Who are our leaders really?! What's more important - skill or determination?

[Football Tragic]

If you can't find any examples of people saying Cotchin isn't a very good leader, then you've got your eyes closed.

Leadership is so much more than being a larger-than-life figure.

I think Trent's character traits make him an excellent leader in his own way, which is why the young players respect him so much.

He's not loud and boisterous, but apparently he's very good in 1 on 1 quiet talks with individual players. His values and perspective helps others improve. He's a great leader IMO, even if he's not seen to be shouting and finger pointing on match day (which is how most fans attempt to measure leadership).

On the flip side, and without taking a shot at a great player, but Jack does all the finger pointing and emotional chest beating of a leader that fans love. However, apparently he's simply not smart enough with the way he deals with all the types of personalities you'd find in 40+ players. 99% of a captain's leadership happens behind closed doors, so that's why I believe random fans forming strong opinions on the subject are making their decision based on body language on match day.

That may be the case for some supporters but I'm not making my judgement based on on-field finder pointing or meaningless yelling. I think Cotchin is a good leader but I'm just not sure he is a good captain. It's great to hear he works well one-on-one with players to develop them but we need someone to lead the group together. I think we need leaders to demand more of the group on field and pull them up when they are not doing that. It is the difference between a good team/good captain and a great team/great captain.

We just don't seem to have many players that can step into leadership atm

 

[Football Tragic]

I'd actually say it's one of the things that has gotten better during Hardwick's time. It still has a loooong way to go, but I reckon it's a little better.

That 2014 streak really seemed to galvanise the club. Five years ago, if we were behind during the last quarter, I'd start trying to remember the words to the opposition's song and brace myself for just how bad it might get. If we're behind in the last quarter now, I still keep hope.

Maybe it's just me that changed.



This is a good point and a genuine concern. Part of it is that we have been rebuilding for so bloody long that we are only just starting to have some home-grown players getting deep enough into their careers to lead.

Chris Newman played his 150th game in 2009. Until 2014, only Deledio and Tuck also reached that milestone. It was five years later in 2014 we had Edwards, Foley, Riewoldt and Dan Jackson all added as life members in one season. We've since added Cotchin, Rance and Martin.

Part of the problem is obviously that we don't recruit leaders very well, but part of the problem is also that we haven't been able to keep any home-grown veterans on the park. I don't think I'd be alone in saying that I thought Jackson, King, Tuck and Foley (maybe add Maric in there if he doesn't get back) had their body break down before their time was up. That would have been a pretty handy core of leadership during 2016, I reckon.

Fair points here too RunningBounce. We have obviously recruited and managed our players better in recent years. We just need to now bring some of these better/more durable players through that have leadership skills - Flossy?

 

[RunningBounce]

We just need to now bring some of these better/more durable players through that have leadership skills - Flossy?

More, for mine.

When I think about premiership clubs that have “leadership culture” (whatever that is), like Hawthorn, Sydney and Geelong, they all had / have multiple veterans all over the park that know what they are supposed to do in a given situation. I’d say Corey Enright was as important to Geelong as Selwood, in terms of leadership. He might not have been very vocal or demonstrative, but he just knew what needed to be done to win a game.

It’s been the same in my own very humble, very amateur career. The good teams I’ve played in have had a player on every line that was something like a playing coach, positioning the blokes around him, encouraging, talking through what needed to be done.

Flossy will be part of it, if we ever build it, but we probably need half a dozen (minimum) who are very well-drilled, disciplined, experienced and believe in the game plan.

The last bit is where we will struggle in 2017, IMO. The ugly shellackings at the end of 2016 looked to me like the team just gave up trying to play together.

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

That may be the case for some supporters but I'm not making my judgement based on on-field finder pointing or meaningless yelling. I think Cotchin is a good leader but I'm just not sure he is a good captain. It's great to hear he works well one-on-one with players to develop them but we need someone to lead the group together. I think we need leaders to demand more of the group on field and pull them up when they are not doing that. It is the difference between a good team/good captain and a great team/great captain.

We just don't seem to have many players that can step into leadership atm

How do you know Cotchin isn't doing that? As I said, you're literally judging him based on the amount of arm waving you can see him do on match day.

 

[Football Tragic]

How do you know Cotchin isn't doing that? As I said, you're literally judging him based on the amount of arm waving you can see him do on match day.

I'm judging him on what other players and club administrators have said and, even more importantly, what he has said himself. Speaking in front of others does not come naturally to him but its an area where he is trying to improve. He may be able to turn it around but at the very least he is not getting a great deal of support either way.

Nothing about hand waving, completely about what's coming out of the club.

 

[Football Tragic]

More, for mine.

