Society/Culture Why I blame Islam for the fact it's raining today.... part 2

[Chief]

Reminder: This isn't the Israel/Hamas thread. Go to the Israel/Hamas thread if you want to talk about that. Thanks.

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

Part I: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack.1371828/page-47#post-81443295 Thread Rules: Alright. I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread rules update:

From this point if you're going to make a connection between Islam and the crime rate, you need to demonstrate causation in your post. If you do not, I'm going to infract you for the inherent racism in the position you're taking.

 

[Cmarsh]

'Poor decision' around NAPLAN could disadvantage Muslim students

The decision to hold crucial exams during one of the most sacred periods in the Islamic calendar will put young Muslims "at a clear disadvantage", a leading educator says.

www.abc.net.au

I have an idea. Let's instead question an archaic Islamic practice that is forced on minors that results in their suffering.

 

[sr36]

'Poor decision' around NAPLAN could disadvantage Muslim students

The decision to hold crucial exams during one of the most sacred periods in the Islamic calendar will put young Muslims "at a clear disadvantage", a leading educator says.

www.abc.net.au

I have an idea. Let's instead question an archaic Islamic practice that is forced on minors that results in their suffering.

Naplan isn't archaic.

 

[Cmarsh]

Naplan isn't archaic.

Is that your attempt at a diversion?

 

[sr36]

Is that your attempt at a diversion?

I've got no qualms with a cultural practice that teaches resilience, self sacrifice and discipline.

 

[Cmarsh]

I've got no qualms with a cultural practice that teaches resilience, self sacrifice and discipline.

Oh great. An apologist for Islam who isn't capable of critical thinking.

In any other context, denying a minor food or water for long periods of the day, regardless of the environmental conditions, encouraged by parents and the community around them, it would be a child protection report.

But oh no, because it's endorsed by Islam, all is good and well.

 

[Gethelred]

'Poor decision' around NAPLAN could disadvantage Muslim students

The decision to hold crucial exams during one of the most sacred periods in the Islamic calendar will put young Muslims "at a clear disadvantage", a leading educator says.

www.abc.net.au

I have an idea. Let's instead question an archaic Islamic practice that is forced on minors that results in their suffering.

... this is such an odd direction to approach this.

I really hadn't thought about the potential harm in children going through Ramadan's fasting; it's a pretty straightforward criticism to make, and it's a good one. There are reasons why and how one's parents can and should exercise control over their children's diet, but religion shouldn't really be one of them.

But bringing this up in defense(?) of the integrity of NAPLAN testing is an exceedingly weird way to make that argument. NAPLAN is a shit test, for a variety of reasons - more than we can really get into in this thread - and using the integrity of its findings to criticise religious fasting is... easily one of the weirdest flexes I've seen on this forum.

 

[sr36]

... this is such an odd direction to approach this.

I really hadn't thought about the potential harm in children going through Ramadan's fasting; it's a pretty straightforward criticism to make, and it's a good one. There are reasons why and how one's parents can and should exercise control over their children's diet, but religion shouldn't really be one of them.

But bringing this up in defense(?) of the integrity of NAPLAN testing is an exceedingly weird way to make that argument. NAPLAN is a shit test, for a variety of reasons - more than we can really get into in this thread - and using the integrity of its findings to criticise religious fasting is... easily one of the weirdest flexes I've seen on this forum.

Research suggests that the issue with Ramadan fasting isn't teens - it's pregnant women who shouldn't be fasting due to the impact on foetuses - or people with condiitons like diabetes or whom are on medication. Neither of whom are expected to fast, but some of them do.

It's generally not considered unhealthy and has some health benefits:

The whole argument from the "leading educator" is also a crock of shit. Naplan - "Crucial exams" -"high-stakes assessments" wtf?

It only really affects the Year 9 Naplan - not many Year 7s fast - and most schools do it in the morning anyway. And a big chunk of year 9s don't take the tests seriously, because they're not even remotely crucial or high stakes for students.

 

[peetoo]

Could be wrong but fasting for Ramadan is daylight hours.

Not so much a problem in equatorial Regina where the variation from 12 hours is small.

But whe it falls in summer with longer daylight hours. Ouch couldn’t a prophet have forseen this?

