Why has GWS done much better than Gold Coast?

[iameviljez]

Mate had Toby Greene or Jeremy Cameron left as a free agent in 2020 or 2021 and GWS won a flag the next season, you wouldn't complain.

Hell if Nathan Fyfe and Michael Walters both left as free agents in 2017 and Dockers won a flag the next season, I wouldn't complain either.

I am not going to both talking about GWS concessions. Its been done to death.

I didnt care if GWS had one 1st round pick or 10 in the 1st 20 picks. GWS were always gonna get a good batch of 18- to 20-year-olds. So Did Gold coast in the previous season.

those 18- to 20-year-olds in year 1 were going to be 24- to 26-year-olds 6 years later.

No different to West coast eagles starting out in 1987. It was just Ironic that the VFL clubs stole most of the prime WAFL talent which forced west coast to choose a lot of 18- to 20-year-olds in 1987.

After 4 full seasons, eagles made a prelim and won a final in 1990.

After a full 5 seasons, they made a grand final in 1991.

After a full 6 seasons, they got a flag in 1992.

No Go Home factor in West Coast. That said, the Eagles got a massive jump on everyone else through professionalism

 

[threenewpadlocks]

A very easy but often overlooked comparison is the quality of the drafts the clubs came into. 2011 is one of the best drafts of all time, and the Giants acquired significantly better players that either played long careers with GWS, or were able to secure the club better trade returns when they left.

Gold Coast 2010
Underage signings: Maverick Weller, Jack Hutchins, Hayden Jolly, Luke Russell, Piers Flanagan, Trent McKenzie, Josh Toy, Tom Nicholls, Brandon Matera, Taylor Hine, Matt Shaw
QLD zone signings: Marc Lock, Zac Smith, Alik Magin, Jack Stanlake, Rory Thompson, Joseph Daye, Charlie Dixon, Jack Stanley, Lewis Moss, Rex Liddy, Joel Wilkinson, Tom Hickey
NT zone signings: Steven May, Liam Patrick
Drafted: David Swallow, Harley Bennell, Sam Day, Josh Caddy, Dion Prestia, Dan Gorringe, Tom Lynch, Seb Tape, Jeremy Taylor, Jacob Gilbee, Michael Coad, Roland Ah Chee, Jake Crawford

Underage signings and zone signings were eligible to be traded straight away. The Suns that were traded before properly joining the club were Peter Faulks, Andrew Krakouer, Jon Ceglar, Rohan Bewick, Cam Richardson, Simon Phillips and Tendai Mzungu.

GWS 2011
Underage signings: Dylan Shiel, Sam Darley, Tomas Bugg, Tim Golds, Nathan Wilson, Adam Treloar, Jeremy Cameron, Gerard Ugle, Jack Hombsch, Josh Growden, Adam Kennedy
NT zone: Curtly Hampton, Shaun Edwards
NSW zone: Jacob Townsend, Mark Whiley, Kurt Aylett, Sam Schulz, Josh Bruce, Anthony Miles, Tim Segrave
Drafted: Jon Patton, Stephen Coniglio, Dom Tyson, Will Hoskin-Eliott, Matt Buntine, Nick Haynes, Adam Tomlinson, Liam Sumner, Toby Greene, Taylor Adams, Devon Smith, Tom Downie, Jonathan Giles, Steve Clifton, Sam Frost, Rhys Cooyou, Andrew Phillips, Tim Mohr

The Giants traded Steven Morris, Martin Clarke, Jamie Elliott, Terry Milera, Ahmed Saad, Luke Brown and Jarrod Boumann before they properly joined the club.

The biggest most notable difference was the quality in underage signings. Shiel, Treloar and Cameron were all great players for GWS and netted them 7 first round picks between them in the future. I believe the only underage signing that managed to get traded by Gold Coast was Matera. Even the unremarkable Adam Kennedy probably played out a better career than any of those underage Suns.

The 2010 draft was pretty strong in hindsight, but had a lot of successful late picks. The first round where the Suns had most of their picks, was quite rubbish. To have plucked, Swallow, Lynch, Prestia and Caddy was probably a big success given how many busts went in the top 20.

This doesn't fully even explain the differences in entry conditions, because you're missing a few players.