When I think about premiership clubs that have “leadership culture” (whatever that is), like Hawthorn, Sydney and Geelong, they all had / have multiple veterans all over the park that know what they are supposed to do in a given situation. I’d say Corey Enright was as important to Geelong as Selwood, in terms of leadership. He might not have been very vocal or demonstrative, but he just knew what needed to be done to win a game.

It’s been the same in my own very humble, very amateur career. The good teams I’ve played in have had a player on every line that was something like a playing coach, positioning the blokes around him, encouraging, talking through what needed to be done.

Flossy will be part of it, if we ever build it, but we probably need half a dozen (minimum) who are very well-drilled, disciplined, experienced and believe in the game plan.

The last bit is where we will struggle in 2017, IMO. The ugly shellackings at the end of 2016 looked to me like the team just gave up trying to play together.

Completely agree. Players such as Chaplin were so under rated by the supporters because all they saw was when he failed in some crucial one-on-one contests. What they didn't realise, he was an on-field leader and coach and made everyone else around him stand up and perform better. Chaplin was always directing players into the correct positions and setups. He was never about himself. It was no co-incidence that Rance and Grimes had breakout seasons when he arrived.

Maric was the same. When he arrived we suddenly started winning around the contests. It wasn't just his tap work, it was the way he unselfishly blocked & shepherded, tackled and fought. It was how he directed his midfielders to where he would tap and call plays for them to follow. Hampson is improving and learning that rucking is much more than winning the tap but Maric was the midfield leader.

Rance is growing into a leader of the backline though I do hear that Grimes and Vlaustin take to the role much more. In the midfield, it all works well until set plays fail. When it does we don't have anyone to direct the others to make a change. In the forwardline Jack is an 'arm-waver'. He does direct others where to stand and go. Despite his eccentric personality and lack of respect from the media, he is a strong on-field leader.

We do need more leaders and just more players pulling up others who are not fulfilling their on-field roles and responsibilities. It takes far more than a captain to lead a team when the siren sounds.

 

[Dr Tigris]

To me, 'leadership' as larger than life characters is dangerous. they might help, for a while. But larger than life characters often lead the team rather than help the team lead itself. They alos usually don't play well with others - if you know what I mean.

What is really needed first is a group of players across the team that know what to do as the situation changes, and have the interpersonal ability and authority to instruct others what to do.
Knowing what to do is partly footy brain and partly experience, with coaching and mentoring important. This is why experienced teams tend to do well in tough situations, they have learnt how to react.
The interpersonal ability is partly personal and partly taught through experience and training. An introvert can be a great leader because they think about it more and work on what matters, because they aren't just saying stuff anyway.
Authority is derived from formal leadership roles, informal interpersonal interactions, and skills - along with a healthy dose of 'how we do things around here'. An example is that the Toyota production system allows anyone to stop the line. that is, Toyota found that by making everyone a leader they could improve quality and reduce cost. Similarly on the footy field 'making' everyone a leader is the best way to go. Some people aren't natural leaders and find it hard to learn how to lead. Some, like Dusty, slowly learn what to do. What we need is that mix of experience and character, helped by a structured approach to developing leadership everywhere. IMHO of course

Are we there?
No. But I suspect that we are getting closer. Lots of players have a decent amount of experience and they have hopefully learnt how to help each other.

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

I'm judging him on what other players and club administrators have said and, even more importantly, what he has said himself. Speaking in front of others does not come naturally to him but its an area where he is trying to improve. He may be able to turn it around but at the very least he is not getting a great deal of support either way.

Nothing about hand waving, completely about what's coming out of the club.

No, again you have absolutely no proof he isn't demanding the very best out of his teammates on match day.

You're assuming that because he's admitted he's not a natural public speaker that he doesn't get the best out of others on match day.

It's a stupid assumption quite frankly. He's always in the ear of other players IMO.

I'll agree from what we know he's unlikely to give a stirring pre-match address, but leadership is so much more than that.

 

[Football Tragic]

No, again you have absolutely no proof he isn't demanding the very best out of his teammates on match day.

You're assuming that because he's admitted he's not a natural public speaker that he doesn't get the best out of others on match day.

It's a stupid assumption quite frankly. He's always in the ear of other players IMO.

I'll agree from what we know he's unlikely to give a stirring pre-match address, but leadership is so much more than that.

I'm only sharing what the club administration has stated quite openly during functions and players attest too. No one has every said that he is not a good leader but they do say that he is far from vocal. What more evidence do you want?

 

[Football Tragic]

To me, 'leadership' as larger than life characters is dangerous. they might help, for a while. But larger than life characters often lead the team rather than help the team lead itself. They alos usually don't play well with others - if you know what I mean.

