Wizard Cup: WCE v Collingwood

[Mead]

Originally posted by thegur
First of all ...

1. nice reference by Jod to the Ansett Cup, bought back memories, but then again I would have been more impressed if he had of name dropped Panasonic Cup ...

2. Can we get a count of the amount of posts Mead has written glowing reports of Buffy? Perhaps he just ctrl+V's??

3. I'm going to throw something completely out of left field. First some givens ...

a. Trent Carroll has no talent.
b. The following players are injured: Glass, Gaspar, Buffy and Hunter.
c. The Hulk is not quite up to it.
d. Johnson is ready for a crack at FF.

Why not throw Howser to FB just for a learning experience? I'm not saying he'll be as versatile as Silvagni, or perhaps even Jeff Hogg (there's a blast from the past for you!) but surely it could not hurt the kid to play a little bit of defensive footy?

I was just trying to think of ways to keep Carroll out.

rant over

thegur

well let me figure this out. I've posted about 1000 messages over the last year or so, of which I would think young Buffy would have been mentioned in roughly half of them. So yes, about 500, with plenty more to come.

If we have no better options at all, (that is to say, no Staker or even Lynch), I would go for Carroll- if we were entirely focused on winning this game, maybe Doogs could be played down back, but I suppose the way I see it, we need him to fire in the forward line this year, so it makes sense to let him play there in the Wiz cup, since thats where he will get experience applicable to his natural role in the team. I think its more important that Doogs gets some experience and a good outing against some decent defenders, even if the result is Tarrant booting 6 or something.

 

[The Goods]

Just a few thoughts:

- From what I have seen in the scratch matches.
I think MacDougall and Johnston will play forward.

- Gardiner won't play meaning Seaby will get a chance.

- Nicoski will play in defense ... his left foot is outstanding.

- Staker, if fit, will play CHB. Lynch could be the replacement.

- I think Waters (his knee) is injured and won't play for 3 weeks.

- Collingwood will be top 4 again so it will be a good test for the young guys in the team.

- And there are a few new haircuts out there - Judd, Chick and a few others have gone the number 1.

The wait is finally over!

 

[Wrenny]

Just like to say that Buckley and Woewdoen isnt playing for the pies

 

[Streaker]

Originally posted by wrennyboy
Just like to say that Buckley and Woewdoen isnt playing for the pies

Staker is out for us.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/wa/200402/s1046189.htm

 

[Mead]

Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Staker is out for us.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/wa/200402/s1046189.htm

****ing hell. I'm even less happy about Gardiner doing a hammy- not because he was going to play, but because he needs to get in some solid training between now and the start of the season.

 

[bluey17]

Got my tickets for the game today.

Everyone has to sing...

SUPER, SUPER PHIL
SUPER, SUPER PHIL
SUPER, SUPER PHIL
SUPER PHIL MATERA!!!!

 

[DanielKerr4]

Originally posted by understudy
Never heard of Johnson. Doughal would be covered by either Wakelin or Presti. Then we have Cloke. Hardly undersized. Showed be able to cover your inexperienced forward half in theory.

Good to see that you are going for youth instead of wasted hacks like Cloke and Presti! I don't understand why clubs will use blokes like these instead of their future.

Johnson and McDougall are both really tall, probably tall enough for the ruck, that is what i meant by you being undersized as Cloke, Presti or Wakelin couldn't play in the ruck could they? In theory that is

 

[Thrawn666]

Originally posted by understudy
Never heard of Johnson. Doughal would be covered by either Wakelin or Presti. Then we have Cloke.

So Cloke will be playing on no-one as usual?

 

[Thrawn666]

Originally posted by DanielKerr4
Good to see that you are going for youth instead of wasted hacks like Cloke and Presti! I don't understand why clubs will use blokes like these instead of their future.

Just how old do you think Cloke is?

Or are you thinking of Old Man Mullet Cloke?