There was the belief that GC was the more desireable location, players who were willing to move to an expansion team would do so earlier ("first crack" existing AFL talent), and that the Queensland zone players better than NSW zone players.

This meant that GWS got better concessions than GC in an attempt to square away this difference.:

• GWS were able to maintain a bigger list size (and salary cap required for that) relative to GC in year 1, 2, 3 etc. of their eixistence
• GC got access to 2 NT players for one season, the 2010 draft (May + Patrick). GWS got access to 2 NT players per season for 3 years, 2011-12-13. They first got Hampton and Edwards (as you say). In addition to the 2011 draft just being better, they lucked out in the fact that Dom Barry, Jake Neade and Jed Anderson all came from the NT in 2012/13 and was a greater-than-expected haul of talent than initially believed. These three players were all on traded as part of complex trades but were all considered quality talents that were top-30 pick worthy or whatever. It became a more valuable additional concession than intended.
• GWS were able to pre-list and ontrade players for an additional year. They did this with Tom Lee + 45 + 24 for 12. The difference in value between 24 + 45 and 12 is significant - it means that St Kilda in trading for Tom Lee rated Lee a pick in the 20's, and that was just gifted to GWS.
• The main one being the minidraft. GWS got access to the picks that became O'Meara, Martin, Hogan and Crouch, and got the equivalent of 3 or 4 top 5 and another 3 or 4 top 10 picks for trading out these players.

We all can agree that it is true the QLD zone was better than the NSW zone (Smith, Thompson, Dixon, Wilkinson, Hickey all had better AFL careers than Townsend, Bruce), and that GC was able to recruit better quality OOC players (they got Ablett after all, GWS missed out on Buddy, which would have been the equivalent).

However, the AFL clearly overcompensated these advantages that GC had. That advantage was not worth:

• NT access that gave effectively gave them another 3 late 1st/early 2nd round talent
• Pre-listing talent that gave them another early 2nd round talent
• Mini-draft, that gave them the equivalent of another 6-8 top 10 draft picks.

That aside, I think there's also a key difference between the two teams:

GWS were prepared to be god-awful in their second season.

GWS doubled-down on recruiting as much young talent as possible, even if it meant fielding wholly uncompetitive teams.
For example, they were expected to trade their four mini-draft picks for established talent. They instead only traded them for additional draft picks.

I think people are forgetting just how bad GWS Giants were in 2013.
They went 1-21 20 of their 21 losses were by at least 30 points.

They conceded any sort of competitiveness in 2013 in order to maximise their chance of winning games from 2015/16 onward, by simply taking a look and developing as many young players (expected to improve) as possible.

For context, GC Suns were far more competitive in their second season. They won three games (2 excluding against GWS in their first year), but of their 19 losses on the season, 5 were within a 18 point margin.

 

[adammania9]

This doesn't fully even explain the differences in entry conditions, because you're missing a few players.

There was the belief that GC was the more desireable location, players who were willing to move to an expansion team would do so earlier ("first crack" existing AFL talent), and that the Queensland zone players better than NSW zone players.

This meant that GWS got better concessions than GC in an attempt to square away this difference.:

• GWS were able to maintain a bigger list size (and salary cap required for that) relative to GC in year 1, 2, 3 etc. of their eixistence
• GC got access to 2 NT players for one season, the 2010 draft (May + Patrick). GWS got access to 2 NT players per season for 3 years, 2011-12-13. They first got Hampton and Edwards (as you say). In addition to the 2011 draft just being better, they lucked out in the fact that Dom Barry, Jake Neade and Jed Anderson all came from the NT in 2012/13 and was a greater-than-expected haul of talent than initially believed. These three players were all on traded as part of complex trades but were all considered quality talents that were top-30 pick worthy or whatever. It became a more valuable additional concession than intended.
• GWS were able to pre-list and ontrade players for an additional year. They did this with Tom Lee + 45 + 24 for 12. The difference in value between 24 + 45 and 12 is significant - it means that St Kilda in trading for Tom Lee rated Lee a pick in the 20's, and that was just gifted to GWS.
• The main one being the minidraft. GWS got access to the picks that became O'Meara, Martin, Hogan and Crouch, and got the equivalent of 3 or 4 top 5 and another 3 or 4 top 10 picks for trading out these players.