What is really needed first is a group of players across the team that know what to do as the situation changes, and have the interpersonal ability and authority to instruct others what to do.
Knowing what to do is partly footy brain and partly experience, with coaching and mentoring important. This is why experienced teams tend to do well in tough situations, they have learnt how to react.
The interpersonal ability is partly personal and partly taught through experience and training. An introvert can be a great leader because they think about it more and work on what matters, because they aren't just saying stuff anyway.
Authority is derived from formal leadership roles, informal interpersonal interactions, and skills - along with a healthy dose of 'how we do things around here'. An example is that the Toyota production system allows anyone to stop the line. that is, Toyota found that by making everyone a leader they could improve quality and reduce cost. Similarly on the footy field 'making' everyone a leader is the best way to go. Some people aren't natural leaders and find it hard to learn how to lead. Some, like Dusty, slowly learn what to do. What we need is that mix of experience and character, helped by a structured approach to developing leadership everywhere. IMHO of course

Are we there?
No. But I suspect that we are getting closer. Lots of players have a decent amount of experience and they have hopefully learnt how to help each other.

There can't ever be one leader, in today's game, no more than there can ever be one coach. I agree completely with you that there needs to be strong leadership across the ground as I'm sure you've read in my earlier posts here. A group of introverted leaders though do not work. On field leaders need to tell players where to position themselves, remind them of their roles, motivate them to perform and inspire them through their own performance. Cotch does the last one extremely well.

The more leaders we can get into the side who have bought into the game plan and who are not afraid to keep each other accountable, the more chance we have over overcoming adversity when times are tough. Players tend to go into themselves when they feel they are failing both on and off the field, it is the leaders who keep things simple and put things into perspective.

Body language and voice tells you a lot about how someone is feeling and people will mimic those they look up to. we need our leaders and experienced players to lift the team, give them direction when they feel lost and give them a model to follow to success.Which leaders in our team do that atm?

 

[El Tigre]

If you can't find any examples of people saying Cotchin isn't a very good leader, then you've got your eyes closed.

Leadership is so much more than being a larger-than-life figure.

I think Trent's character traits make him an excellent leader in his own way, which is why the young players respect him so much.

He's not loud and boisterous, but apparently he's very good in 1 on 1 quiet talks with individual players. His values and perspective helps others improve. He's a great leader IMO, even if he's not seen to be shouting and finger pointing on match day (which is how most fans attempt to measure leadership).

On the flip side, and without taking a shot at a great player, but Jack does all the finger pointing and emotional chest beating of a leader that fans love. However, apparently he's simply not smart enough with the way he deals with all the types of personalities you'd find in 40+ players. 99% of a captain's leadership happens behind closed doors, so that's why I believe random fans forming strong opinions on the subject are making their decision based on body language on match day.

So true.

And the next future leader(s) might be the one that doesn't necessarily show leadership traits now. Been plenty of people who have stepped up when asked, and have performed admirably.
Its great to have players with passion, but don't mistake that for leadership potential.

 

[Tigers Jaw]

our new captain
Demands the best from all around him
Leads by example - true passion
i love cotch but he is the future

 

[RunningBounce]

It was a fine post as usual, Dr, but I'm gunna rearrange it to reply, so bear with me.

What is really needed first is a group of players across the team that know what to do as the situation changes, and have the interpersonal ability and authority to instruct others what to do.

Couldn't agree more

To me, 'leadership' as larger than life characters is dangerous. they might help, for a while. But larger than life characters often lead the team rather than help the team lead itself. They alos usually don't play well with others - if you know what I mean.

Agree there are examples where these types have been destructive. There's also a heap of examples where they've been just the ticket.

If you haven't been listening to Rhett Bartlett's excellent podcast ROAR, I'd recommend it. Yesterday, fittingly and sadly, he posted an old interview with Bill Barrett, who said point blank that he often ignored Hafey's instructions to do what was best for Richmond. I never saw him, but he has the reputation as being one of the finest on-field, big game leaders that the game has seen.

Sometimes, in the moment, you think someone is a dick, then with hindsight, you see that dick or not, they boldly achieved great things. Many great leaders are considered dicks by the people who know them.

The trick is getting them out of the joint when things start to go south - eg Graeme Richmond and Eddie McGuire

 

[richoplzbreed]

Rance should be made captain. With vlastuin prestia grimes martin cotchin the lieutenants. Cotchins proven he's a pretty ordinary captain we need a breath of fresh air. The last couple of games when everyone else gave up rance and martin were still giving their all after a bloody exhausting year for them. Riewoldt was sooking as usual. My mate goes to Tiv with jack said he's not a leaders arse. Edwards was only given responsibility for having a fine year and being around a long time. Dusty needs some responsibility and to feel appreciated. Might be what sways him to stay. Hopefully Morris never gets another game. And if Taylor hunt plays again we might as well start tanking now.

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

I'm only sharing what the club administration has stated quite openly during functions and players attest too. No one has every said that he is not a good leader but they do say that he is far from vocal. What more evidence do you want?