 

[grinspoon]

presti hack? he is 25. when was the last time lloyd, hall, tredrea, etc kicked a bag on him.. or even 3 goals. cloke is like 21.
players that wont play are,
ben johnson, nathan buckley, shane woewodin, rhyce shaw, mark mcgough there are more but we will have to wait.
will be good to see our midfield of youngsters which of most havent played a game yet. tarrant and rocca will play. burns will play a half, and i couldnt really care if we lose. id rather play a brisbane if we lose than a saints team if we win.

 

[DanielKerr4]

Originally posted by Thrawn666
Just how old do you think Cloke is?

Or are you thinking of Old Man Mullet Cloke?

I said wasted hacks, not old, i was thinking more youth as in 18 year olds. Lets hope Cloke has another ripper of a game just like the Grand Final

 

[DanielKerr4]

Originally posted by grinspoon
presti hack? he is 25. when was the last time lloyd, hall, tredrea, etc kicked a bag on him.. or even 3 goals. cloke is like 21.
players that wont play are,
ben johnson, nathan buckley, shane woewodin, rhyce shaw, mark mcgough there are more but we will have to wait.
will be good to see our midfield of youngsters which of most havent played a game yet. tarrant and rocca will play. burns will play a half, and i couldnt really care if we lose. id rather play a brisbane if we lose than a saints team if we win.

Don't take what i said about Presti seriously, i mean i wish West Coast had a decent full back!!!
Going on what you are saying we should beat your midfield with Judd, Kerr, Cousins, Fletcher, Chick against your young blokes, but then in your attack you should be able to account for Carroll, Staker, Lynch. Will be intersting one to watch.
I won't be too worried if we get done either, i mean when has West Coast ever taken the Pre-Season comp seriously?
Cheers, DK4

 

[Joel]

Originally posted by Exeter
I'm prepared to go on record as saying that Collingwood will never win a flag under Malthouse.

I reckon we've seen the best the Pies can dish up in their current incarnation and I think the ever friendly and congenial Micky Malthouse coaching method will start to wear pretty thin in the not to distant future.

...with the equal youngest side in the league, I believe there is plenty left in the 'current incarnation'.

 

[theorangeapple]

...with the equal youngest side in the league, I believe there is plenty left in the 'current incarnation'.

i love the way u used the word 'side'. i think you would have one of the oldest sides on the park however its supplemented with second rate youngters to make your 'LIST' the second youngest.

 

[understudy]

Originally posted by theorangeapple
i love the way u used the word 'side'. i think you would have one of the oldest sides on the park however its supplemented with second rate youngters to make your 'LIST' the second youngest.

sure are under a rock over there. we would have one of the young sides on the paddock. do some reseach please.

 

[theorangeapple]

dont get me wrong...it was more tongue in cheek than anything else. to be honest i did do my research to discover u do infact have the second youngest 'list' in the afl with the average age of 22.2 however, the 'list' and the 'side' are completely different things.

i cant be bothered now but i think if you could be stuffed working out the average age of each clubs best 22...collingwood would not be in the bottom five in terms of age.

look its not your fault u have been sucessful and been penalised top draft choices and as a result gun young players. it happened to the eagles (and to all sucessful clubs) because its wat the draft is designed to do....equalisation. you dont have any chris judd's because you were successful while we struggled (for a year)... so im certainly not taking all the credit for our young players.

however, it basically boils down to the fact that collingwood doesnt not have any remotely proven rising stars around 20. yes u do have cole, cloke, shaw but nothing that will win u premierships..which is wat started me on this topic.

 

[Joel]

Oh come on! Did you do some research on our youngsters and conclude that, did you?

Let's look at SOME of our players around 20 years old:

Cam Cloke, has spent time at Williamstown, and will look for a senior debut this season. Likely to play againt WC this weekend.

Richard Cole, showed plenty last year to show he is a genuine player.

Tom Davidson, rated by many people, including alot of people outside the club. He is said to have a better pair of hands than Tarrant (which is remarkable considering Taz led the league in marks last year). He is coming back from a knee injury which prevented him from playing last year.