We all can agree that it is true the QLD zone was better than the NSW zone (Smith, Thompson, Dixon, Wilkinson, Hickey all had better AFL careers than Townsend, Bruce), and that GC was able to recruit better quality OOC players (they got Ablett after all, GWS missed out on Buddy, which would have been the equivalent).

However, the AFL clearly overcompensated these advantages that GC had. That advantage was not worth:

• NT access that gave effectively gave them another 3 late 1st/early 2nd round talent
• Pre-listing talent that gave them another early 2nd round talent
• Mini-draft, that gave them the equivalent of another 6-8 top 10 draft picks.

That aside, I think there's also a key difference between the two teams:

GWS were prepared to be god-awful in their second season.

GWS doubled-down on recruiting as much young talent as possible, even if it meant fielding wholly uncompetitive teams.
For example, they were expected to trade their four mini-draft picks for established talent. They instead only traded them for additional draft picks.

I think people are forgetting just how bad GWS Giants were in 2013.
They went 1-21 20 of their 21 losses were by at least 30 points.

They conceded any sort of competitiveness in 2013 in order to maximise their chance of winning games from 2015/16 onward, by simply taking a look and developing as many young players (expected to improve) as possible.

For context, GC Suns were far more competitive in their second season. They won three games (2 excluding against GWS in their first year), but of their 19 losses on the season, 5 were within a 18 point margin.

Great points. I knew GWS were set up with better concessions but I didn’t realise the weight of it

Couldn’t help but acknowledge a 2011 trade made by Gold Coast is one they’d love to have the time over. They on-traded a recent QLD zone pick up Dayne Zorko in exchange for Matthew Warnock and an upgrade of 47 to 34 at the draft

 

[SnusCG]

This doesn't fully even explain the differences in entry conditions, because you're missing a few players.

There was the belief that GC was the more desireable location, players who were willing to move to an expansion team would do so earlier ("first crack" existing AFL talent), and that the Queensland zone players better than NSW zone players.

This meant that GWS got better concessions than GC in an attempt to square away this difference.:

• GWS were able to maintain a bigger list size (and salary cap required for that) relative to GC in year 1, 2, 3 etc. of their eixistence
• GC got access to 2 NT players for one season, the 2010 draft (May + Patrick). GWS got access to 2 NT players per season for 3 years, 2011-12-13. They first got Hampton and Edwards (as you say). In addition to the 2011 draft just being better, they lucked out in the fact that Dom Barry, Jake Neade and Jed Anderson all came from the NT in 2012/13 and was a greater-than-expected haul of talent than initially believed. These three players were all on traded as part of complex trades but were all considered quality talents that were top-30 pick worthy or whatever. It became a more valuable additional concession than intended.
• GWS were able to pre-list and ontrade players for an additional year. They did this with Tom Lee + 45 + 24 for 12. The difference in value between 24 + 45 and 12 is significant - it means that St Kilda in trading for Tom Lee rated Lee a pick in the 20's, and that was just gifted to GWS.
• The main one being the minidraft. GWS got access to the picks that became O'Meara, Martin, Hogan and Crouch, and got the equivalent of 3 or 4 top 5 and another 3 or 4 top 10 picks for trading out these players.

We all can agree that it is true the QLD zone was better than the NSW zone (Smith, Thompson, Dixon, Wilkinson, Hickey all had better AFL careers than Townsend, Bruce), and that GC was able to recruit better quality OOC players (they got Ablett after all, GWS missed out on Buddy, which would have been the equivalent).

However, the AFL clearly overcompensated these advantages that GC had. That advantage was not worth:

• NT access that gave effectively gave them another 3 late 1st/early 2nd round talent
• Pre-listing talent that gave them another early 2nd round talent
• Mini-draft, that gave them the equivalent of another 6-8 top 10 draft picks.

That aside, I think there's also a key difference between the two teams:

GWS were prepared to be god-awful in their second season.

GWS doubled-down on recruiting as much young talent as possible, even if it meant fielding wholly uncompetitive teams.
For example, they were expected to trade their four mini-draft picks for established talent. They instead only traded them for additional draft picks.

I think people are forgetting just how bad GWS Giants were in 2013.
They went 1-21 20 of their 21 losses were by at least 30 points.