You originally said we need leaders who can demand more from teammates. Yes, people have said he's not the most vocal type of leader. But your evidence doesn't support what you're saying about him demanding more from teammates.

 

[Dr Tigris]

It was a fine post as usual, Dr, but I'm gunna rearrange it to reply, so bear with me.



Couldn't agree more



Agree there are examples where these types have been destructive. There's also a heap of examples where they've been just the ticket.

If you haven't been listening to Rhett Bartlett's excellent podcast ROAR, I'd recommend it. Yesterday, fittingly and sadly, he posted an old interview with Bill Barrett, who said point blank that he often ignored Hafey's instructions to do what was best for Richmond. I never saw him, but he has the reputation as being one of the finest on-field, big game leaders that the game has seen.

Sometimes, in the moment, you think someone is a dick, then with hindsight, you see that dick or not, they boldly achieved great things. Many great leaders are considered dicks by the people who know them.

The trick is getting them out of the joint when things start to go south - eg Graeme Richmond and Eddie McGuire

Good post RB. I agree. But my comment on larger than life characters is really about only seeing people that shout louder than anyone else as 'LEADERS". These guys might be leaders but are often narcissistic w***ers that screw things up. Introverts can be great leaders, but in a different way.

What I want to see is a group of guys that can do things and provide instruction/support when required. And that the rest of the team works with them, not just follows. Relying on a truly great leader is fine whilst it lasts. But it teaches others to be followers. And once the leader goes south everything else follows - as you said with Graeme Richmond and Eddie McGuire.
Follow the leader vs. the group leads.

 

[Football Tragic]

So who are our current leaders? Who do they lead? Who do you think will be our future leaders?

 

[RunningBounce]

These guys might be leaders but are often narcissistic ******s that screw things up.

I think my boss is a leading leader by these characteristics

 

[Dr Tigris]

I think my boss is a leading leader by these characteristics

More than one around.

 

[Football Tragic]

Good post RB. I agree. But my comment on larger than life characters is really about only seeing people that shout louder than anyone else as 'LEADERS". These guys might be leaders but are often narcissistic ******s that screw things up. Introverts can be great leaders, but in a different way.

What I want to see is a group of guys that can do things and provide instruction/support when required. And that the rest of the team works with them, not just follows. Relying on a truly great leader is fine whilst it lasts. But it teaches others to be followers. And once the leader goes south everything else follows - as you said with Graeme Richmond and Eddie McGuire.
Follow the leader vs. the group leads.

In the end there is no one model that captains need to follow to be a great leader. The proof is really in the pudding. If a captain can make his team better and get them playing with uniform desperation and goals, then success will follow. Cotch has his own style that he is developing. I hope he will evolve into a strong leader like Newy did but I fear that 'inspiring' his team mates with his on field play is not enough.

 

[RunningBounce]

So who are our current leaders? Who do they lead? Who do you think will be our future leaders?

Rance-alot, for mine. His dragged us over the line for some of the best wins we've had recently. I'm a heterosexual gentleman with no real idea of what on earth women could possibly find attractive about men, but I can get some idea watching the last quarter of Round 23, 2014 vs Sydney. Genuine stand-up leadership, in terms of demonstrating the way, telling others what to do and demanding excellence.

Cotch is no bad leader. He certainly sets the tone, as they say, with his attack on the footy. Ditto Dusty and Miles. I am, however, concerned about the organisation of the mids when Maric isn't out there.

Riewoldt does a reasonable job of organising the forwards and setting an example.

I reckon our deficiency is in mid-tier players that I won't name. If those blokes contributed more positional instruction on the field, we would have someone to kick to a lot more often and a lot less opposition players waltzing around unmarked.

Vickery was like a leadership vacuum. Maybe we solved the leadership problem by moving him on. It took two leaders to make up for the leadership he sucked out of the system.

 

[Roachy8]

It's intangible...
Demanding levels of performance and commitment and actually getting them are two very different things.

Providing the lip service is something almost everyone can do - getting the greater group to live and breathe the edict is more about inspiring and motivating and energising all to a common cause rather than saying and doing certain things.

Fine player Cotch - sadly for whatever reason the team feels and says that they are all pulling the same way but clearly the message has not gotten through and/or been bought. (Round 23 v Sydney for example - no pride)

And as an analogy...
Cotch is the John Howard of leaders - we need a Whitlam! (& I didn't like Gough!)

 

[Roachy8]

Vickery was like a leadership vacuum. Maybe we solved the leadership problem by moving him on. It took two leaders to make up for the leadership he sucked out of the system.

Possibly - but a great leader/coach/culture would have smacked that out of him. (not saying it would have been easy!)
Very, very, very interested to watch his career at the Hawks - a club with a winning culture.