Alan Didak, 21, this kid is class, and will build upon his solid performances from last year, especially during the finals, where he kicked multiple goals.

Josh Fraser, 22, this kid still has years left in him. Josh will continue to build upon his performances last year.

Brent Hall, 18, Vice Captain of the WA u18 Championship team in 2003. AIS/AFL Academy in 2003.

Guy Richards, 20, looks set to take over ruck duties (or share ruck duties) from Fraser very soon. This kid has talent.

Brayden Shaw, 18, captained Vic Matro in the TAC Cup. Brayden has the never say die attitude and a great awareness of what is going on around him. All- Australian Under 18. It is said that he proably would have gone top 10 if we hadn't of got him under father and son.

...and that's just a start. There are some quality youngsters, like David King, Luke Shackleton, Heath Shaw, just to name a few, coming through the ranks.

Mate, with the help of these youngsters (and more) Williamstown won the VFL Grand Final last year. If that doesn't prove quality young depth, what does?

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by Joel
Oh come on! Did you do some research on our youngsters and conclude that, did you?

Let's look at SOME of our players around 20 years old:

<snip>

Mate, with the help of these youngsters (and more) Williamstown won the VFL Grand Final last year. If that doesn't prove quality young depth, what does?

Cloke, Davidson, Hall, Richards and Shaw are NOT in your best 22. Only the other 3 can be considered in your best 22, though Fraser is probably only there by default.

How exactly does your post disprove theorangeapple' statement that Collingwood have an old(er) side?

 

[theorangeapple]

im afraid by listing those players you proved my point joel. they are nothing special at all. yes they may sound like they have potential but they achieved nothing.


Cole: handy player seems a bit to flashy...hardly consistant at all: 26 matches in 2 years.
didak: can be very classy but can also be very sh*t when things dont fall his way: 49 matches in 4 years.
Fraser: soft as microwaved butter. 90 games in 5yrs.
Hall: good west aussie boy..wish him well. 0 games
Davidson: O games. i heard he was good from eddie..no bias there.
Richards(20): 0 games in 3yrs.
B.Shaw: 0 games
H.Shaw: 0 games
King: 0 games
L. Shakleton: 0 games.
C.Cloke: 0 games

alot of these guys are new draftees so im not expecting them to have been guns...they may still be. but they'll need to get there act together. as for the top 3...well there alright but nothing u can hold your hat on. i no its not all of them and i hear morrison might be good.

i supose this is all academic. we'll no i 4-5 years time whose young players make the grade whose dont.

 

[Joel]

Fair enough, but you are making judgements and saying we have no talent coming through the ranks. I have presented some players that may prove otherwise.

Let's just wait and see, rather than making outlandish statement ahead of time (and that goes for both sides).

 

[Mead]

Originally posted by Joel

Mate, with the help of these youngsters (and more) Williamstown won the VFL Grand Final last year. If that doesn't prove quality young depth, what does?

Well.. eg.. this:

Chris Judd. 45 AFL games (continously), 50 Goals, 749 disposals, AFL Coaches Young Player of the Year. Runner Up Norwich Rising Star, Led the league in contested hard ball gets in 04. Vice Captain. 3rd In WC B&F 2002, 2nd in WC B&F 2003.
Aged 20 Years.

Daniel Kerr. 63 AFL Games. 44 Goals, 1112 disposals. ALFPA Best First Year Player. Runner Up Norwich Rising Star. 2nd Best and Fairest 2002.
Aged 20 Years.

Ashley Sampi. 25 AFL Games, 33 Goals, 241 Disposals, Norwich Nominee Round 5 2003.
Aged 19 Years.

Andrew McDougall 12 AFL Games. 9 Goals, 106 Disposals. Norwich Nominee Round 21 2003
Aged 20 Years

Those aren't all the young, promising players on our list. Those are just the guys 20 and under who have got hard AFL experience and are definitely in our best 22. I'm not sure you have anyone under 20 in that category. In fact I was having trouble finding any Pie 20 or under who has serious AFL experience- the best I could come up with was Tristen Walker, Dane Swan and Mark McGough, who have all of 21 games between them!