They conceded any sort of competitiveness in 2013 in order to maximise their chance of winning games from 2015/16 onward, by simply taking a look and developing as many young players (expected to improve) as possible.

For context, GC Suns were far more competitive in their second season. They won three games (2 excluding against GWS in their first year), but of their 19 losses on the season, 5 were within a 18 point margin.

Worth noting as well in regards to Zones that while the initial zoning produced better players in QLD, the influx of highly talented academy players to GWS started very early, including guys like Zac Williams, Harry Perryman, Tom Green, Jacob Hopper, Harry Himmelberg, Jack Steele, Jeremy Finlayson, Matt Kennedy, Will Setterfield, Kieren Briggs, James Peatling etc. which didn't just help GWS build a strong list quicker, but allowed them to continue to stockpile talented players even once the team had started playing well.

Comparative to the Suns academy which to date has only produced a few notable players like Jack Bowes, Bohdi Uwland, Connor Budarick, and most recently Jed Walter, Jake Rogers, Ethan Read and Will Graham, however only one of those players entered the system pre-2021

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Worth noting as well in regards to Zones that while the initial zoning produced better players in QLD, the influx of highly talented academy players to GWS started very early, including guys like Zac Williams, Harry Perryman, Tom Green, Jacob Hopper, Harry Himmelberg, Jack Steele, Jeremy Finlayson, Matt Kennedy, Will Setterfield, Kieren Briggs, James Peatling etc. which didn't just help GWS build a strong list quicker, but allowed them to continue to stockpile talented players even once the team had started playing well.

Comparative to the Suns academy which to date has only produced a few notable players like Jack Bowes, Bohdi Uwland, Connor Budarick, and most recently Jed Walter, Jake Rogers, Ethan Read and Will Graham, however only one of those players entered the system pre-2021

I think part of it is just GWS have run a higher-quality academy, so it isn't just dumb luck about where talent appears in the country, GWS deserve that talent as their efforts to devleop it was comparatively better than GC's.

But ye, I agree, more talent appearing in the GWS zone than the GC zone randomly in 2010-2020 when compared to 2000-2010, and seemingly now 2020-2024, is also a factor, which explains the disparity.

AFL realised that and removed some of the deep Riverina regions (keeping some others) from their zones, especially as they were sort of double-dipping with these players, with lesser geographic distance from Vic population centres were also being developed through the Victorian talent development private schools and TAC cup system in a way that Riverina kids were not 10 years earlier, and other NSW and QLD kids continue not to be developed through. E.g. Setterfield from Albury was a pick 5, grew up in Albury, went to Caufield Grammar and played some games for Sandringham. If Setterfield was from Canberra, Broken Hill, Western Sydney or just a random more northerly Riverina farming community, he would have been less likely developed his footy in Melbourne and more through the actual GWS operations in the NSW/ACT.

 

[Freomaniac]

GWS got it right from the start when they nailed their veteran player picks. They prioritised leadership and culture over talent. Compare the pair...

Gary Ablett Jr	Callan Ward
Nathan Bock	Phil Davis
Michael Rischitelli	Tom Scully
Nathan Krakouer	Rhys Palmer
Campbell Brown	Dean Brogan
Jarrod Harbrow	Chad Cornes
Jared Brennan (!!)	Luke Power
Josh Fraser	James McDonald

There's just so much more leadership and application on the right-hand side of that table

Comparing the 8 experienced Gold coast suns players to the 8 GWS players.

But looking at the Gold coast Suns players. The Salary cap back in 2011 was 8.2 million.

Gary Ablett Jnr was on 1.5 million a year for 5 seasons. Andrew Krakouer was on $400,000 a year for 3 seasons. The rest of the other 6 were on $500-$600,000 a year on 3 or 4 year deals.

It seems like the Suns budget for experienced players was $5 million. you would assume 10 players on $500,000 a year. But it seems like Ablett was on 1.5 million a year and the other 7 blokes were on $500-$600,000 a year.

Ablett was the suns 1st captain and held it for 6 seasons until Tom Lynch and Steven May were co captains in 2017.

Essentially 10 AFL players from other AFL clubs.

