Worst forward line, midfield, and defence to win a premiership in the AFL era?

[Cleansweep17]

Johnson, Rioli and Betts never won a Brownlow.
Chapman won a Norm Smith, Betts never did.
Johnson, Rioli and Betts never won an MVP.
Finals MVP wasn't a thing pre-2016.
Chapman won a BnF, Johnson, Rioli and Betts never won a BnF.
Martin and Rioli never won a leading goal kickers award.
Martin and Johnson never won a goal of the year, and I can't believe you count that as a serious award.

My post was cumulative obviously I wasn’t going to break it down per player.

Goal of the year 4x or whatever for Betts shows freak skill imo.

Do you think GAS had freak skill because of his marks. Including his mark of the year? Yeah you do.

 

[adammania9]

This thread opened up an old wound though. Swans 2012 would have arguments their defence, midfield and even their forwardline could all be potential nominations. It's been over a decade and 3 premierships later and I still can't quite work it out.

Really? The Swans' defence was the benchmark of the competition for years. Not super decorated but Grundy, Richards, Smith, Malceski and Shaw were a great group. They were the #1 defence in the AFL in 2012, only behind Lyon's Freo GF side in 2013, and #1 again in 2014.

Their midfield was very strong too - Kennedy, Hannebery, Jack, McVeigh, Bolton, peak Jetta on the outside and O'Keefe and Goodes rolling through there too.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not in 08 or 10

Maybe if you had star KPF’s which the post was referring to you would’ve won them.

Maybe, but '08 Chappy was injured and SJ got sucked into up the ground stuff.

2010 we were bested by the Pies all over the field with their manic pressure, not much was some sort of forward line specific issue.

I'm happy to help with any other queries you have from eras before your time following football.

 

[Mr Meow]

Warren Tredrea and Brendon Lade went alright mate.

He started watching football in 2014, I doubt he has seen more than 3 Port matches from 2001-2004 even on replay.

 

[Donakebab]

Look I was just trying to say that you guys achieved a lot considering your lack of KP stock, which I find important in judging a forward line. Whilst Mooney and Hawkins (young) were good if you look at the other premiers two best fwds they are below average:

Better than 07,09,11 Mooney and Hawkins (young)

2024: Curnow/McKay

2022: Hawkins (prime)/Cameron

2020: Riewoldt/Lynch

2019: Riewoldt/Lynch

2018: Kennedy/Darling

2015: Buddy/Roughead

2014: Buddy/Roughead

2013: Buddy/Roughead

2008: Buddy/Roughead

2005: Hall/Goodes

2003: Lynch/Brown (young)

2002: Lynch/Brown (young)

2001: Lynch/Brown (young)

2000: Lloyd/Hird


Worse

2023 Pies

2021 Dees

2017 Richmond (Riewoldt on his own)

2016 Dogs

2012 Swans

2010 Pies

2006 Eagles

2004 Port

So whilst it is possible to win flags without star fwds, besides you guys it’s a struggle to win them. All the teams that had “worse” than you only had 1 flag in their “era”. (Except us but we added lynch later)

How terrible is your football knowledge that you got all of the bolded ones wrong?

 

[Mr Meow]

How terrible is your football knowledge that you got all of the bolded ones wrong?

2014 is when they started watching and our formative years usually have inaccurate memories.

 

[TheEscapeClub]

I've watched since the early 2000s.

Cats midfield in 2022 wasn't great. On paper looks good but Danger and Selwood were both well past their prime. Not in the top 30 mids in the comp that year. Tigers dynasty midfield nothing special either once Dusty went forward with Cotchin past his prime.

Eagles forward line in 05 would have to be the weakest. Melbourne 22 not great either.

Swans whole team on paper in 05 minus Goodes and Hall was pretty average. Lots of decent players but few stars.

Hard to find a team with a really weak backline. Good defences seem to be a staple of flag teams.

Danger should have got the NSM in 2022, Geelong managed both him and Selwood perfectly that year after reaching the finals for years and both players being cooked when they got there.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

I've watched since the early 2000s.

Cats midfield in 2022 wasn't great. On paper looks good but Danger and Selwood were both well past their prime. Not in the top 30 mids in the comp that year. Tigers dynasty midfield nothing special either once Dusty went forward with Cotchin past his prime.

Eagles forward line in 05 would have to be the weakest. Melbourne 22 not great either.

Swans whole team on paper in 05 minus Goodes and Hall was pretty average. Lots of decent players but few stars.

Hard to find a team with a really weak backline. Good defences seem to be a staple of flag teams.

Martin, Cotchin, Prestia, Edwards was a very tidy inside midfield foursome.

 

[Consolaçao]

???

Bartel won the Brownlow in 2007 and GAJ in 2009.

Yeah, but apart from those two?

 

[Jim Prideaux]

Fritsch is quality and Ben Brown was still a force back then.