 

[Cmarsh]

... this is such an odd direction to approach this.

I really hadn't thought about the potential harm in children going through Ramadan's fasting; it's a pretty straightforward criticism to make, and it's a good one. There are reasons why and how one's parents can and should exercise control over their children's diet, but religion shouldn't really be one of them.

But bringing this up in defense(?) of the integrity of NAPLAN testing is an exceedingly weird way to make that argument. NAPLAN is a shit test, for a variety of reasons - more than we can really get into in this thread - and using the integrity of its findings to criticise religious fasting is... easily one of the weirdest flexes I've seen on this forum.

I never claimed a defence of naplan. My criticism is direct about forcing minors to go on long fasts no matter what the environmental conditions are. It's quite obvious that such a demand is problematic.

 

[Gethelred]

I never claimed a defence of naplan. My criticism is direct about forcing minors to go on long fasts no matter what the environmental conditions are. It's quite obvious that such a demand is problematic.

Then why did you use an article about the fasting prejudicing NAPLAN data to make that point?

That's the sticking point. Couldn't you just have made the point?

 

[Cmarsh]

Then why did you use an article about the fasting prejudicing NAPLAN data to make that point?

That's the sticking point. Couldn't you just have made the point?

Sure. But regardless of what an individual thinks about the efficacy or legitimacy of Naplan, there would be some school students worried about doing the test during this fast month, just because they like to do well at school and tests in general. An enforced religious fast doesn't allow them to perform at their best.

It effects negatively in other areas of life. Imagine trying to participate in sport during some of the hot days we have experienced in this country this month. Couldn't even sit in the stands at the footy without being denied water to try and avoid dehydration during hot days. It really is archaic.

 

[sr36]

Could be wrong but fasting for Ramadan is daylight hours.

Not so much a problem in equatorial Regina where the variation from 12 hours is small.

But whe it falls in summer with longer daylight hours. Ouch couldn’t a prophet have forseen this?

14 hours of sunlight in the brutality of a Saudi summer without even an electric fan would have been just about as tough as it gets to go without water.

 

[Gethelred]

Sure. But regardless of what an individual thinks about the efficacy or legitimacy of Naplan, there would be some school students worried about doing the test during this fast month, just because they like to do well at school and tests in general. An enforced religious fast doesn't allow them to perform at their best.

Those student should then go to their parents and tell them that they don't want to prejudice their NAPLAN results due to religion.

There's also the reality that those children don't exist. The idea that it's the students who care about NAPLAN is so far beyond laughable that it transcends the concept of comedy entirely. Parents, teachers and principals care about NAPLAN; for a student, it's another assessment they'd rather avoid.

It effects negatively in other areas of life. Imagine trying to participate in sport during some of the hot days we have experienced in this country this month. Couldn't even sit in the stands at the footy without being denied water to try and avoid dehydration during hot days. It really is aarchaic.

I agree.

 

[sr36]

Sure. But regardless of what an individual thinks about the efficacy or legitimacy of Naplan, there would be some school students worried about doing the test during this fast month, just because they like to do well at school and tests in general. An enforced religious fast doesn't allow them to perform at their best.

It effects negatively in other areas of life. Imagine trying to participate in sport during some of the hot days we have experienced in this country this month. Couldn't even sit in the stands at the footy without being denied water to try and avoid dehydration during hot days. It really is archaic.

There's actually been heaps of studies on the impact of Ramadan fasting. I think you'll be surprised by the results. Maybe read up on it before you jump to your own assumptions. Here's a couple of short ones - but heaps of academic research in journals:

Is Ramadan fasting related to health outcomes? A review on the related evidence - PMC

Fasting during Ramadan is an Islamic rule. Although previous review studies have assessed the impact of Ramadan on cardiovascular risk factors, athlete performance, diabetes and transplantation, in this study we have appraised some on these reviews ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19932820.2024.2301830#abstract

 

[Cmarsh]

Those student should then go to their parents and tell them that they don't want to prejudice their NAPLAN results due to religion.

There's also the reality that those children don't exist. The idea that it's the students who care about NAPLAN is so far beyond laughable that it transcends the concept of comedy entirely. Parents, teachers and principals care about NAPLAN; for a student, it's another assessment they'd rather avoid.

I agree.