Then you got all those kids, 42 of them on Low Wages on $100,000 a year. 2 years later, most of those 18 and 19 year old kids got 2 year extensions and a small pay rise to fit in the Salary cap.

Krakeour and Fraser were gone by year 2. Bock, Brennan and Campbell brown only played 3 seasons.

With GWS....


They too had 10 AFL players from Different clubs. They did get some old players. James McDonald and Luke Power Stayed for one season both were leaders.. Chad Cornes and Dean Brogan stayed for 2 seasons both of them were leaders too. I wouldnt Say Tom Scully and Rhys Palmer were " Leaders"

Luke Power, Callan ward and Phil davis were the co captains in 2012. Callan ward and Phil Davis were co captains from 2013 to 2019 then Stephen Coniglio was captain in 2020.

Like the Gold Coast suns, they too had around 40 kids on their list. GWS struggled to reach the minimum salary cap in the 1st 2 seasons. But when the massive amount of 2011 Draftees were out of contract, most stayed and signed extensions for another 2 or 3 years. Some of them were traded.

Like Gold coast, GWS drafted a lot of kids. Those 18 to 20 year olds they drafted at the end of 2011 were 23 to 25 year olds at the end of 2016 which won their 1st final.

 

[Clark G]

What in the Mount Drewett are you talking about? We all know what Western Sydney is about.

Not every player will leave their clubs just for a bigger contract. Players that really like the club where they are at, won't even bother talking to other clubs, they will just quietly negotiate a new contract, sign it, and continue playing.
There are plenty of players playing for the club they love for less money or years than they could have had elsewhere.

For instance, both Darcy Fogherty and Riley Thillthorpe re-signed before they were due to come out of contract, didn't get their managers to get offers from other clubs, they wanted to stay, got a deal they were happy with, and re-signed.
There is players just like this at all clubs.

Why haven't Isaac Henney, Errol Gulden, Callum Mills, Braeden Campbell, Nick Blakey etc left Sydney for more money?

I notice you did not put Chad Warner in that list.

 

[Freomaniac]

No Go Home factor in West Coast. That said, the Eagles got a massive jump on everyone else through professionalism

You are partially correct.

We can debate about West coast being a "State side".

Lets compare West coasts playing list in 1987 to say Brisbanes. Keep in mind West coast were prevented some WAFL talent too. Mark Bairstow rings a bell? He played for your club. He joined the Cats at the end of 1986. 10 days later the Eagles were formed.

West Coast 1987 side had only 35 players. Of those 35 players, only 7 of them had VFL experience from their previous clubs. So an Ageing Robert Wiley and an Ageing Ross Glendenning.

A fair bit of them played in the eagles 1st final in 1988. Some of those 18- 21 year old eagles players in 1987 were 24-27 year olds in that 1992 flag.

Compare that to Brisbane in 1987. They had 40 or 41 players on the list. They did get Experienced VFL players from other clubs. The VFL clubs had to give up 2 or 3 players each So the Bears had experience players. Brisbanes list were made up of old players aged 30 or over and any young players in their 20s were either depth players or rejects from other clubs.

Not one of them played in Brisbanes 1st final in 1995.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

You are partially correct.

We can debate about West coast being a "State side".

Lets compare West coasts playing list in 1987 to say Brisbanes. Keep in mind West coast were prevented some WAFL talent too. Mark Bairstow rings a bell? He played for your club. He joined the Cats at the end of 1986. 10 days later the Eagles were formed.

West Coast 1987 side had only 35 players. Of those 35 players, only 7 of them had VFL experience from their previous clubs. So an Ageing Robert Wiley and an Ageing Ross Glendenning.

A fair bit of them played in the eagles 1st final in 1988. Some of those 18- 21 year old eagles players in 1987 were 24-27 year olds in that 1992 flag.

Compare that to Brisbane in 1987. They had 40 or 41 players on the list. They did get Experienced VFL players from other clubs. The VFL clubs had to give up 2 or 3 players each So the Bears had experience players. Brisbanes list were made up of old players aged 30 or over and any young players in their 20s were either depth players or rejects from other clubs.

Not one of them played in Brisbanes 1st final in 1995.

West Coast still got priority access to WA talent after 1987, that's what people refer to it being a "state side" as their list was shaped and developed over time through to to the 90's.