Forward line wise it's hard to be worse than the 2006 Eagles. After Quentin Lynch who is there? Ash Hansen, Steven Armstrong, resting ruck, resting midfielder. Midfielders kicked all the goals for that team.

Ben Brown kicked 44 goals for the dees total, Fritsch averages 1.7 goals a game across his career. That is a workmanlike forward line. Not saying they’re bad, they aren’t. But for a premiership team they are as bad as you’ll find

 

[Mr Meow]

Yeah, but apart from those two?

SJ and Chapman in their peak I'd take over J.Cameron and Stengle now.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Yeah, but apart from those two?

Ablett was robbed in 2010 to be fair. Judd should have been suspended.

Also everyone at the time realised that Cooney winning '08 was a bit of a joke. The reason Ablett didn't win was that the Geelong players took votes off each other all year. The number of votes Geelong amassed as a team in that year's Brownlow count has not been equaled by any side since.

 

[joe444]

Essendon 1993 midfield:
Foll: Somerville, O'Donnell, Bewick
C: Wills, Denham, Olarenshaw.

By Premiership standards ... that's the definition of workmanlike.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Essendon 1993 midfield:
Foll: Somerville, O'Donnell, Bewick
C: Wills, Denham, Olarenshaw.

By Premiership standards ... that's the definition of workmanlike.

Who’s Wills?

 

[DanA]

Yeah exactly 0-2 AAs

Now do the others that I believe are all 3+ AAs. That’s the next tier up. Johnson, C Rioli, Dusty, Betts. They also have numerous other awards on top of that.

They also were considered the best (or one of the best) at their position at some point in the comp. I don’t believe Chapman was ever that, Johnson was considered better and that’s just in his own team.

There is a clear tier difference between Star (with a capital S) and star (with a lower case S) Chapman is the latter.

It’s not a personal Geelong things, it’s a pattern with the CV’s.

Dusty is different. His body of work isn't that special overall perhaps, but his Brownlow year was amazing and he's the ultimate big-game performer. He shouldn't be in a tier with those guys.

Chapman IMO was a better, more consistent player than Cyril Rioli, and did it for longer. He was also a better player overall (for his career) than Eddie Betts but Eddie had a few years as goal kicking forward that were special. I can accept Cyril and Eddie were more flashy, and maybe that Cyril was more important to Hawthorn winning in their premiership years. But if I had the opportunity to draft one of the three today knowing what their output would be. I would draft Chapman without a doubt. He polled more Brownlow votes per game, he had way more possessions, and despite being more a utility forward/mid, maintained a very respectable goals per game average.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Dusty is different. His body of work isn't that special overall perhaps, but his Brownlow year was amazing and he's the ultimate big-game performer. He shouldn't be in a tier with those guys.

Chapman IMO was a better, more consistent player than Cyril Rioli, and did it for longer. He was also a better player overall (for his career) than Eddie Betts but Eddie had a few years as goal kicking forward that were special. I can accept Cyril and Eddie were more flashy, and maybe that Cyril was more important to Hawthorn winning in their premiership years. But if I had the opportunity to draft one of the three today knowing what their output would be. I would draft Chapman without a doubt. He polled more Brownlow votes per game, he had way more possessions, and despite being more a utility forward/mid, maintained a very respectable goals per game average.

Do you really think you had multiple hf/forwards running around better than Betts/Dusty/Rioli in that team?

Idk how you lost a game then tbh.

 

[Chaisa]

This thread seems to suggest that it's way easier to mitigate a meh forward line compared to defence or the midfield.

 

[ZEV]

Essendon 1993 midfield:
Foll: Somerville, O'Donnell, Bewick
C: Wills, Denham, Olarenshaw.

By Premiership standards ... that's the definition of workmanlike.

Michael Long went alright that year and even though he wasn't in peak form you still had Essendon team of the cenury ruck rover Tim Watson lurking about.

 

[ZEV]

Warren Tredrea and Brendon Lade went alright mate.

I’m just going to put this out there… I think we all forgot how good Gavin wanganeen was

 

[Schauermann]

Yes it’s asking a question for each line, I was talking about the fwd line

Not many forward lines (even premiership winning ones) feature Brownlow medalists...

 

[kreuze_missile]

Collingwood 2024.

The worst premiership side ever.

I still have no idea how that list won one.

B+ midfield, the rest is D- or worse.

 

[The Hobo]

I’m just going to put this out there… I think we all forgot how good Gavin wanganeen was

100%, though I was replying specifically about key forwards.

 

[The Hobo]

He started watching football in 2014, I doubt he has seen more than 3 Port matches from 2001-2004 even on replay.

Makes sense, though even a simple google shows Tredders accolades, 4xAA in an era of Jonathan Brown, Pavlich and many other great CHFs.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Not many forward lines (even premiership winning ones) feature Brownlow medalists...

That’s why I also mentioned Coleman’s. They don’t have that either.

 

[STPer18]

Richmond