If you want to start talking about Fraser at 22 years of age, we'll see your Fraser, and raise you an Embley, Cox, Gaspar, Hunter and Glass to start with.

On top of that, i'm convinced that our younger, second tier players who are yet to really establish themselves in our 22, eg, Staker, Seaby, Johnson, Lynch, Selwood, Waters, McConnell, Nicoski, Butler etc, are certainly the equal of yours, but as with the people you mentioned really, all they are young guys who have shown some promise but may or may not come good. The reality is that players don't get drafted or rookie listed unless they show *some* promise.

Really that's, the difference between the two lists. Your young bloods are a bunch of names who haven't proven themselves at AFL level whereas ours, (and the similar quality young lists around the competition, eg Freo and St Kilda) are seasoned, AFL level players who have proven themselves at the top level.

Anyway, looking forward to the game this saturday immensely.. Gah, I need Footy!

 

[DanielKerr4]

Originally posted by Mead
Well.. eg.. this:

Chris Judd. 45 AFL games (continously), 50 Goals, 749 disposals, AFL Coaches Young Player of the Year. Runner Up Norwich Rising Star, Led the league in contested hard ball gets in 04. Vice Captain. 3rd In WC B&F 2002, 2nd in WC B&F 2003.
Aged 20 Years.

Daniel Kerr. 63 AFL Games. 44 Goals, 1112 disposals. ALFPA Best First Year Player. Runner Up Norwich Rising Star. 2nd Best and Fairest 2002.
Aged 20 Years.

Ashley Sampi. 25 AFL Games, 33 Goals, 241 Disposals, Norwich Nominee Round 5 2003.
Aged 19 Years.

Andrew McDougall 12 AFL Games. 9 Goals, 106 Disposals. Norwich Nominee Round 21 2003
Aged 20 Years

Those aren't all the young, promising players on our list. Those are just the guys 20 and under who have got hard AFL experience and are definitely in our best 22. I'm not sure you have anyone under 20 in that category. In fact I was having trouble finding any Pie 20 or under who has serious AFL experience- the best I could come up with was Tristen Walker and Mark McGough, who have all of 21 games between them!

If you want to start talking about Fraser at 22 years of age, we'll see your Fraser, and raise you an Embley, Cox, Gaspar, Hunter and Glass to start with.

On top of that, i'm convinced that our younger, second tier players who are yet to really establish themselves in our 22, eg, Staker, Seaby, Johnson, Lynch, Selwood, Waters, McConnell, Nicoski, Butler etc, are certainly the equal of yours, but as with the people you mentioned really, all they are young guys who have shown some promise but may or may not come good. The reality is that players don't get drafted or rookie listed unless they show *some* promise.

Really that's, the difference between the two lists. Your young bloods are a bunch of names who haven't proven themselves at AFL level whereas ours, (and the similar quality young lists around the competition, eg Freo and St Kilda) are seasoned, AFL level players who have proven themselves at the top level.

Anyway, looking forward to the game this saturday immensely.. Gah, I need Footy!

Check and Mate!

 

[daddy_4_eyes]

Originally posted by Mead
Anyway, looking forward to the game this saturday immensely.. Gah, I need Footy!

Same. Got a few collingwood fans working on same floor as myself, so naturally i've been playing this game up and getting a bit of a rivalry going. WC win, and it'll be a pleasant Monday, Pies win, and I'm gonna cop it sweet


btw, good post. I'd love to see how those 4 stack up against other clubs top youngsters.

 

[Streaker]

Doogs has apparantly dislocated a finger. Anyone know how bad it is?

 

[Juddamania]

Originally posted by West Coast Stre
Doogs has apparantly dislocated a finger. Anyone know how bad it is?

I REALLY REALLY wish I just didn't hear that