It wasn't a one-off entry conditions access to WA talent and then from that point onward WA players entering a national draft, as is the case now.

Keep in mind that West Coast weren't prevented from drafting the same SA/Vic Country/Tasmania talent that the Vic clubs were all battlihg for 1988-1990 (there was still metropolitan zones and some Qld/NSW players were zoned to Sydney/Brisbane) too.

[end of] 1987: West Coast had another year of complete access to new WA talent (though didn't enter in the draft)
1988: Pre-listed five WA players, each individual VFL club could only draft one WA player each with all of their draft picks:
1989: Pre-listed two WA players incl Ryan Turnbull, each individual club could only draft one WA player each with all their draft picks. This functionally allowed WCE to draft Tony Evans, Brett Heady and Ashley McIntosh, while knowing that these WA players would last to the end of the draft because of the restriction on other clubs from recruiting too many players, could trade their 2nd and 3rd round pick for Peter Wilson
1990: Pre-listed two players (Glen Jakovich and Mitchell White), clubs were only able to draft one WA player each, though at this point this was functionally less restrictive as players were not obligated to move to Victoria and WCE had already sucked up most of the talent - not every club elected to draft a WA player from their 7-9 draft picks
1991: Pre-listed one player (Jason Ball). As with other years, each AFL club was only allowed to draft one WA player each, and these clubs took WA players way earlier in the draft:
1992: Restrictions in clubs drafting multiple WA players finally removed

 

[Freomaniac]

West Coast still got priority access to WA talent after 1987, that's what people refer to it being a "state side" as their list was shaped and developed over time through to to the 90's.

It wasn't a one-off entry conditions access to WA talent and then from that point onward WA players entering a national draft, as is the case now.

Keep in mind that West Coast weren't prevented from drafting the same SA/Vic Country/Tasmania talent that the Vic clubs were all battlihg for 1988-1990 (there was still metropolitan zones and some Qld/NSW players were zoned to Sydney/Brisbane) too.

[end of] 1987: West Coast had another year of complete access to new WA talent (though didn't enter in the draft)
1988: Pre-listed five WA players, each individual VFL club could only draft one WA player each with all of their draft picks:
1989: Pre-listed two WA players incl Ryan Turnbull, each individual club could only draft one WA player each with all their draft picks. This functionally allowed WCE to draft Tony Evans, Brett Heady and Ashley McIntosh, while knowing that these WA players would last to the end of the draft because of the restriction on other clubs from recruiting too many players, could trade their 2nd and 3rd round pick for Peter Wilson
1990: Pre-listed two players (Glen Jakovich and Mitchell White), clubs were only able to draft one WA player each, though at this point this was functionally less restrictive as players were not obligated to move to Victoria and WCE had already sucked up most of the talent - not every club elected to draft a WA player from their 7-9 draft picks
1991: Pre-listed one player (Jason Ball). As with other years, each AFL club was only allowed to draft one WA player each, and these clubs took WA players way earlier in the draft:
1992: Restrictions in clubs drafting multiple WA players finally removed

the drafting and system was different back then.

There was no TAC cup or Vic Country league until 1992.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

the drafting and system was different back then.

There was no TAC cup or Vic Country league until 1992.

I'm aware.

I'm just making the point that West Coast was considered a virtual WA state team by the early 90's not solely because of their entry concessions or ability to convince players to return back west in 1986, but because on ongoing priority access to WA footballers between 1987-1991.

It wasn't just that they did or didn't recruit West Australian players for their 1987 team, but they were able to recruit players like Jakovich, Ball and McIntosh at various stages after the end of the 1987 season in a way that other clubs weren't allowed to recruit them.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm aware.

I'm just making the point that West Coast was considered a virtual WA state team by the early 90's not solely because of their entry concessions or ability to convince players to return back west in 1986, but because on ongoing priority access to WA footballers between 1987-1991.

It wasn't just that they did or didn't recruit West Australian players for their 1987 team, but they were able to recruit players like Jakovich, Ball and McIntosh at various stages after the end of the 1987 season in a way that other clubs weren't allowed to recruit them.

Ashley McIntosh was like Pick 112 in the 1989 draft. Every VFL club had the chance to take him.

