the size of some of our more recent losses, such as those against Geelong (r20 101 pts), Sydney (r21 44 pts) Collingwood (QF 62 pts), and Essendon (R1 55pts). That's 4 of our last 7 games. There may have been some excuses but it's hardly inspriring form.

 

[Dry Rot]

OK, but we didn't IIRC finish second last in 2010 in some forward defensive stat?

 

[TempleKelvington]

I do understand that the analysis here is not based just on rd 1....but let me put it to you this way.

After reviewing all the stats on last year, like you have on here and after a summer of planning, of identifying our issues and implementing changes and so on, we role into the season. We front the a hot bomber outfit a team we struggled with last year, new coach, home crowd. We don't have our first rate backline, we don't have Lake. Cooney is healthy and playing a gallop or two short of his best fitness. We go into the game with 4 new players, two who make their debut. To top it off we make a selection error with the ruck and 1 or 2 other selection errors.

Let's say you are David Smorgan.

Do you after rd one sack the coach? Or do you even discuss it?

Lets say you are Rodney Eade.

Do you drop the likes of Boyd because he had a 50% disposal efficiency? Do you drop some other senior players because they didn't work hard enough. Do you drop senior players from a forward line because they failed to apply pressure? Do you make wholesale changes?

That's my point. Sure there are some issues and they need to be addressed, but after just one game of this season, one attempt at the plans made over summer can you really make the sort of calls as I listed above?

....what do you do about it? What would you do if you were in charge....I mean really in charge.

The coaches, the players need to be allowed to sort things through based on a number of weeks. We surely can't expect to go too far, based on one game under the circumstances.

But I'm all for making some very hard calls in 3 or 4 weeks if things have not improved...then will have a much better feel for what has to be done. In fact...let's revisit after we play Collingwood in rd 6. by then we will have had a couple of very winnable games a tough trip to Freo and the bench mark team. I reckon we'll know a lot more about how this years plans are going....and a couple more efforts like sunday from the selectors, coaches and players and it could get interesting.

 

[boydsno1]

Gia and Hill are our best goal kickers after Hall. If we are to have any variation both need to play.

 

[table tennis]

This thread was just mentioned on SEN 1116

 

[cosmicr]

This thread was just mentioned on SEN 1116

what did they say?