My kids care about doing well in naplan. They have friends that care about doing well in naplan as well. Let's lay off the hyperbole eh?

 

[Gethelred]

My kids care about doing well in naplan. They have friends that care about doing well in naplan as well. Let's lay off the hyperbole eh?

I'm not going to call you or your children liars, but I am certainly going to express a level of scepticism here.

 

[Gough]

As a smoker I was pretty jumpy by the end of a two hour exam.

 

[Cmarsh]

I'm not going to call you or your children liars, but I am certainly going to express a level of scepticism here.

Good for you mate.

 

[Cmarsh]

There's actually been heaps of studies on the impact of Ramadan fasting. I think you'll be surprised by the results. Maybe read up on it before you jump to your own assumptions. Here's a couple of short ones - but heaps of academic research in journals:

Is Ramadan fasting related to health outcomes? A review on the related evidence - PMC

Fasting during Ramadan is an Islamic rule. Although previous review studies have assessed the impact of Ramadan on cardiovascular risk factors, athlete performance, diabetes and transplantation, in this study we have appraised some on these reviews ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19932820.2024.2301830#abstract

Tiny sample size.

I'm sure there would be certain individuals that maintain a level of performance that may be explainable by a placebo effect of having an extreme faith.

Still there would be lots of others that despite their level of faith, are still substantially adversely affected by the enforced fast.

And this would also depend on your circumstances. Imagine not being allowed a drink when you work at a mine, work as an aborist or an electrician in confined spaces like roofs on hot days.

 

[sr36]

Tiny sample size.

I'm sure there would be certain individuals that maintain a level of performance that may be explainable by a placebo effect of having an extreme faith.

Still there would be lots of others that despite their level of faith, are still substantially adversely affected by the enforced fast.

And this would also depend on your circumstances. Imagine not being allowed a drink when you work at a mine, work as an aborist or an electrician in confined spaces like roofs on hot days.

You're anti adults choosing to fast during Ramadan?

Rather than just assuming what would occur - read up on it. If you have access to academic journals - read up on the effects of Ramadan fasting - there's been lots of research done. Deaths is an interesting one - pretty steady overall without a spike during Ramadan, but an increase in accidents countered by a decrease in suicide and homocide - slight uptick in natural deaths.

 

[Cmarsh]

You're anti adults choosing to fast during Ramadan?

Rather than just assuming what would occur - read up on it. If you have access to academic journals - read up on the effects of Ramadan fasting - there's been lots of research done. Deaths is an interesting one - pretty steady overall without a spike during Ramadan, but an increase in accidents countered by a decrease in suicide and homocide - slight uptick in natural deaths.

Yeah sure, it's a "choice". Nah, they do it to be accepted by Islam.

 

[sr36]

I'm not going to call you or your children liars, but I am certainly going to express a level of scepticism here.

Grades 3 and 5 want to do well as their schools tell them it matters and they haven't learnt it doesn't yet. Year 7 are beginning to not care. Year 9 - which is the most relevant year in terms of fasting generally don't care - but the exception is if their parents really care.

Either way - schools do it before lunch as you get better results that way, so fasting isn't particularly relevant. The fasting kids will have mostly had a big breakfst before sunrise and will be better off in that sense than most of those not fasting - many of who will have skipped breakfast. The Naplan link is just a fluff piece - not a story at all.

 

[sr36]

Yeah sure, it's a "choice". Nah, they do it to be accepted by Islam.

Lets ban Christmas for the financial hardship that it puts people through - pretty clearly not a choice. Same with footy - culturally expected where I grew up - think of the poor Carlton fans.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

'Poor decision' around NAPLAN could disadvantage Muslim students

The decision to hold crucial exams during one of the most sacred periods in the Islamic calendar will put young Muslims "at a clear disadvantage", a leading educator says.

www.abc.net.au

I have an idea. Let's instead question an archaic Islamic practice that is forced on minors that results in their suffering.

It can often work out that children who score well in English as a second language, get into university easier than our current curriculum of "English" despite being nowhere near as literate in english.

 

[liz]

It can often work out that children who score well in English as a second language, get into university easier than our current curriculum of "English" despite being nowhere near as literate in english.

That’s a pretty general, unsupported, contextless comment that doesn’t have much to do with the article quoted.