Peter Mann was a pre draft pick in 1989. Was on the eagles list for one season. Got traded to North Melbourne. Played 39 games for north between 1991 to 1994. Goes to the dockers. Plays 77 game from 1995 to 1999 and Captains the dockers in 1997-8.

Another thing that needs to be Brought up was the crows.

They Virtually were a "State side" too. Picked mainly Local talent in the SANFL. Adelaide crows had a few Experienced players from other AFL clubs like Tony McGuiness, Mark Mickan, Danny Hughes, Bruce Abernathy and Bruce Linder.

Did the crows also get Pre draft picks in the 1991 or 1992 drafts?

 

[Mr Gor]

They have a better song

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Ashley McIntosh was like Pick 112 in the 1989 draft. Every VFL club had the chance to take him.

Peter Mann was a pre draft pick in 1989. Was on the eagles list for one season. Got traded to North Melbourne. Played 39 games for north between 1991 to 1994. Goes to the dockers. Plays 77 game from 1995 to 1999 and Captains the dockers in 1997-8.

Another thing that needs to be Brought up was the crows.

They Virtually were a "State side" too. Picked mainly Local talent in the SANFL. Adelaide crows had a few Experienced players from other AFL clubs like Tony McGuiness, Mark Mickan, Danny Hughes, Bruce Abernathy and Bruce Linder.

Did the crows also get Pre draft picks in the 1991 or 1992 drafts?

Crows didn't have any pre-draft access by 1992 so players like Martin Pike, Andrew McKay, Nick Holland left the state and never returned after being drafted in the first round (and some combination of these players presumably would have been pre-listed by the Crows if they could have).

 

[Freomaniac]

Crows didn't have any pre-draft access by 1992 so players like Martin Pike, Andrew McKay, Nick Holland left the state and never returned after being drafted in the first round (and some combination of these players presumably would have been pre-listed by the Crows if they could have).

My point is not every pre draft pick the eagles got from 1987 to 1991 was a success or an elite player.

 

[Jirik13]

Wish some people would do a bit homework here. Do a google search comparing GWS vs Suns concessions. You end up with reddit summarising concessions article including pdf. It's not even close. Both clubs were started with different concessions. In all aspects (cap, list size, picks) GWS were setup way more generously. For Suns add non existing facilities for 8 year, first time coach, inexperienced admin people, underfunding.

You could say, McKenna is a biased person but listen to some of his interviews. He actually broke his ankle on cow paddock where they trained in one of first training sessions. Players losing weight in gym set up in metal sheds, list getting younger during his stay, underfunded high performance team, being able to only bring half number of mature players they wanted due to lack of money.

GC is a right choice for expansion. You can see the growth of footy these days. Put right people in charge, provide adequate resources, facilities and results will come like with any business.

There is AFL history on GC. One could argue rich Sharks should get a licence. One could feel a change this year during home games, 4 sold out games despite no finals, a lot of young people. Compare that to GWS not selling out finals game this year.

Does it explain everything? Of course not. For sure, Suns made mistakes. But don't forget that Suns are run and controlled by AFL. For example, it was AFL who signed that original stupid stadium deal with QLD government which cost Suns apparently 3M per year and financially prohibited organising events there.

Just saying that Suns are bunch of idiots and no team will ever succeed on GC is plainly uneducated view. Most problems can be traced back to AFL headquarters stupid decisions.

Personally, I am more worried about GWS when they drop out of finals and stay at the bottom for some time. Western Sydney is a way tougher market.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

1996 says hello (year before merger)
Swans made the grand final. Bears made a prelim

This true. The Bears arguably started their turnaround from the BadNewsBears when they left Carrara for the Gabba (1992?), and Brisbane were based in Brisbane.
The Swans were still struggling to draw crowds in their poor years, but certainly on-field were not the side of the early 1990s. And crowds did generally pick up at that point, thought terrible years have been few and far between since which helps with that.

As to the OP's question, which seems to be more about on-field than off.
Part of it is player retention. GWS have a lost a lot of players, but managed to hold some that may have left in GC circumstances.
Possibly GC's original facilities played a part there. Those who could get out, got out to a club with more pro-standard facilities. While that isn't the case now, the standard the club may have been set in those years might be difficult to turn around.
The AFL perhaps cared a bit more about getting GWS competitive quickly. That is the big market, and the one which had (still has) almost zero interest in Australian Football, but the big potential money-spinner. From memory GWS arguably got better concessions, and were in a better position with facilities at start-up. Most of those advantages have gone now, but perhaps its flowed into "culture" (I don't like using the word, because its so often used in a nebulous way to cover unknowns) and expectations.

 

[iameviljez]

You are partially correct.

We can debate about West coast being a "State side".

Lets compare West coasts playing list in 1987 to say Brisbanes. Keep in mind West coast were prevented some WAFL talent too. Mark Bairstow rings a bell? He played for your club. He joined the Cats at the end of 1986. 10 days later the Eagles were formed.

West Coast 1987 side had only 35 players. Of those 35 players, only 7 of them had VFL experience from their previous clubs. So an Ageing Robert Wiley and an Ageing Ross Glendenning.

A fair bit of them played in the eagles 1st final in 1988. Some of those 18- 21 year old eagles players in 1987 were 24-27 year olds in that 1992 flag.

Compare that to Brisbane in 1987. They had 40 or 41 players on the list. They did get Experienced VFL players from other clubs. The VFL clubs had to give up 2 or 3 players each So the Bears had experience players. Brisbanes list were made up of old players aged 30 or over and any young players in their 20s were either depth players or rejects from other clubs.

Not one of them played in Brisbanes 1st final in 1995.

Brisbane 87 was a disorganised basket case that took other club’s rejects, barely had a preseason and played out of portables 80km from home

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

GWS had Sheedy & Williams to begin with & both know what is required to build success.

GWS targeted 4 better overall existing players, including Ward & Davis who both provided great leadership to a younger group.

 

[Cleric]

I notice you did not put Chad Warner in that list.

In no world would you even try to equate the situation at GWS with Sydney.

 

[Colonial]

In no world would you even try to equate the situation at GWS with Sydney.

And yet

 

[aussierulesrules]

Because they got significantly more draft concessions than Gold Coast when they started. The flow-on effect from that has been significant and allowed them to just keep on getting elite talent from the top of the draft year after year.

Gold Coast will catch up soon though, now that their academy is churning out top talent of their own on a yearly basis, and the 4 northern clubs will all stay in the top 8 on pretty much a permanent basis for the foreseeable future.

The other 14 clubs will be fighting it out for the other 4 spots.

 

[iameviljez]

You are partially correct.

We can debate about West coast being a "State side".

By the way, I never said West Coast were a "state side" - I don't agree with that assessment, FWIW, and it underplays the Eagles' success. However, they were filled with WA players and being a football state means they didn't suffer the go-home (or, in this case, stay-home) factor.

There is, however, good reason as to why Adelaide and West Coast were immediately successful, but Brisbane and Sydney were complete basket cases. Almost nobody wanted to go to Sydney and Brisbane; WA and SA players had a natural pull to their first home-state club.

 

[iameviljez]

This true. The Bears arguably started their turnaround from the BadNewsBears when they left Carrara for the Gabba (1992?), and Brisbane were based in Brisbane.

Robert Walls doesn't get the credit he deserves for turning that team around IMO.

Their nadir was probably '92, when they finished bottom and conceded a cricket score to us.

1993, they moved to the Gabba, held firm on Nathan Buckley, and started to actually put up a fight.

1995 they made finals with a great run, and gave Carlton a huge scare in their first final.

To go from the absolute joke they were in 1992, to a Prelim in 96, was a huge achievement.

 

[sydney_gws]

The answer to this is pretty obviously yes, isn’t it?

Since joining the league:

GWS:

- 1 Grand Final appearance

- 2 Preliminary Final appearances

- 6 Finals Appearances (likely to be 7 in a few weeks)


Gold Coast:

0 to all of the above.



Giants came in with a much better strategy (use the draft, aim for finals in 4-5 years) and it’s reaped them benefits.


Also pretty inarguable that the Giants have a much stronger identity and culture than the Suns.

GwS got better concessions, and coming after Gold Coast pushed out the picks Gold Coast got in 2011,2012,2013,2014 drafts.
Also Sydney is closer to Melbourne, means homesick players probably get to see their family a bit more ( cheaper to fly Melbourne to Sydney than Gold Coast to Melbourne).